Yet more questions

[yrtalien]

I have a question regarding this:
"Logrus Combat and Manipulation. YOU may
summon the Logrus and shape its force into useful shapes,
extensions that are far more powerful, and more flexible, than
normal Shadow matter. These extensions of Logrus operate
with a Strength that is equivalent to the Psyche of the L o p s
Master who controls them."

I've always translated this as telekinesis, but I read a write-up that made it seem more like creating items from the logrus... like shaping it into a sword...

How do you all read it?

2nd question:  
1. The Player is Far Superior to the
Opposition.
2. The Player is Clearly Better than the
opposition.
3. The Player is Very Close to the
Opposition's.
4. The Player is Significantly Inferior to
the opposition.
5. The Player is Far Worse than the
OppOSitiOn.

I'm re-reading the book so I may not have run across the answer yet but I'm wondering how most people define Far Superior, Clearly better, Very Close, Significantly inferior, and far worse...

Sorry again for asking so many questions
Thank you
Oscar

[scottishstorm]

I have a question regarding this:
"Logrus Combat and Manipulation. YOU may
summon the Logrus and shape its force into useful shapes,
extensions that are far more powerful, and more flexible, than
normal Shadow matter. These extensions of Logrus operate
with a Strength that is equivalent to the Psyche of the L o p s
Master who controls them."

I've always translated this as telekinesis, but I read a write-up that made it seem more like creating items from the logrus... like shaping it into a sword...

It's a physical force.  Whether it's visible or not is probably up to your individual game (and/or the specific Logrus Master).  Logrus tendrils become a physical part of the user.  Thus, if they touch something "bad" (ie: the Pattern or a trump), the Logrus Master gets crispyfried!

The visibiltyy of Logrus tendrils is subjective to opinion or descretion, I believe.  Some GMs may rule that the Logrus is, by nature, visible when manifested as tendrils.  Other GMs may decide it's not.  Or, perhaps the Logrus master can choose whether or not their tendrils are visible (both can have advantages).  It may also be possible that other powers can help determine the visibility of Logrus.  However, tendrils are always visible under a lens (Logrus, Pattern, Broken Pattern)

How do you all read it?

2nd question:  
1. The Player is Far Superior to the
Opposition.
2. The Player is Clearly Better than the
opposition.
3. The Player is Very Close to the
Opposition's.
4. The Player is Significantly Inferior to
the opposition.
5. The Player is Far Worse than the
OppOSitiOn.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.  The above is in reference to direct attribute comparisons (strength vs strength, psyche vs psyche, warfare vs warfare, or some combination thereof  and perhaps including endurance as well)

Attributes are on a bit of a sliding scale.  For instance, a 0 (Amber rank) is "clearly better" than -10 (Chaos) rank, despite being only 10 points difference... while the difference between 125 and 110 is most likely "very close"

The DRPG helps you get a "feel" at how points compare to each other.  There are also judgment calls.  Someone with Str 20, War 20, End 20 would probably fight comparably well in the longterm as someone with Str 0, War 45, End 0.  But, in a duel when both characters are refreshed, the warfare-oriented character likely has an advantage unless strength is brought into play.

[yrtalien]

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The above is in reference to direct attribute comparisons (strength vs strength, psyche vs psyche, warfare vs warfare, or some combination thereof and perhaps including endurance as well)

Attributes are on a bit of a sliding scale. For instance, a 0 (Amber rank) is "clearly better" than -10 (Chaos) rank, despite being only 10 points difference... while the difference between 125 and 110 is most likely "very close"

Thanks for you quick reply Scottishstorm.  What I was asking you sort of answered I was wondering what other people that run the game consider "Clearly better" or "Very Close".  I was interested to find that you think of 125 and 110 as very close. I'm trying to define these ranges for my own game and hoping that input from other will help


Thanks again
Oscar

[scottishstorm]

Hi Oscar, you're quite welcome

What I meant by the above is that attribute values are relative to each other.  In a sense, there is a sort of "diminishing returns" for attributes, but only when comparing against people with similar numbers.  One can look at this a few different ways.  For instance, you could go by something similar to this and classify attribute values:

   -25 Human
-10 Chaos
0-24 Low Amber
25-49 High Amber
50-80 Heroic Amber
81+ Legendary Amber

Possibly one more:
   120+ Exalted Amber


Though, I don't really think a chart is necessary.  Just compare what two characters have invested in an attribute and weigh things accordingly.  Imagine Mister 0 strength fighting Mister 50 strength.  This would be the proverbial one punch knockout.  The victory is all-but-assured.  It's fast and probably clean.  The 50 strength character barely has to make an effort.

Next, consider Mister 50 strength vs Mister 100 strength.  The 100 strength character has the obvious  advantage, of course, but it's not quite so easy.  Both characters are heavy hitters in their own right.  Instead of a single knockout punch, the fight is likely longer and somewhat messier, but the 100 strength character is still irrefutable for a win.

Finally, look at a 100-strength character vs a 150-strength character.  Now, both are "legendary" (at least) strength characters.  This could be a "Dalt vs Gerard" type of fight.  And, the fight could be brutal and long before it's resolved.  Again, though, the higher stat is most likely to win.

Incidentally, this is how Oberon (as Ganelon) could successfully pin Gerard, IMO.    Hypothetically, let's say that Gerard's strength is 35 more points than Oberon's, but both have a strength attribute of at least 80.  If Oberon was 0 and Gerard 35, it'd be a clear win for Gerard.  But, that was not the case.  Both were veritable titans (not to mention Ganelon/Oberon had clear elements of surprise & deception on his side).

(for all three examples, suppose that other attributes are roughly equal and there are no other powers or other drastic influences in play)

[jibbajibba]

for ease of use and 'image' I tend to run Logrus tendrils just like Witchblade, Darkness, Spawn type things so you can form the logrus into a key to open a lock use it like a giant tentacle, make a sword out of it. Remember its Strength will equiv to Psych but its warfare is still warfare of the user.

I find this is the most fun way to run Logrus tendrils.

I agree with Scotishstorms take on attributes. Attributes are a law of deminishing returns. think of it like a log function or a square function or whatever so 100 is to 81 what 25 is to 16

[Croaker]

Attributes are on a bit of a sliding scale.  For instance, a 0 (Amber rank) is "clearly better" than -10 (Chaos) rank, despite being only 10 points difference... while the difference between 125 and 110 is most likely "very close"

Well, using ranks tend to solve this problem somewhat.

If, say, 5 rank of difference is a great advantage, you don't have to worry if you've got Benedict vs Dalt or Merlin vs Julia, nor do you have to worry about points. All that matters are ranks.

for ease of use and 'image' I tend to run Logrus tendrils just like Witchblade, Darkness, Spawn type things so you can form the logrus into a key to open a lock use it like a giant tentacle, make a sword out of it. Remember its Strength will equiv to Psych but its warfare is still warfare of the user.

I find this is the most fun way to run Logrus tendrils.

Same thing here, although I make the "quality" of the shapes a function of expertise with logrus and psyche

[scottishstorm]

Well, using ranks tend to solve this problem somewhat.

Hmm.  Ideally, I agree.

By this, I mean I agree in the ideal of ranks, but I likely have issue in the practicality of them.  Regardless, though, ranks do solve this problem (or at least reframe it).

The rant about ranks has been done.  I'll simply add that a rank system is beautiful in concept and with a stagnant player base (no one new comes in, no one leaves).  Ranks do tend to muddle things when new players are introduced, though, or when others leave the game.

Again, this has been discussed.  I'll hit the highlights just so that any who missed the thread can get caught up.  A new player to the game is alrady at at disadvantage, points-wise.  He/she is then set at the task of buying to marked ranks.  This restricts character generation a little and makes things more costly.  Likewise, if a ranked player leaves the game, that character's ranks are still in the mix.  It can be awkward determining what to do. (Kill off the character and everyone gets a "promotion"?  Keep the characters as an NPC and keep tabs on their improvements or stagnation, continuing that rank succession).  Points are, frankly, easier and keep a sort of consistency within the DRPG itself.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Me personally, it depends on the special effect of the Logrus Master, but in general, they are visible; black, at higher levels they can become invisible or even glow the power of the user, fiery, elemental-like., or black, pulsating abyss style, or whatever.
 
Here is a useful idea page too...
http://home.comcast.net/~arrefmak/logrus.htm

and...
http://home.comcast.net/~arrefmak/

always good ideas for Amber

[yrtalien]

Thanks guys.  You're really helping me to nail down a feel for this game. The next thing thst'd come up is one of the players is interested in what Brand was able to do as a "Living Trump".

I know in the ADRPG book it's potentially described (under Brand) as Exalted Trump Mastery [140 points] and in Shadow Knight (under Jurt) as Living Trump [100 points].

theres no real write up for what it does mechanically but I'm seeing it as a Trump version of Logrus, able to shift through infinite Shadow and establish contact, able to "move to" or "bring to" and able to shuffle through any existing Trump image.

My player is eager to pursue (of course less than a week ago he was eager to pursue the Pattern : ) this idea and I want to encourage him.  I'm trying to come up with what I would charge for this ability since both "in book" descriptions have different values.  Of course you could attribute Brand's more expensive version to the fact it can't be wiped away by walking the Pattern or Logrus.

Have any of you ever had a player eager to expand his Trump abilities to this extent, how much did you feel it was worth, and is it too powerful?  Although I wouldnt want him to start with that ability, I kind of feel it should be developed in-game after getting a feel for what he likes about and really wants to build in Trump, it doesn't seem overpowering...

This game is ages away and my players are already deeply involved in thinking through what they want their caharcters to be like.  Hell one spent about an hour talking about the Shadow he was raised in.  Next to Nobilis I'm really liking this game.

Again thanks for all your help and feel free to tell me to shut up if I get annoying with my questions

Oscar

[scottishstorm]

You and your player may want to seriously look at Advanced Trump Artistry.  Granted, it's no Living Trump, but the power-set has a LOT of potential for both style and personal power.  It may be my favourite advanced power!

Cardless Contact:  Someone steals your trumps  or you're otherwise left without them?  You can use nearly your full range of abilities... naked if need be.  At the base, you still have the "cool factor" of using trumps without a card!

Trump Gate: This is seriously useful and potent.  Its potential for assassination and nuisance is vast (ie: you have a trump of an enemy's bedroom?  Occasionally send something nasty to climb into bed with him at night.  Heck, for that matter, it might be possible to open up a meteor storm into the dude's bedroom!).  This is also far faster and more reliable than Pattern for transporting troops.  


Granted, it's still no Living Trump.  Then again, it doesn't have the drawbacks that were shared by Brand & Jurt, either  (potential for mental & physical instability, for starters).  The Fount of Power replaces part of the character with the Fount's essence.  While this never came up, it could hold restrictions with their usage of Pattern/Logrus because they're no longer fully Amberite or Chaosian.

Another quick note regarding "exalted" powers:  There is a lot of hidden potential within the existing powers.  I'd caution against incorporating exalted-level powers (even for NPCs) until at least some of that potential is realized and unlocked by your playerbase.  Even then, come up with your own versions.  There are as many varieties of Living Trump as people can dream up.  In Brand's case, it was thought to be an extension of his Trump Artisty power.  In Jurt's, it was a power unto itself.

[yrtalien]

You and your player may want to seriously look at Advanced Trump Artistry.  Granted, it's no Living Trump, but the power-set has a LOT of potential for both style and personal power.  It may be my favourite advanced power!

Cardless Contact:  Someone steals your trumps  or you're otherwise left without them?  You can use nearly your full range of abilities... naked if need be.  At the base, you still have the "cool factor" of using trumps without a card!

Sorry my brain runs ahead of my fingers and I don't clearly type what I mean.  The player is starting with Advanced Trump Artistry and no other power.  He wouldn't be looking at gaining Exalted Trump Artistry or Living Trump ( a bath in the Fount) except as the culmination of a great deal of in-game effort (most likely near the end of our 3 month summer-long game).

To try and give this player a feel for the game (he's never played or read the novels before) We played a short game last night.  The player loved the idea of Cardless Contact since he spent the majority of the game separated from his Trump deck, he embraced the idea of trump Sketches and in the end of our 1 night game he even created a Trump Trap to try and ensnare his enemy.  Ac omplete reverse for someone who a little more than a week ago was looking at me saying Trump sounded silly.

At the end of the evening he was talking about how much he enjoyed Trump and how he had come across Jurt's "Living Trump" write up while reading Shadow Knight and wondered if he could eventually progress to something similar to that.  I explained that Exalted Powers were somewhat individual but if he thought Living Trump was a good base we could work on it... which brings me to why I posted. : )  I was infected by my players eagerness to think through his eventual growth in the power and was wondering if anyone else had allowed players this level of ability and if so how much (pointwise) they charged for it.

I should have been clearer that this was something that would be worked toward over the course of our short summer game.  Sorry I wasn't clear

[gabriel_ss4u]

You and your player may want to seriously look at Advanced Trump Artistry.  Granted, it's no Living Trump, but the power-set has a LOT of potential for both style and personal power.  It may be my favourite advanced power!

Cardless Contact:  Someone steals your trumps  or you're otherwise left without them?  You can use nearly your full range of abilities... naked if need be.  At the base, you still have the "cool factor" of using trumps without a card!

Trump Gate: This is seriously useful and potent.  Its potential for assassination and nuisance is vast (ie: you have a trump of an enemy's bedroom?  Occasionally send something nasty to climb into bed with him at night.  Heck, for that matter, it might be possible to open up a meteor storm into the dude's bedroom!).  This is also far faster and more reliable than Pattern for transporting troops.  


Granted, it's still no Living Trump.  Then again, it doesn't have the drawbacks that were shared by Brand & Jurt, either  (potential for mental & physical instability, for starters).  The Fount of Power replaces part of the character with the Fount's essence.  While this never came up, it could hold restrictions with their usage of Pattern/Logrus because they're no longer fully Amberite or Chaosian.

Another quick note regarding "exalted" powers:  There is a lot of hidden potential within the existing powers.  I'd caution against incorporating exalted-level powers (even for NPCs) until at least some of that potential is realized and unlocked by your playerbase.  Even then, come up with your own versions.  There are as many varieties of Living Trump as people can dream up.  In Brand's case, it was thought to be an extension of his Trump Artisty power.  In Jurt's, it was a power unto itself.

Well put...!!!
Let them, and you... get the feel for what those powers can do...
Advanced Trump Artistry is nothing to sneeze at.
Shadow Knight is a valuable resource.

[Croaker]

I was infected by my players eagerness to think through his eventual growth in the power and was wondering if anyone else had allowed players this level of ability and if so how much (pointwise) they charged for it.

Well, I had one player become kinda that, but with the logrus. Of course, he also became its slave, so the deal wasn't that great.

[Klaus]

Have any of you ever had a player eager to expand his Trump abilities to this extent, how much did you feel it was worth, and is it too powerful?  

This Trump Partial Powers list may provide some inspiration for how to develop high-level Trump powers. It still isn't precisely Living Trump but it has some extra abilities as well and True Trump Memory (the ability to instantly Trump anyone you've ever met or anywhere you've ever been) is pretty close to Living Trump.

[RPGPundit]

I've always thought that the Logrus can be kept invisible when it came to using the "logrus lens" for simple observation, but as soon as you wanted to actually manipulate stuff, you had to make it visible; though you could try to be sneaky about it.

RPGPundit