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Author Topic: Walking the Pattern  (Read 1995 times)

James McMurray

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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2006, 05:50:48 PM »
Quote from: finarvyn
Here's where we go back to the matter of trust. You have to trust the fact that the GM does not "want" to kill you. If you do something stupid to the point where the GM has to kill you, that's your fault.


Except that in a game with no dice rolls and no preset conditions that will cause death on the pattern other than points which you can avoid, he is never "forced" to kill you. Which means he has to want it to happen. Whether he wants it because he thinks you "need to be taught a lesson," "it's better for the story" or whatever, he still has to want it to happen.

Otha

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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2006, 06:01:51 PM »
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice to have an option where you didn't HAVE to do that, if you didn't want to?
 

James McMurray

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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2006, 06:07:55 PM »
I'm not sure I get your meaning. A GM never has to kill a player in any game. Or at least, any game I've ever played, there are probably some out there that don't give the GM absolute power.

Whether he should kill them or not is a different discusion altogether, and not really tied to the pattern. I think I'll start a new thread for that.

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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2006, 09:18:22 PM »
Quote from: James McMurray
Except that in a game with no dice rolls and no preset conditions that will cause death on the pattern other than points which you can avoid, he is never "forced" to kill you. Which means he has to want it to happen. Whether he wants it because he thinks you "need to be taught a lesson," "it's better for the story" or whatever, he still has to want it to happen.


He has to decide it SHOULD happen, which is a little bit different.

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James McMurray

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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2006, 09:33:00 PM »
Thank you for that pointless semantic drivel. UIf he doesn't want it to happen, it won't. Isn't that part and parcel of the GM having all the power? If he doesn't want it, he has the power to stop it. Even if he just wants it because he thinks it "should happen" that's still a choice being made.

finarvyn

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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2006, 11:12:52 PM »
In one of my campaigns, the characters had spent a lot of time trying to find something called "the pool of death" and were told by several NPCs that to drink these waters meant instant death to anyone. When they found the pool, one of the characters just had to try a sip.

As a GM, I'm in a tough spot. I don't want to kill a character, but I should do so anyway. It's not a semantic nit-pick, it's a direct cause-effect of a character's actions. I suppose I could have ruled that the character spilled the water before she could drink it, or given the hint that other PCs ought to knock the cup from her hand, but I didn't. I also could have invented some lame "well, hee, hee, you're an Amberite so it didn't kill you" thing, but all that would do is remove any fear of character death from all of my players. I don't want them to die; I want them to think that they might die at any moment if they screw up. There's a difference.

The GM has "all the power" as far as the universe goes -- with the exception of player character actions. As soon as the GM gains that power the game is over. Railroading puppet characters into predetermined actions isn't a RPG, it's a novel.
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2006, 12:46:14 AM »
Quote from: James McMurray
Thank you for that pointless semantic drivel. UIf he doesn't want it to happen, it won't. Isn't that part and parcel of the GM having all the power? If he doesn't want it, he has the power to stop it. Even if he just wants it because he thinks it "should happen" that's still a choice being made.


You know, you really really need to stop opening every single fucking reply to my posts with an insult. Either that, or you would do well to stop replying to my posts altogether.

If you can't grasp that there's a gap the size of the fucking grand canyon between a GM willy-nilly killing PCs because its his fancy and a GM deciding to kill a PC because that PC SHOULD die in the game, and NOT out of the perceived bias you seem to always assume GMs will have toward the irrational, then that's your fucking problem. And it is a serious problem. You probably won't be capable of playing Amber if that's what you think all GMs are like.

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James McMurray

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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2006, 10:17:40 AM »
Quote from: finarvyn
As a GM, I'm in a tough spot. I don't want to kill a character, but I should do so anyway. It's not a semantic nit-pick, it's a direct cause-effect of a character's actions.


Right, but as you've got complete power that death had to flow from your desires. In this case it was the desire for a consistency in the game setting, letting them know you weren't messing around, or whatever. But the death was because you wanted something more then you wanted them to live.

Quote
You know, you really really need to stop opening every single fucking reply to my posts with an insult. Either that, or you would do well to stop replying to my posts altogether.


You're showing your inability to read again. I reply to your posts with insults when your posts come from a standpoint that deserves to be insulted (usually your need to state how superior you are). As such, not every post I reply with has an insult in it.

Quote
If you can't grasp that there's a gap the size of the fucking grand canyon between a GM willy-nilly killing PCs because its his fancy and a GM deciding to kill a PC because that PC SHOULD die in the game, and NOT out of the perceived bias you seem to always assume GMs will have toward the irrational, then that's your fucking problem. And it is a serious problem. You probably won't be capable of playing Amber if that's what you think all GMs are like.


1) When did I say anything about GMs killing willy-nilly because it's their fancy? I said the GM must want the death to happen, not that every time the GM gets a wild hair people are going to die.

2) When did I say anything about irrational killing? I never said anything about the causes of the deaths. Any motivations you draw for deaths mentioned by me are completely imagined.

3) Can you even read, or does every post you see twist itself into what you think it says rather then what it actually says? When did I ever even give you a hint of what types of GMs I've had, or what I think GMing should be like.

3a) If you could read, and had a memory, then you would know exactly how I GM and how the others in my group GM. You would know that I favor fairness over all things first and foremost. You would know that secondary to that I favor a rational world with traceable cause and effect. The players may not always know exactly why an NPC did something, because they won't have all the information. But I always will.

4) Please stop replying to my posts with rants, especially unfounded ones. I believe if you'll restrict yourself to replying to the things I say instead of the things you wish/think I'd said these exchanges would go much smoother. If you could couple that with refraining from carrying on about how great you are, how great your gaming style is, and how inferior anyone that doesn't agree with it is, we'd probably end up as friends eventually.

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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2006, 12:28:41 PM »
Ok, James, you know what? I am going to choose, from this moment onwards, to sincerely believe that you are being honest with me, when you say that your decision to be insulting to me is not meant to be an intentional effort to destabilize this forum, and it really is that you have some kind of bizarre autistic sense of humour, and that you really only hurl these insults at me for your own gratification, and not because you're desperately desperately hoping that everyone else will think you're awfully clever.

Also, I will choose to believe that you're not TRYING to be in a pissing match with me, you just can't help it.

So you know what? I'm going to help you out. I'll be helping you, and the rest of this forum, by making sure that you get to enjoy your little jokes in private and not concern yourself in the least about anyone else being impressed or unimpressed by them; and helping you by making sure that you don't have to worry about "accidentally" trying to get into a dick-waving contest with me.

My advice to you? STOP DOING both of these things. If you really honestly don't know how, then stop replying to any of my posts, period.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
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Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
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James McMurray

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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2006, 12:37:02 PM »
Ummm.... Ok. I didn't realize that pointing out when you're wrong is getting into a dick waving contest. The entire point of my last post was that your statements about my game style, what I've said, and how I post are wrong. There were no insults in them, just me saying that you're wrong, and that you apparently don't read what I post because you misrepresent it in your replies.

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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2006, 01:27:33 PM »
Quote from: James McMurray
Ummm.... Ok. I didn't realize that pointing out when you're wrong is getting into a dick waving contest. The entire point of my last post was that your statements about my game style, what I've said, and how I post are wrong. There were no insults in them, just me saying that you're wrong, and that you apparently don't read what I post because you misrepresent it in your replies.


"Thank you for that pointless semantic drivel"

"I reply to your posts with insults when your posts come from a standpoint that deserves to be insulted"

"you'll learn if you're here for a while that RPGPundit..."

" But here in your tiny little kingdom..."

" Again, your persecution complex is flaring up"

And that's just in the last couple of days, AFTER you claimed you would stop.

Obviously, you're having some kind of a "Beta male struggling for Alpha" thing going on here. You really ought to stop, or you might find yourself becoming a pretty,  pretty girl.

...Just remember, I gave you a half-dozen warnings and tried to give you as much room as I could.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

James McMurray

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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2006, 01:41:15 PM »
I guess we have differing ideas of what an insult is. I don't view a statement of fact as an insult: semantics are pointless in a debate, as they're just a means of deflecting the topic away from the actual subject and into a debate about words. You do act like I tell people you act, unless you're trying to claim that you don't insult people with different views? This forum is a tiny drop in the ocean that is the internet. RPG Forums are a microblip, and this is therefor a microblip of a microblip. That's not an insult, I hope the place will eventually grow much larger, but right now there's a very small number of active members compared to other larger forums. And funally, you do quite frequently claim persecution. There is, in your mind at least, an entire war being waged by people that want to persecute you and your way of gaming.

Are you honestly going to try and claim that any of that was not true?

SunBoy

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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2006, 03:07:27 PM »
Would the two of you PLEASE get a room?
"Real randomness, I've discovered, is the result of two or more role-players interacting"

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