Trumps of objects...

[weilide]

The only example I can think of is Luke contacting Werewindle via trump but that seems to be a fairly unusual situation pertaining to a quite uncommon object.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Two reasons.
Secondarily, because I can't recall any trumps OF an object in the stories.
But primarily, because I see how this could be a really really overbalancing factor in favor of Trump power. It would, for starters, make conjuration all but useless.

RPGPundit

nah...
I don't agree.
Conjuration is a different power and can be combined with things for better use. To say what you did is a bit too all-inclusive.
40 pts vs 20 pts is a big difference too.
You sound like you had a Trump master run amok & scared you.
(just kidding)
I see the 2 as 2 different powers that could in a different way do similar things, but have their own advantages.
Now if Conjuration cost 30 pts, i guess you'd have a point.

[jibbajibba]

nah...
I don't agree.
Conjuration is a different power and can be combined with things for better use. To say what you did is a bit too all-inclusive.
40 pts vs 20 pts is a big difference too.
You sound like you had a Trump master run amok & scared you.
(just kidding)
I see the 2 as 2 different powers that could in a different way do similar things, but have their own advantages.
Now if Conjuration cost 30 pts, i guess you'd have a point.

But on the topic of conjuration ... You can grab an item with logrus, you can shadow walk to it so why not create it via trump. Conjuration as a power is already compromised in that fashion so its moot.
For me Conjuration is an odd little power. Of all the powers its the only one that doesn't appear at all in the novels. It does nothing unique that you can not do with other powers. Its more expensive that sorcery which is a far more flexible and useful power.
I love Conjuration.

Conjuration is unique because its solely a roleplaying power. The only reason to have it is because you want to roleplay a guy that creates stuff. Maybe stuff imbued with pattern maybe advanced with high compelling but stuff.
In the novels sorcerers would have conjuration as an extra power. So the 5th micro spell should be conjuration or whatever... but that would be insane.

[scottishstorm]

You can grab an item with logrus, you can shadow walk to it so why not create it via trump.

Hmm.

Your mileage may vary, but here's how I look at things.  Conjuration can quite literally create something from nothing.  While trump is all about determining what makes something that already exists significant and gaining an accurate impression of it, so it can be made into a trump image.

This probably means that 'trumps of desire' are impossible, incidentally... unless one takes the attitude that simply by accepting that such-and-such a place exists makes it exist.  It's a "chicken or the egg" argument.

[scottishstorm]

I just had a thought.  A TA can create objects that somehow utilize the "power of trump" (trump-powered artefacts).  Perhaps THIS is the argument for making a trump of an object.  Getting back to the fridge example, the TA must first 'empower' that refrigerator with trump before being able to make a trump image of it.

[weilide]

Another possible take on the business is that in order for trumps of people to work the trump artist must first have an impression of the target's psyche. Objects have no psyches and therefore trumps of them are impossible. Of course, we know from the novels that trumps for places are common enough so one would have to cook up some reason as to why places work but objects do not. It's interesting to consider the ramifications of places / shadows having psychic signatures...

[RPGPundit]

But on the topic of conjuration ... You can grab an item with logrus, you can shadow walk to it so why not create it via trump. Conjuration as a power is already compromised in that fashion so its moot.
For me Conjuration is an odd little power. Of all the powers its the only one that doesn't appear at all in the novels. It does nothing unique that you can not do with other powers. Its more expensive that sorcery which is a far more flexible and useful power.
I love Conjuration.

One could argue that there are instances of conjuration in the books, particularly in the Merlin saga.  Mandor seems to conjure up things.

Conjuration is unique because its solely a roleplaying power. The only reason to have it is because you want to roleplay a guy that creates stuff. Maybe stuff imbued with pattern maybe advanced with high compelling but stuff.
In the novels sorcerers would have conjuration as an extra power. So the 5th micro spell should be conjuration or whatever... but that would be insane.

I don't agree that Conjuration is only useful as character fluff; the difference between conjuration and finding stuff out in shadow is that conjuration guarantees a more or less "hassle free" access to items of power. In other words, yes, you can go out into shadow to try to find the 4-point damage sword or whatever, but the way I run things at least, if an item is out there, it was there for some reason: someone created it, someone owns it, someone left it behind, it might be guarded, or cursed, or have other unexpected features and complications.
On the other hand, if you are literally MAKING an item, you're safe from all that, at least.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

The way I see it trumps of places can work, because you have to GO there. A trump artist cannot make a trump of a place and then bring the place to him, he has to go to the place.
You could make a trump of an armoury, for example, and then go there to get weapons.
But it seems to me a fundamentally different thing to make a trump of a magic sword and then just be able to bring it to you.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

One could argue that there are instances of conjuration in the books, particularly in the Merlin saga.  Mandor seems to conjure up things.



I don't agree that Conjuration is only useful as character fluff; the difference between conjuration and finding stuff out in shadow is that conjuration guarantees a more or less "hassle free" access to items of power. In other words, yes, you can go out into shadow to try to find the 4-point damage sword or whatever, but the way I run things at least, if an item is out there, it was there for some reason: someone created it, someone owns it, someone left it behind, it might be guarded, or cursed, or have other unexpected features and complications.
On the other hand, if you are literally MAKING an item, you're safe from all that, at least.

RPGPundit

Well.. first I get eh impression that mandor is using sorcery and or Logrus to assemble the meal. Certainly when a Logrus master wants something they just reach out a tendril and grab it. s for finding items in shadow i think you are nerfing pattern a bit if you don't allow ...

I alter the colour of the leaves slightly and then as the path turns it opens up into a clearing. There in the centre is a stone and sticking up from it is a blade...

or

I drive into the courtyard and park the merc. Then as I approach the museum I delete the security cameras and the fence. I reach up to the doors and open them. Hastening through the Egyptian gallery I arrive at the Armoury...

You could throw in a shadow guard or even animate a mummy but I am an Amberite so they don't pose much of a threat.

Consider some major items in the books that we assume were created. The Spikards, pattern swords maybe Mandor's Balls. There is no indication from Merlin that he could not create a Spikard its just it would take time. The impression is that its part of the sorcerers bag of tricks. The pattern swords are it seems are forged , perhaps in certain location , the bottom steps of the stair to Tir or whatever, but we do not get the impression that a particualr power was brought to bear. The impression is that Mandor's Balls are 'an idiosyncratic magic' and perhaps they were imbued with power when he walked the Logrus...

If I were designing Amber from scratch I would definitely make Conjuration a power path within Sorcery (working on a partial power model) and probably make the various power steps based on the points so for 5 you can imbue a 1 point power, for 10 a 2 point, for 15 a 4 for 20 an 8 (but needs to be backed with a 'true' powersource). I have approached this in my current game where you buy base Magick for 10 then you can take Sorcery partials or Conjuration partials. I just kept the name conjuration as specific to one path.

So just let guys make trumps of items if they like what harm can it do

[weilide]

Perhaps my impressions were colored by the ADRPG book but I have always taken Mandor's "culinary magic" to be something distinctive in part because he remarks that he has devoted consider time to the practice recently, which would seem to suggest it is something more than simple Logrus proficiency. After all, Merlin does not otherwise remark about Mandor being generally speedy at grabbing things with the Logrus. Later on, when Dworkin similarly produces a meal in an instant, Merlin immediately compares him to Mandor in that respect. Of course, whether or not the act is ultimately powered the Logrus is in a sense a separate issue; as a practical matter, it seems to be a somewhat specialized skill.

[charis]

I think Trumping an object is okay, though if it was at all held by someone there would be a kind of psyche contest to see if it could be pulled away (maybe even resulting in strength if the Trump was held long enough and the connection began to become more real on both ends).

Also, if the object changed in any fashion, damaged or painted or some such, I would consider it to have changed from when it was originally drawn and the Trump would no longer have a connection and would be a dead Trump, referencing back to Merlin's comments on being unable to make Trumps of places that constantly change.

This is slightly off topic, but does anyone else think that the 2 days time it takes for a Trump artist to make a Trump is really long compared to Trumps drawn in the book? Merlin at one point makes a Trump in less than a half hour. At first I thought this was maybe a Trump sketch, but Fiona later uses it as a normal Trump.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Also, if the object changed in any fashion, damaged or painted or some such, I would consider it to have changed from when it was originally drawn and the Trump would no longer have a connection and would be a dead Trump, referencing back to Merlin's comments on being unable to make Trumps of places that constantly change.

This is slightly off topic, but does anyone else think that the 2 days time it takes for a Trump artist to make a Trump is really long compared to Trumps drawn in the book? Merlin at one point makes a Trump in less than a half hour. At first I thought this was maybe a Trump sketch, but Fiona later uses it as a normal Trump.

I this this is inaccurate, is that to say if an Amberite or whoever the trump is made of were to get a hair cut/ grow a beard, lose a limb, the trump wouldn't work?
I think it your cup was painted, it should not stop the cup-trump from working... perhaps make it a bit harder... ok, and I think you should not really feel any 'contact' or anything from an item trump unless it has a psyche.

I think the time for making a trump should vary, on how well you know the subject, what/who the subject is, and how talented a trump artist you are.
If i were to draw my father, i think it should take a day or slightly less, my aunt, perhaps 2 days, my fav. cup, maybe 15 min. a basic weapon I never held, a day... unless it's a sketch, then ...i'd say 15 min. or so... how much time you put in is how good (or how less likely to fail) the item is.

[weilide]

I don't believe that there is a distinction made in the novels between proper trumps and trump sketches -- I think that's something that first appears in ADRPG.

[charis]

I don't believe that there is a distinction made in the novels between proper trumps and trump sketches -- I think that's something that first appears in ADRPG.

I think they are using the -sketch- that Dworkin made on the wall in Corwin's cell. Then again, that was probably an actual Trump come to think of it, since he took the time to make it and it was still functioning until Corwin went and cleaned it up. Or I think he went back and cleaned it up laterwards...

I this this is inaccurate, is that to say if an Amberite or whoever the trump is made of were to get a hair cut/ grow a beard, lose a limb, the trump wouldn't work?

Good point!

[gabriel_ss4u]

thanks...
and welcome charis.