Trumps of objects...

[yrtalien]

Creating Trumps. This involves creating a card
representing some particular person or place or object. When
the user concentrates on the card there will be a psychic bond
between the two.

Now, it says you can create a Trump of an object.  Can someone tell me how that would work?  Can I create a trump of the Jewel of Judgement and snatch it off Random's kneck or out of Coral's eye or off a tabletop?  Can I step through to where it is?  Can I view what's around it?  Can I follow it as it's being carried through Shadow?

Thanks
Oscar

[Xenon]

hm, i see two possibilities here. mainly that you could trump any psychic artifact. the other being the idea of an item (probably trump-powered) that acted as a mobile destination for a place trump.

you could not just trump the jewel though- you would have to fight random for it, with his majesty having full use of the jewel's powers during the fight. from a tabletop, the jewel may decide to fight you with its own powers (similar to a construct), and the fact that chaos never stole it by trump.... I would say any trumping of the jewel may well end up contacting the ORIGINAL owner of the eye...

[yrtalien]

The Jewel of Judgement was just an example I used.  Let me try another: I found this pretty ring, exquisite in detail, but normal in every other way. I create a Trump of the ring, not the room it's in, just the ring... maybe on a green background.  

Later I give the ring to a trusted friend and send him on his way.  Can I Trump to the ring?  Can I bring the ring to me?  Can I establish a link with the ring and see who is wearing it (scrying sort of)?

Oscar

[scottishstorm]

I've seen a refrigerator trump.  The fellow kept a well-stocked fridge and it came up that both he & a buddy had a hard day.. no intention of leaving their current location and both wanted a beer.  The trump artist activated his refrigerator trump, mimed opening the refrigerator door and fishes out four bottles of cold suds, mimed closing the door.  That was the end of it.

[gabriel_ss4u]

fridge trump - good idea, I've used such in the past.

I'd say, you could trump the item, but if 'possession' of it is had by someone else, you may have to wrestle it from them. (or use some other means of fenagelling it) Much as if they were actually holding onto it.
(if he swallowed the ring? then how to get it back? does trump pull it forth from his gut? these are all things you have to discuss with your GM as they are the one who will ultimately decide it, so your input would be appreciated and hopefully discussed.)
I've had trump artists with metallurgy & sculpting carve and craft trump images onto swords, cloaks, eye patches (the inside of it), all kinds of ideas. encourage your trump artist to come up with good ones.

[scottishstorm]

Something that I've held off mentioning... (it's essentially covered in gabriel_ss4u's last about the GM setting the 'rules') is trumps' reliance or influence drawn from other powers.

First, I'll admit.  I don't like the idea of trump as a character's only power.  Trump without Pattern or Logrus is incomplete, IMO.  In a way, I suppose I view trump artistry as a subset of Pattern or Logrus - in the sense that you need one or the other in order to be an effective trump artist(*).

This can have the disadvantage of making trump expensive.  Very expensive.

If all you care about is trump, then basic trump artistry effectively costs 90 points (Pattern + BTA) or 120 points (SS + LM + BTA) respectively.  Partial Powers systems are a savior here!

The Trump Artistry Power, IMO, draws its ability to interact with shadow from either Pattern or Logrus.  Without either of these, the artist's trump images are only useful within a particular shadow in terms of "sending" and "receiving".  For sake of understanding, the trumps we're familiar with from the novels I'll refer to as empowered trumps (empowered with Pattern or Lorgus).  An unempowered trump s a lesser thing, indeed!  Examples of the applications and limits of one over the other should probably be obvious.

Part of me likes the idea of trump artistry being so restrictive and expensive.  This helps ensure the power's rarity and uniqueness.  It makes it special.  Additionally, it offers more leeway for expanding the use of TA & ATA as powers, given the understanding that the user already has some form of Pattern or Logrus.  From a game-balancing perspective, new abilities can be developed that compliment the artist's power roster rather than simply replacing the need to know Pattern or Logrus.


(*As a caveat, I'm also comfortable with "Ability to shadow-walk" being the qualifier here rather than specifically Pattern or Logrus.  Possibly, the relative strength of that shadow-walking ability may limit a trump's effective "range" or even method/ease of transport.  This opens up the floor for a bit more versatility in trump artists)

[gabriel_ss4u]

There's no arguing that Trump + either Pattern or Logrus is a strong version of Trump. But IMC Trump predates Pattern or Logrus. Trump + any great power as a vision of reality; (Ygg, Tir, other Patterns, Abyss, Primal power), is bound to make it better than just Trump alone.
IMC, House Chanicut is the Trump master House of Chaos, doing things with Trump unheard of and passing down the secrets of this ancient art.

[scottishstorm]

There's no arguing that Trump + either Pattern or Logrus is a strong version of Trump. But IMC Trump predates Pattern or Logrus.

I can buy that line of thinking.  There's another method of )meta) consideration here, though.  ATA as a character's only power is very potent.  On a personal level, it beats basic Pattern for versatility and sheer power (arguments can be made to the contrary, yes).  For 60 points, ATA is cheap!  Many players would be quite comfortable with the idea that their version of trump may not be quite as potent without Pattern of Logrus as long as they can use ATA as written in the DRPG.


This is too easy and accessible, IMO.  Reasons touched upon in my previous post.

[jibbajibba]

I have a theory extrapolated and length here in the past that trump is actually the primal power. The pattern and the logrus are just abstract trumps of the universe imbued at one end with the concept of the universe is choatic and at the other that the universe is regular.
Also re items I played a charcter that used trump conjuration ie he created items by drawing them the outcome being items imbued with trumpness

[RPGPundit]

In my games, you can't usually make a Trump of an object. Of course, in my games just about anything is possible if you can justify it with some massive power or cleverness.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

In my games, you can't usually make a Trump of an object. Of course, in my games just about anything is possible if you can justify it with some massive power or cleverness.

RPGPundit

well you see nothing in the universe is actually 'real' except the Serpent and the Unicorn the res is all degrees of shadow matter imbued with a degree of reality that is generated via the power of trump. The concept common to Japanese tourists that you have never really been to a place unless you have been photographed there is actually closer to the turth than we like to believe.
So the essence that was the Serpent through the art of trump generated Shuhy and through Shuhy's creation of The Logrus via the art of trump the universe came into being but of course the fact that The logrus is entropic and fluid meant that the universe was Chaos. The essence that was the Unicorn worked on one of the Serpents creations created by trump (for the Unicorn lacked any demiurgical power of its own - Chaos creates Law Codifies) which was Dworkin and pursuaded him perhaps through logic or perhaps through love that the universe should be regular and abide by rules so Dworkin stole the creative force that was the demiurgical power of the Serpent to whit its eye for with the eyes we perceive reality and create it through that perception. But of course unlike the 3 dimentional Logrus the Pattern had to be 2 dimentional for with only one eye you can only peceive 2 dimentions. Thus the Pattern was not powerful enough to over come the Logrus and a state of equlibrium was reached. Those that asail the Pattern inherit the ability to tap into the demiurgical power of the Eye. The ability to draw new worlds.
The ability to heal lost limbs is merely a sunconscious ability to shapeshift, and the ability to shapeshift is merely an internalisation of the ability to render shadow stuff in different ways is an internal abstraction of trump. When I shadow walk I change the environment the blind can not shadow walk because they do not have the ability to see to alter the 'trump' they are in. Shadow walking is just doing that moving from one trump to another and the living trump is a metaphor for that which all shadow walkers do except a Living trump can create the new trump mentally from scratch and does not need to base it on their own trump environment ie change the sky or the plants or even at the extreme hell ride keep the tree and change the forest. So if you can find an item in shadow with pattern you can draw it with trump in fact to draw it with trump is actually what you are doing when you find it in shadow only you are doing so in your mind.

Probably....

[gabriel_ss4u]

In my games, you can't usually make a Trump of an object. Of course, in my games just about anything is possible if you can justify it with some massive power or cleverness.

RPGPundit

Is there any reason for this?
A place and a thing are awfully close...
IMC a trump artist can draw a trump of just about anything.
1st sentence in the game book on Trump states, "person, place, or object."

[gabriel_ss4u]

well you see nothing in the universe is actually 'real' except the Serpent and the Unicorn the res is all degrees of shadow matter imbued with a degree of reality that is generated via the power of trump. The concept common to Japanese tourists that you have never really been to a place unless you have been photographed there is actually closer to the turth than we like to believe.
So the essence that was the Serpent through the art of trump generated Shuhy and through Shuhy's creation of The Logrus via the art of trump the universe came into being but of course the fact that The logrus is entropic and fluid meant that the universe was Chaos. The essence that was the Unicorn worked on one of the Serpents creations created by trump (for the Unicorn lacked any demiurgical power of its own - Chaos creates Law Codifies) which was Dworkin and pursuaded him perhaps through logic or perhaps through love that the universe should be regular and abide by rules so Dworkin stole the creative force that was the demiurgical power of the Serpent to whit its eye for with the eyes we perceive reality and create it through that perception. But of course unlike the 3 dimentional Logrus the Pattern had to be 2 dimentional for with only one eye you can only peceive 2 dimentions. Thus the Pattern was not powerful enough to over come the Logrus and a state of equlibrium was reached. Those that asail the Pattern inherit the ability to tap into the demiurgical power of the Eye. The ability to draw new worlds.
The ability to heal lost limbs is merely a sunconscious ability to shapeshift, and the ability to shapeshift is merely an internalisation of the ability to render shadow stuff in different ways is an internal abstraction of trump. When I shadow walk I change the environment the blind can not shadow walk because they do not have the ability to see to alter the 'trump' they are in. Shadow walking is just doing that moving from one trump to another and the living trump is a metaphor for that which all shadow walkers do except a Living trump can create the new trump mentally from scratch and does not need to base it on their own trump environment ie change the sky or the plants or even at the extreme hell ride keep the tree and change the forest. So if you can find an item in shadow with pattern you can draw it with trump in fact to draw it with trump is actually what you are doing when you find it in shadow only you are doing so in your mind.

Probably....

even likely, perhaps...

(this is along my thoughts too. / but we've mentioned that before.)

[RPGPundit]

Is there any reason for this?
A place and a thing are awfully close...
IMC a trump artist can draw a trump of just about anything.
1st sentence in the game book on Trump states, "person, place, or object."

Two reasons.
Secondarily, because I can't recall any trumps OF an object in the stories.
But primarily, because I see how this could be a really really overbalancing factor in favor of Trump power. It would, for starters, make conjuration all but useless.

RPGPundit

[scottishstorm]

Two reasons.
Secondarily, because I can't recall any trumps OF an object in the stories.
But primarily, because I see how this could be a really really overbalancing factor in favor of Trump power. It would, for starters, make conjuration all but useless.

RPGPundit

Why is that?  A trump takes two days(*) to draw.  And trump, of course, cannot create "something from nothing".

For me, the issue about trumps-of-objects is that a trump artist needs to get an impression of their trump subject.  What kind of impression can one get of an object, particularly if it's wholly mundane?

Earlier, I mentioned a refrigerator trump.  I wasn't the TA in question, though I suspect this refrigerator was somehow marked or otherwise made distinct so a trump could be rendered of it.

Also, the trump subject needs some level of consistency (remember Merlin saying trumps could not be made of some places in Chaos because they're forever changing?).  I wonder if a trump of, say, a sword would work if that sword was broken or empowered since the trump was made.

Finally, the GM may rule that some objects cannot be made into trumps (such as the Jewel of Judgment).  Why not?  Surely, some cosmology reason can be put into effect and made consistent with the rest of the game.  Here's a reason off the top of my head: Can a "location" trump be made of the center of the Pattern?  Doubtfully.  The JoJ may resist  the trump power, just as some powers and shadows can nullify trump.

(*) Re the two days, this takes more time than conjuration, particularly for mundane objects.  In respect to empowered (point-spent) items, these can be "found" in shadow fairly easily with Pattern.  Especially if they're "paid for." (Remember Random casually causing Greyswandir to appear on Corwin's belt in the car, or Corwin finding it within the trunk of a tree in his exodus from Amber)