The Corwin Pattern

SunBoy · May 22, 2009, 12:10:39 AM

Oh. Now I get it. Nice. Hey, a little derailing: If Corwin's Pattern spawns its own universe, with Avalon or what have you at the order pole, what's at the other end? It would be Chaos, but are they the same Courts of Chaos, or is it a different place? I mean, if Chaos predates Order, you could assume they would be the same, but maybe just like Amber is the first Shadow, so the Courts are only a manifestation of the Primal Chaos in this particular universe... thoughts?

Corambis · May 22, 2009, 12:26:09 AM

Quote from: SunBoy;303903Oh. Now I get it. Nice. Hey, a little derailing: If Corwin's Pattern spawns its own universe, with Avalon or what have you at the order pole, what's at the other end? It would be Chaos, but are they the same Courts of Chaos, or is it a different place? I mean, if Chaos predates Order, you could assume they would be the same, but maybe just like Amber is the first Shadow, so the Courts are only a manifestation of the Primal Chaos in this particular universe... thoughts?

Some thoughts:

1) It could connect to the Abyss, but not necessarily through the Courts, although, as you imply, perhaps another version of them.

2) Corwin's Pattern ends up with a greater affinity for the Primal Pattern than the Abyss, and the universe runs between the two. It would seem far less likely for this to happen, but it would make things interesting, certainly.

3) It connects to both the Primal Pattern *and* the Abyss, forming a triangle of sorts.

4) It doesn't connect to anything, and is just an "island" universe in the middle of the "real" universe.

I'm sure other people have other ideas, as well.

RPGPundit · May 22, 2009, 02:05:15 AM

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;303767Correct.
I don't know if I put enough IMCs in there, but I try to.
Yes IMC Avalon is the Amber of Corwin's multi-verse. A floating castle in the sky armed by his wife's forces and their offspring; the Archangels of Avalon. Bordering on House Sepharoth of Chaos's Shadow. (They are the demons to the people of Avalon. As for Corwin, his scions (for the most part) don't quite know about Amber and have an ongoing war with one of the houses of Chaos. Thus, the Angelic themed overtures. There is a lesson Corwin's about teaching his archangels. (Thus the Nobilis feel) and Chaos is at the door. (see the anime Trinity Blood - except IMC not just vampires as antagonists, Chaos Lords as well).
I've spun this idea about, and noticed others like it too.
That's why I liked Erick's advice on giving a troubled shadow to a player to look after, that so fits with my campaign.

Well, I agree about that idea of Erick's, and your perspective on Corwin's realm is interesting, but in the novels, Corwin seems to be mainly thinking of Paris when he creates his pattern... does that not enter into it with your vision of the place?

RPGPundit

RPGPundit · May 22, 2009, 02:07:30 AM

Quote from: SunBoy;303903Oh. Now I get it. Nice. Hey, a little derailing: If Corwin's Pattern spawns its own universe, with Avalon or what have you at the order pole, what's at the other end? It would be Chaos, but are they the same Courts of Chaos, or is it a different place? I mean, if Chaos predates Order, you could assume they would be the same, but maybe just like Amber is the first Shadow, so the Courts are only a manifestation of the Primal Chaos in this particular universe... thoughts?

Well, my thought about this is that Chaos is ever-changing, meaning that there can really only be one Courts of Chaos; but there could theoretically be many patterns and thus many "Ambers".

That said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Corwin's Pattern (or any other theoretical one) will have Chaos at the "other end" of its spectrum the way Dworkin's Pattern does.

RPGPundit

gabriel_ss4u · May 22, 2009, 12:52:46 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;303922Well, I agree about that idea of Erick's, and your perspective on Corwin's realm is interesting, but in the novels, Corwin seems to be mainly thinking of Paris when he creates his pattern... does that not enter into it with your vision of the place?

RPGPundit

yes, it is his "Primal Pattern" IMC, The real world is Paris-esque noir.
Proximity is relative.
It is as far from Chaos in one sense as Amber is, yet closer all the same. The place his Pattern is has become 'Order', and is far from Chaos, but step a few feet in the direction of Chaos, and it feels like you're south of Ygg. The Shadows come easier. The Ways more alive.
To pass from Amber's Pattern based realm to Corwin's Pattern-verse, you have to walk his Pattern, bringing you to his "true Earth', from here you can shadow walk to his worlds which IMC are not as limitless as the 1st Patterns. (not to say it don't feel like multitudes).

The guardian Shadow from any other closer to Chaos is called Avalon, the base of one of my Campaigns of Corwin-Spawn. A Church ruled State of angelic Monarchy. 'The Royal Family Of Arch-angel Corwin, King of Avalon'
To go thru Corwin's "Avalon" A realm that is unto like Amber in it's guise as "The True World" It is in much closer proximity to Chaos (the real Chaos), but still more accurately, just past the outer rim of the Black Zone. (IMC)
House Sepharoth (which IMC is a 'Dark Angel' 'Fallen Angel' Demon... what have you) wages a sometimes open some times covert war with the forces of Order so near it's own Black Zone Outer Rim Ways.

The exploration & traversal of Shadow (IMC) being largely monopolized by House Minobee, they are more diplomatic to allow ease in comings & goings, so business may proceed as should. There are many Shadows to assimilate.

Some Chaosians are seeing a new religion, and the Church of the Serpent Hung Upon the Tree of Matter likes this not!

There IS an equivalent to 'gold' in my Chaos, only it's more like 'essence', or substances that are rare and sought-after, (like 'the spice').

All this blends for awesome campaign material.
I think all the Houses of Chaos have something to say about 'Corwin's Pattern'. I try to provide that clanish view within the various Houses when I do their write-ups... IMC
The Crown
the Church
the Land (& what it yields)
This applies for Chaos & Order.

Within the difference from those of my Corwin's Avalon Arch-angel realm to my Houses & Courts of Chaos, there is much detail. And as you say Pundit, Like opposite alien cultures.
(IMC)

SunBoy · May 22, 2009, 01:55:08 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;303924Well, my thought about this is that Chaos is ever-changing, meaning that there can really only be one Courts of Chaos; but there could theoretically be many patterns and thus many "Ambers".

That said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Corwin's Pattern (or any other theoretical one) will have Chaos at the "other end" of its spectrum the way Dworkin's Pattern does.

RPGPundit

This can be a little dumb, but I alway liked that dichotomy, Order-Chaos, in Amber. What would Corwin's "Primal Realm" have at the other end, then? As I read it, the original Pattern was inscribed to bring order to the universe, spawning shadows in the process. Now you already have an universe, then what does a second "universal organizer" do? I think it would bring about a second alternative order, a second string of shadow originating from the same Abyss. Thing is, the Courts predate Amber, so theoretically they would be a constant in the new universe too... If I had to explain it in a campaign, I'd say that when originally Amber-Chaos formed a sort of axis, now you could see it more like a "V" shaped thing, where the Abyss and the Courts sit at the pointy end, and the two Patterns in the arms. Chaos would have access to both, then, and we know there are doorways in shadow (to Corwin's primal pattern, at least). Dude, I'm so totally running this someday...

Corambis · May 22, 2009, 03:54:09 PM

With regards to the dichotomy, I played in an Amber game once where for various reasons, the Courts were allowed to create another Logrus out in Shadow, basically to offset Corwin's Pattern. There was an entire town set up around it, technically neutral, that became the center of civilization in that part of Shadow. I don't know if there was any relationship between that Logrus and Corwin's Pattern then, but it's possible. Only the GM would know.

RPGPundit · May 22, 2009, 11:19:24 PM

Sunboy: Yes, I've seen that model before, the idea that there can be more than one Amber out there (or at least, more than one pattern) and that all of them connect to Logrus, like spokes on a wheel with Logrus at the center.

RPGPundit

Croaker · May 23, 2009, 11:50:56 AM

Twas one of Mr Wujick's ideas, IIRC

SunBoy · May 23, 2009, 12:55:15 PM

Now I feel stupid.

Well, what about the second Logrus? Neat idea. Harder to pull off, I'd say.

Seanchai · May 23, 2009, 03:04:05 PM

Quote from: Corambis;303704I've seen sub-universes based off of Corwin's pattern in campaigns, although I've never been in one where it had a Tir-na Nog'th analog. I really like the idea though, being a fan of Tir-na Nog'th in general in Amber games.

Yeah, it's a very cool idea!

Seanchai

Nihilistic Mind · May 23, 2009, 06:34:09 PM

Ok, so let's look at what Dworkin created the Pattern for and what Corwin created his Pattern for...

Dworkin is the Rebel son of Chaos, he creates the very anti-thesis of Chaos and with the right spark, Order is born.

Corwin, on the other hand, believes everything is lost and creates a Pattern of his own to oppose Chaos YES, but as importantly, he is creating a haven for the Amberites, a place that cannot be reached by Chaos. I have an easier time imagining Corwin's Pattern giving access to a string of hidden Shadows that do not necessarily connect to Chaos.

In games I've ran, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to reach the Shadows cast by Corwin's Pattern without access to his Pattern. I just don't imagine it would connect to Chaos the same way the Shadows of Dworkin's Pattern do...

On the other hand, that's the great thing about Corwin's Pattern: spending the time to define what it is, what it does and what its Shadows are like, can drastically alter our perception of the Metaphysics involved in that particular campaign. Zelazny gave GMs a great toolkit rather unknowingly

SunBoy · May 24, 2009, 05:13:04 AM

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;304254On the other hand, that's the great thing about Corwin's Pattern: spending the time to define what it is, what it does and what its Shadows are like, can drastically alter our perception of the Metaphysics involved in that particular campaign. Zelazny gave GMs a great toolkit rather unknowingly

That's so true. I'm not sure about Corwin's intentions, though. I got the impression he was trying to preserve the universe as it was, or as near as possible, or at the very least recreate it as close as he was able. But like you said, defining this sort of things (and changing between campaigns) is one of the great ways of keeping the game fresh.

Rel Fexive · May 24, 2009, 06:42:52 AM

I've always called the world of Corwin's Pattern Parravon, partly because I... 'procured' it from WFRP and partly because I can explain it as a contraction of Paris and Avalon. Via a lot of other letters, yes, but bits of them are in it at least.

My ideas run towards keeping it as a small offshoot initially, with a small number of it's own Shadows, reachable only by someone who has walked it's Pattern or who has been shown the way/permitted entry (once they get in the right area of Shadow). Corwin would not be king or any kind of ruler, because he had stated a lack of interest regarding Amber - that's just my interpretation of that refusal. I could see the world's history coming forth pre-formed with some kind of "he is the son of the old king who was lost but returned and in the mean time we have democracy now" thing. They can still turn to him for help - he's also known as 'the General' who has retired (to explore his Shadows) but will come forth to help when asked or when the situation is dire.

I like the idea of it being a haven from Chaos.

Nihilistic Mind · May 25, 2009, 02:06:56 AM

To me Corwin's Shadows must be simple and each reflect some small part of Corwin himself, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Actually I can kind of justify it based on the idea that Dworkin's Pattern has had a long time to form its own Shadow and cast Shadows of people who live in the First Shadow (Amber), etc, etc...

I agree that although Corwin would have much influence there as an icon of sorts, he would choose not to be a ruler. Depends on the needs of the campaign I suppose, but that's certainly a fair perception of what Corwin feels.