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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness

Started by RPGPundit, July 30, 2007, 05:14:27 PM

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Croaker

Killed, not, but beaten, yes. It required a lot of planning and roleplay, but it was done.

Moreso, in the end, my PCs were at about 400 points themselves, on a par with most elders.
 

Otha

So to further twist this thread a little...

Why do PC's advance, but Elders don't?
 

RPGPundit

Elders can advance.

In my own game, some of the elders (usually the younger ones) will advance, either as I see fit or from one of the lower-point versions of themselves to a higher-point version of themselves.

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Croaker

Quote from: OthaSo to further twist this thread a little...

Why do PC's advance, but Elders don't?
Well, they do in fact, but differently.

What I did was use my version of the elders, but, if I really wanted one to do something special, or have a construct or whatever, I'd give it to him, and file it under "Elder Advancement". I never did any regular progression for them, like the PCs have had.

Note also that there's the fact that, while the early stages of a skill are usually easy to pick (say, learn all the basic pattern tricks), increased knowledge (Advanced, and especially exalted pattern) sometimes comes much more difficultly (does this word exists???). So, in the time your PC learns a lot of basics and builds up to his potential (i.e. going from 100 to 400 points), your average elder will have learned very little (going from 400 to 450), just because he already knows so much there's really little he can learn.
 

SunBoy

IMO, there are, throughout the series, a few thingies that make an Amberite or Chaosite chap "advance". Gaining knowledge about the Primal Pattern, understand that this is not the only possibility (IE, Corwin's pattern), a Chaosite understanding something about Pattern, an Amberite learning something about the Courts. I think that's the real advancement NPCs have got, wisening up to particular facts. It is easier, as you don't have got to keep track of a whole load of numbers and shit, and it is harder, because you've got to remember who know what and make them act accordingly.
Plainly put, in Amber, more than in any other game (even bloody Cthulu), knowledge is power. And while it may be tempting to assume that all Elders've got the whole knowledge base from the beggining, it is much more interesting to develop it through the game, thus making them, in a way, advance.
"Real randomness, I\'ve discovered, is the result of two or more role-players interacting"

Erick Wujcik, 2007

SunBoy

Quick example: PC One, Charlie the Amberite, is running away from (or chasing) Florimel around Mt. Kolvir. Now, Charlie knows he can actually Shadowwalk there, but Flora's got yet to find out. So he starts subtly shifting things around them, gaining therefore a huge advantage over her in a matter of minutes.
"Real randomness, I\'ve discovered, is the result of two or more role-players interacting"

Erick Wujcik, 2007

Otha

So if the Elders DO advance, do you wind up in a Zeno's paradox where the PC's can never fully 'catch up'?
 

RPGPundit

Quote from: OthaSo if the Elders DO advance, do you wind up in a Zeno's paradox where the PC's can never fully 'catch up'?

Wow you sure are stretching to try to claim that the system is broken, aren't you?

Obviously, PCs would advance much faster than highly-powered NPCs.  So the PCs would have the chance to catch up to some of the Elders, and theoretically (but unlikely) to any of the elders.

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Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
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LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Croaker

Quote from: OthaSo if the Elders DO advance, do you wind up in a Zeno's paradox where the PC's can never fully 'catch up'?
IMO, not nescessarily.
Progression is a matter of conflict, learning and experience. If you stay cozy at home, you won't learn anything, so even a 1000 points NPCs would be, given enough time, left behind the PCs, IF these PCs keep advancing themselves.

OTOH, it also makes a sense that the elders would always keep a little lead if they continue their efforts to progress, just because they had a lead.
Say, if you're 20 and your parent is 520, he sure knows a lot more things than you, and is entitled to treat you as the brat you are. When you're 500 and he's 1000, he still is more experienced, but you're no longer such a kid. And when you're 10 000 and he's 10 500, the difference may still be there, but it'll be negligible.

Moreso, there's also the question of what they try to get into. Say that benedict completely drop warfare to concentrate on Pattern. Given enough milleniums, he may still know more things than you and become an impressive exalted pattern master, but you may have become his equal or better at warfare. So, on the one hand, you've catched up, and on the other, he's still your better
 

Otha

Quote from: RPGPunditWow you sure are stretching to try to claim that the system is broken, aren't you?

Obviously, PCs would advance much faster than highly-powered NPCs.

RPGPundit

Why is that obvious?
 

Arref

Quote from: OthaSo to further twist this thread a little...

Why do PC's advance, but Elders don't?

I advance them both, but on a scale not seen in the rules.
First I advance them by information = 'the Family Game'
Second I advance youngers by victories over threats to things they care about. You can't just go spend time in shadow and become much more experienced.

Third, I advance elders by defeats over things they care about. They already have been through enough victories that they only learn more now when they are unexpectedly knocked over by information or threats they haven't seen.

This is why Benedict (in the canon) searches constantly for battles and often takes the "losing side".
in the Shadow of Greatness
—sharing on game ideas and Zelazny\'s Amber

Croaker

Yup, good reasonning, I cannot help but agree.
In fact, I followed the exact same reasonning in a game I've created with some friends: defeats costs you, but you also learns more.
 

Khazav

One issue I kind of (but not really) have with the points for the elders is comparing it to the books and Wujick's rules for xp. The whole Corwin books & Black Rod war must have been the most important thing to happen to Amber since the founding. Nothing else is remembered or referred to that seems to be in any way more significant. Yet the rules say that whole conflict was worth about '25-75xp call it 50xp' per character. So how did the elders, if they were created at 100 points to start like the PCs, rise to the 300+ point versions?

zircher

Even if they got one XP per year, most of them would have hundreds stocked up or invested.  The Black Road was just a big jump for them.
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Khazav

But how would they get 1 per year? From competing with each other? If regular shadow stuff gives no xp and the Courts of Chaos was beyond their reach, then only infighting would work, but that seems like an excessive amount of points considering only once was there a fight to the death, or nearly so.