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Author Topic: The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness  (Read 5331 times)

RPGPundit

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« on: July 30, 2007, 05:14:27 PM »
Hey. I was thinking about how many GMs end up incorporating things like "multiple universes" into their Amber campaign, the Abyss as its own universe or a gateway to others, etc.
I know I've done this myself more than once in my many campaigns.

However, the more I think about it the more it smacks me of a somewhat lazy attitude on the part of a GM.  I mean, think about it: you already have an entire MULTIVERSE to work with.  I just find it odd that so many campaigns feel that this is somehow too small, and end up having to show other "ambers" or "chaoses" or "courts" of other kinds, instead of the incredible huge wealth of shit that could possibly exist out there in shadow.

In any case, it seems to me that its WAY more common for an Amber campaign to be about Multiverse-hopping than it is to have a campaign that focuses in depth on an area of Shadow, wherein you could potentially find almost ANYTHING.  That's pretty odd, but I chalk it up to the fact that "multiple universes" or cheap copies of the courts or of Amber providing the plotline takes much less creativity than creating something really original inside of Shadow itself.

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TonyLB

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2007, 05:45:01 PM »
I'm always sort of stunned that people have so little interest in Arden ... which is, by all accounts, pretty big on its own (certainly bigger than any forest ever recorded on Earth) and damn near fixed/real.

Even shadow seems a bit of a cop-out ... have you explored Arden?  For that matter, have you explored the city of Amber?  Or even the Castle?
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finarvyn

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 06:33:58 PM »
Planets are huge yet in Star Wars they are reduced to sterotypical places and no one really seems to mind. "Obi-Wan is on Tatooine, oh, well that's right over there and ... there he is!"

In the same way, the Amber universe is gigantic but we focus on the special places rather than the random stuff in between becasue Amber is all about the big-picture storyline and not randomly searching a map hex-by-hex.
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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2007, 09:28:40 PM »
Quote from: TonyLB
I'm always sort of stunned that people have so little interest in Arden ... which is, by all accounts, pretty big on its own (certainly bigger than any forest ever recorded on Earth) and damn near fixed/real.

Even shadow seems a bit of a cop-out ... have you explored Arden?  For that matter, have you explored the city of Amber?  Or even the Castle?


I've always imagined that Arden was a forest so big it covered multiple shadows, stretched out and bordered a number of the golden circle realms.

I mean shit, these new guys could easily write a 200 page sourcebook on Arden, another on Amber City, another on the Golden Circle, and not to mention Castle Amber and Rebma.

And yes, in most campaigns I've seen this remarkably underused.

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2007, 09:30:01 PM »
Quote from: finarvyn
Planets are huge yet in Star Wars they are reduced to sterotypical places and no one really seems to mind. "Obi-Wan is on Tatooine, oh, well that's right over there and ... there he is!"

In the same way, the Amber universe is gigantic but we focus on the special places rather than the random stuff in between becasue Amber is all about the big-picture storyline and not randomly searching a map hex-by-hex.


Well, I don't think we should do hex-by-hex, but I do think that some of the best Amber campaigns I've ran were ones where I had written a TON of material on the Golden Circle, or other specific Shadows out there where a lot of the action took place; or where my players developed a LOT of detail about their personal shadows, making them in that way into places where a lot of the action was.

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TonyLB

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2007, 11:08:39 PM »
One way I've done it where this type of important geography can work is to make the geography important because of its emotional import to some NPC.

Now Amber and Arden get this by default.  If you're playing around in Arden it's because you have some relationship or other to Julian ... otherwise why the hell would you even be there?

But you can do the same thing with just about any place.  I suggested to one guy playing the estranged teen son of King Random that his character should be a student at his father's old alma mater ... and the school itself became fascinating because of the bond that shared history created (for good and for ill).
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Otha

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007, 11:46:37 PM »
When people put creative investment in a place, it's only fair to steer play in that direction.

When play finds itself steered towards a particular place, people naturallys tart to put creative investment in it.

It's a self-feeding cycle.
 

finarvyn

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2007, 07:47:52 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
I mean shit, these new guys could easily write a 200 page sourcebook on Arden, another on Amber City, another on the Golden Circle, and not to mention Castle Amber and Rebma.

Gaaah! I hope not!

I mean, I really want some Amber Diceless products so I can spend my paycheck on them, but I don't want somebody going so far from the canon as to make up 200 pages on anything. I think that the end result of such a product would be some generic D&D-like world where a lot of the spark of Amber would be extinguished by pages of narrative.

To me, Amber should be somewhat on-the-fly and vague so that the GM can fill in details as appropriate. I'd like to see some "official" maps, but I really don't want every place explained and explored already. I'm pretty sure that would kill Amber for me, and I'd hate that. :(
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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2007, 11:37:00 AM »
What I'd like to see each of those "sourcebooks" be is a bunch of possibilities, just like what is done for the NPCs in the main books, do the same for the places: "what if Forest Arden was x?"; "or what if it was y?", "how about if it had z?".  Stuff like that.

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SunBoy

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2007, 11:31:50 PM »
Nah... I'm with Fin here... If you'd got a canonic plane of Castle Amber, then you couldn't make the hole in the wall end in the room you want it too... And Arden? Come on, It's just a BIG place with loads of trees and monsters and Julian and Julian's pets and Julian's Rangers and more Julian... what else do you need to know? You can even take out Julian. Same with Rebma. Mirrored Amber, underwater and full of fish-boys and fish-girls. The thing I like best about Amber is exactly that you haven't got any restriction, not only in the Shadows but in Amber itself. I mean, boy, some of the funniest scenes in my campaign were about one of the players wandering around the Castle alongside Martin, looking for wine in the kitchens, getting pissed and wandering some more. Or some players looking for another one in the gardens and running into her pet tiger.
Nope, I prefer it when it's all in my head. Helps keeping the mistery and wonderment, allows me to do whatever I want to, and, frankly, I really don't care for being forced to constantly look at a map. Who cares if Fiona's room was in the left hallway before?
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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2007, 12:25:46 AM »
I perfectly understand the no-map point of view, but I like pundit's idea. Having multiple suggestions about a place won't mean you'll be forced to use one, just as no GM is constrained to use a published version of an amberite, but, if well done, it could give one a lot of cool ideas.

And who says Arden is just a forest? I read this essay once about Arden being the representation of the Chinese Wood element in Amber, just like some people assume there's a representation of the classical 4 elements trhough amber, rebma, tir and a lost 5th pattern. This would make arden much more important, and give it a lot of associated meanings as well.

Anyway, do not rule out Arden because it's "just a forest" or rebma because it's "just a city". Both can be much more in the hands of a good GM.
 

SunBoy

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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2007, 12:37:58 AM »
I think you miss the point. When I say "It's just a forest", I'm saying that that's the only thing I like to be fixed about it. The big, green, and potentially dangerous Amber's only entrance by land (at least before Corwin's shadow-walk in Kolvir itself). Same thing with Rebma. That's exactly why I don't want them too defined. Because both can be much more in the hands of a good GM.
The chinese elements thingie's nice, but would you like it to be the "Official" Arden? There is a saying in Spanish that goes "de costumbres se hacen leyes", which means something like "from habits you get laws". I don't want that happening to Amber. I can see how vague suggestion could be nice, but let's keep it at that.
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Croaker

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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007, 06:41:00 AM »
There would no more be an official arden than there's an official Oberon, Corwin or Dara, just possibilities, ideas and suggestions.

In a way, this is already done in the corebook whan erik talks about various places. Although an entire book on, say, arden, would be probably too much, a book with various ideas, versions and suggestions about different versions of Amber, Arden, Tir, Rebma, the Golden Circle... could be a great source of inspiration IMO, just as the various versions of the elders.
 

Otha

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The Abyss, infinite Amber Universes, and GM lazyness
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2007, 04:08:24 PM »
I don't even like the "versions" of the Elders.  They say too much; instead, summaries that list the things that the GM needs to consider if he wants his elders to be accurate to Canon should be enough.
 

SunBoy

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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2007, 10:40:58 AM »
I was discussing this same issue with the pundit last night, and he's right in one point though: I was totally forgetting the commercial aspect. For the game we love to stay in the market, as massive as possible, then something should be released. Commercially, I don't think a game could hope to survive with only one corebook and one sourcebook, so I think that what Fishy over there says is probably the better option.
And, Otha, I see what you mean, but I actually found the "versions" very entertaining at least. If memory doesn't fail, my Corwin resembled quite closely one of them, whereas my Bleys included elements from all three (there where three, right? I don't have the book at hand). And I say "resemble". I didn't actually based them on the handbook's versions, but they (book's) were so well done they actually resembled my own :) .

Edit to add: Whoo-hoo!! 200 posts. I'm an arsehole, I know.
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