As the thread title says, the comedian and studio owner(Spartina) Stephen Colber plans to develop Amber as a tv show. The previous talk with Robert Kirkman seems forgotten.
Original link:
https://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2023/01/stephen-colbert-to-develop-chronicles.html
I would move this to other media but it seems drpg related.
Thanks for the heads up.
I think it could make a great TV show, and good to know at least one producer is a serious fan of the material.
I'm sure Amberites gonna be diversed by I just hope they gonna keep ethnic makeup along true sibling lines.
Given the nature of shapeshifting and infinite shadow, if the producers feel that they have a diversity quota gun to their head, why not have characters with multiple appearances including gender?
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 21, 2023, 06:22:27 PM
I'm sure Amberites gonna be diversed by I just hope they gonna keep ethnic makeup along true sibling lines.
Within the fictional universe, Oberon was a shape-shifter. So the full siblings should have a little more similarity since their mothers were not shape-shifters, but there's room for a wide variety.
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For the show producers, I suspect the problem they'll have with that is that they don't want the sibling rivalry of the books to be portrayed as racial conflicts. It doesn't matter which siblings groups are which race - if its part-latino siblings against part-semitic siblings, or part-European siblings against part-Asian siblings, or whichever. Making the deadly rivalries into inter-racial conflicts adds a dimension that wasn't in the books. That will be uncomfortable for some people no matter what.
On the other hand, if they stick with all-white Amberite characters - that means that all peoples of every reality are lesser reflections of this white family. That is true to the 1970s books, but particularly when it is presented in a visual medium, I think it will be uncomfortable for many viewers today.
Kind of sad that they will have to do that juggling act, but it is what it is. Of course, some folks are going to be whiney about it no matter the choices made.
Quote from: zircher on January 24, 2023, 06:55:53 PM
Kind of sad that they will have to do that juggling act, but it is what it is. Of course, some folks are going to be whiney about it no matter the choices made.
I wonder about how I'd approach it. I think the cultural portrayal of Amber is one of the weaker sides of the books' concept. All realities are a reflection of a generic-seeming English castle with its family stepping out of Shakespeare? It fit with fantasy standards of the 1970s, but it isn't very interesting for a visual medium.
I'd want Amber to be more fantastical, with impossible and wacky mixed architecture that looks amazing and weird - like the Taj Mahal, Versaille and Chichen Itza put together with magic - giving more believable that the roots of all the variety of reality is from there.
I'd also think about throwing in a bit more of the fantastical into the sibling's looks. That's already canonical with Llewella and her naturally green hair, but the others could have a lesser degree of that. Clarissa's kids could have odd strains of red hair that changes shade to reflect their sorcery. Rilga's kids might be more animalistic in appearance, perhaps - fitting Julian's pets, Caine's craft, and Gerard's strength.
For a visual medium, you want more of everything's visual appearance to convey more of the story and the background compared to a book.
Quote from: jhkim on January 25, 2023, 02:42:59 AMI wonder about how I'd approach it. I think the cultural portrayal of Amber is one of the weaker sides of the books' concept. All realities are a reflection of a generic-seeming English castle with its family stepping out of Shakespeare? It fit with fantasy standards of the 1970s, but it isn't very interesting for a visual medium.
Good to see "respecting the source material" tossed haphazardly off of the table.
Every time I see someone dismiss a style or concept as old fashioned, and in need of 'updating,' I always think "according to whom?"
Quote from: Grognard GM on January 26, 2023, 12:13:18 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 25, 2023, 02:42:59 AMI wonder about how I'd approach it. I think the cultural portrayal of Amber is one of the weaker sides of the books' concept. All realities are a reflection of a generic-seeming English castle with its family stepping out of Shakespeare? It fit with fantasy standards of the 1970s, but it isn't very interesting for a visual medium.
Good to see "respecting the source material" tossed haphazardly off of the table.
Every time I see someone dismiss a style or concept as old fashioned, and in need of 'updating,' I always think "according to whom?"
As I clearly said, I was giving my personal take on it.
All of the fantasy classics had major changes in going to film, from the Wizard of Oz to the Lord of the Rings.
QuoteGiven the nature of shapeshifting and infinite shadow, if the producers feel that they have a diversity quota gun to their head, why not have characters with multiple appearances including gender?
I kinda enjoy idea of Amberites look and trappings shifting from Shadow to Shadow to fit in, not cause sort of Paradox.
With Chaosites - sure full shapeshifting. Let it roll.
Within the fictional universe, Oberon was a shape-shifter. So the full siblings should have a little more similarity since their mothers were not shape-shifters, but there's room for a wide variety.
QuoteOn the other hand, if they stick with all-white Amberite characters - that means that all peoples of every reality are lesser reflections of this white family. That is true to the 1970s books, but particularly when it is presented in a visual medium, I think it will be uncomfortable for many viewers today.
QuoteI wonder about how I'd approach it. I think the cultural portrayal of Amber is one of the weaker sides of the books' concept. All realities are a reflection of a generic-seeming English castle with its family stepping out of Shakespeare? It fit with fantasy standards of the 1970s, but it isn't very interesting for a visual medium.
I mean yes... but not. Thing is Courts of Chaos were natural Axis of Creation, Amber was made later, artificially by Dworkin, his little personal utopia.
It brings multiverse to certain order depending on how given shadow places between Amber and Courts, but it's not like all in them is impression of Amber, most of things on Earth can be just element of original infinite diversity that existed before Pattern.
QuoteI'd want Amber to be more fantastical, with impossible and wacky mixed architecture that looks amazing and weird - like the Taj Mahal, Versaille and Chichen Itza put together with magic - giving more believable that the roots of all the variety of reality is from there.
But that's chaos. Infinite varieties mixed together. That's how Courts should look like.
QuoteEvery time I see someone dismiss a style or concept as old fashioned, and in need of 'updating,' I always think "according to whom?"
I'd say it's less "updating" but also examining setting own coherence. And here honestly if making adaptation I'd notice glaring holes, then I would shift it to make it more coherent and fans can burn in hell with their plotholes ;)
Alas I believe jhkim is wrong in this regard, because Amber is not source of all creation - Courts are, and Courts and Logrus, and multiverse existed millenia before Dworkin forged Amber like a new Axis for Shadows. So it makes sense to make Amber very uniform, and Chaos very diverse. It's not after all like Chaosians are really bad guys.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 26, 2023, 09:17:39 AM
Quote from: jhkimI'd want Amber to be more fantastical, with impossible and wacky mixed architecture that looks amazing and weird - like the Taj Mahal, Versaille and Chichen Itza put together with magic - giving more believable that the roots of all the variety of reality is from there.
But that's chaos. Infinite varieties mixed together. That's how Courts should look like.
Quote from: Grognard GMEvery time I see someone dismiss a style or concept as old fashioned, and in need of 'updating,' I always think "according to whom?"
I'd say it's less "updating" but also examining setting own coherence. And here honestly if making adaptation I'd notice glaring holes, then I would shift it to make it more coherent and fans can burn in hell with their plotholes ;)
Alas I believe jhkim is wrong in this regard, because Amber is not source of all creation - Courts are, and Courts and Logrus, and multiverse existed millenia before Dworkin forged Amber like a new Axis for Shadows. So it makes sense to make Amber very uniform, and Chaos very diverse. It's not after all like Chaosians are really bad guys.
OK, it's a fair critique. On review, I agree with Wrath of God. Amber shouldn't be mixed.
On the other hand, it should still be visually interesting, and whatever choice is made, the visual appearance will be a big part of how the film adaptation comes across. What does the appearance convey?
For comparison, this is something I leaned into in my recently-ended variant Amber Diceless campaign, the Jade Throne. I kept exactly the same rules, but the background was rewritten as Chinese. I felt it is a very fittingly Chinese concept that they are the center of the universe and the source of all Order. In my campaign, the distant First Emperor called to mind both Zelazny's Oberon and Qin Shi Huangdi, which gave some very negative connotations to the original Pattern - that it is founded in violent imperialism over all of reality. A bunch of the campaign was dealing with the First Emperor's legacy and the Pattern.
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If the visual style of Amber and the Amberites is purely Shakespearean English, that could have a similar connotation. Shakespeare was around the time as England was forming the Empire on which the sun never sets. The descriptions of the novel fit with this. Then Corwin's second Pattern based on more modern Paris could be seen as a moderation of English dominance.
I think that is one thematic take on the novels, but it isn't the only one. As I think more, it could work, but I'm not sure if its one that I would choose. Again, the visual detail is an addition to the written story no matter what. The question is what parts of the story the details bring out.
In some other modern fantasy, pure Order is visually represented as geometric shapes - which avoids cultural connotations, but I don't think that works for Amber.
"On the other hand, it should still be visually interesting, and whatever choice is made, the visual appearance will be a big part of how the film adaptation comes across. What does the appearance convey?
"
I mean Amber itself can be extremely classical, cookie-cutter castle, I'd definitely use some "sacred geometry" - some elements from Pattern in patterns around Amber, it's gardens, bricks in walls and tapestries.
Let's remember large part of Chronicles took part in various other places - so there can be very much visual artistry without trying to outdo Amber.
Like in first book - you run between 60's Earth, some weird fantasy worlds where armies are gathered, Amber, underwater kingdoms... that's a lot.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 26, 2023, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: jhkimOn the other hand, it should still be visually interesting, and whatever choice is made, the visual appearance will be a big part of how the film adaptation comes across. What does the appearance convey?
I mean Amber itself can be extremely classical, cookie-cutter castle, I'd definitely use some "sacred geometry" - some elements from Pattern in patterns around Amber, it's gardens, bricks in walls and tapestries.
Let's remember large part of Chronicles took part in various other places - so there can be very much visual artistry without trying to outdo Amber.
Like in first book - you run between 60's Earth, some weird fantasy worlds where armies are gathered, Amber, underwater kingdoms... that's a lot.
When you say "classical" and "cookie-cutter", those have different meaning to different people. For fantasy fans who grew up in the 1970s, it might mean one thing. But for kids who grew up in the 2010s, the same design won't necessarily come across as "classical" and "cookie-cutter". So it has a different meaning.
This is especially true if this is a big-budget fantasy film intended to sell to international audiences. That is a much wider audience than Zelazny was writing to in the 1970s.
Regarding other worlds - My point is that the design shouldn't be just to throw in arbitrary visual glitter. The visual design of the film is important for the
meaning. For example, there are reasons why Peter Jackson chose to ignore Tolkien's description that orcs look like ugly "Mongol types", but instead chose a different appearance.
The appearance of Amber will be crucial to the films because it conveys how the viewers conceive of Amber as the supposed center of all reality.
QuoteFor example, there are reasons why Peter Jackson chose to ignore Tolkien's description that orcs look like ugly "Mongol types", but instead chose a different appearance.
I think mostly because he could hire only white or Maori kiwis for extras really :P
QuoteThe appearance of Amber will be crucial to the films because it conveys how the viewers conceive of Amber as the supposed center of all reality.
Yes, and it should be terribly narrow and undiverse centre of reality, and if people in first two seasons gonna be shocked or enraged by it - before they get glimpse of Courts... so be it.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 26, 2023, 03:08:58 PM
Quote from: jhkimFor example, there are reasons why Peter Jackson chose to ignore Tolkien's description that orcs look like ugly "Mongol types", but instead chose a different appearance.
I think mostly because he could hire only white or Maori kiwis for extras really :P
Quote from: jhkimThe appearance of Amber will be crucial to the films because it conveys how the viewers conceive of Amber as the supposed center of all reality.
Yes, and it should be terribly narrow and undiverse centre of reality, and if people in first two seasons gonna be shocked or enraged by it - before they get glimpse of Courts... so be it.
I think that shock value would distract from the point of the story.
You add tongue-in-cheek when talking about Tolkien, but what do you really think about this change? If the films were literally accurate, then further, dwarves would come across as Jewish the way Tolkien intended. But I think that Mongol-appearing orcs and Jewish-sounding dwarves could be a distraction from the core of the story. (Actually, in Lord of the Rings the latter could pass since dwarves appear so little - but it would definitely be a distraction in The Hobbit with its theme of dwarvish greed.)
Does one want to convey the literal details of the story as published in the 1970s when fantasy novels were a niche? Or does one want to convey the core of the novels to a different audience?
Ha! There's the answer. Start the series with a scene in the Courts as a teaser and then flash to 'several days ago...' to start Corwin's story. You get all the flavors out of the way and shake things up a bit for the classic Amber fans without breaking things.
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I think that shock value would distract from the point of the story.
You add tongue-in-cheek when talking about Tolkien, but what do you really think about this change? If the films were literally accurate, then further, dwarves would come across as Jewish the way Tolkien intended. But I think that Mongol-appearing orcs and Jewish-sounding dwarves could be a distraction from the core of the story. (Actually, in Lord of the Rings the latter could pass since dwarves appear so little - but it would definitely be a distraction in The Hobbit with its theme of dwarvish greed.)
Does one want to convey the literal details of the story as published in the 1970s when fantasy novels were a niche? Or does one want to convey the core of the novels to a different audience?
I want to see both core and aesthetics and if woke audience have problem with it - I have no problem with them going to hell.
And like - dwarves are Jewish in ancient Semitic way - not modern hand rubbing memes - so I do not see them distracting especially (though I'd make them speak Common with vaguely Yiddish accent just for lolz) - it's different aesthetic. Would it be distracting for people expecting scottish warhammer dwarves, well fuck those people :P
Also Orcs were meant to look as very ugly caricature of East Asians, so not making them just look like Mongols would be pointless.
Let people be uncomfortable and if they gonna rage on Twitter so be it.
If the new Velma series is any indicator, hate watching is a thing. I wonder if it works on the opposite political axis?
I don't know, but honestly while dwarves are sort of Semitic they are not bad guys, nor Jewish caricatures.
Like they look more like ancient Phoenician warriors if anything.
Orcs on the other hand looks like caricatures of Mongols, which is to say not really like Mongols proper, and they do not share culture with them, in fact they behave like degenerated proletariate from big industrial cities.
Quote from: zircher on January 31, 2023, 03:42:15 PM
If the new Velma series is any indicator, hate watching is a thing. I wonder if it works on the opposite political axis?
Firstly, it seems Velma was green lit for a second season before it even dropped.
Secondly, streaming services count "popping in for a sec to look then running away" as 'watching.'
And no, I don't think it works the other way. Wokies get outraged based upon what a talking head tells them happened in something, no watching required. In fact watching is discouraged, because they are in TERROR of catching a stray idea and being ideologically polluted/unpersoned.
They need a good architect.
Amber was the perfect city on which all others were merely shadows. So it must be really cool. Paris maybe but I don't think any english city has ever been called perfect. Of course Corwin had his rose colored glasses screwed on nice and tight at that point
Nah, you wouldn't get a dozen or more egotistical princlings living in a castle or city with a father who disappeared for years at a time without most of them making their own changes to the design. The Castle would have a central area built by Oberon, probably practical and utilitarian and then it woudl spin out to wings and additions in all sorts of styles, a cluster of Italinate courtyards, a handful of minarets, etc etc. The City woudl be even more diverse.
As for the Amberites. they really have to be diverse don't they or it simply makes no sense that they are the base shadows. I agree that those with shared mothers need to look alike. I can see Gerard, Caine and Julian as Arabic or African; Corwin, Eric and Diredre as Hispanic; Making Benedict Oriental is too obvious but giving him a native American look works; Random needs to look like Christian Slater in 1995....
QuoteAmber was the perfect city on which all others were merely shadows. So it must be really cool. Paris maybe but I don't think any english city has ever been called perfect. Of course Corwin had his rose colored glasses screwed on nice and tight at that point
I think you misguide Order with Perfection. Amberites are not Perfect. And their Order is not Absolute Cosmic Order merely carved refugee for Chaosians who were tired with Court's bullshit.
Not sure if Courts are Eternal, Amber most definitely is not.
It's Order creates regularity so all shadows close to Amber will somehow reflect it, they will be simmilar - and less Amber-like further you move in multiverse. But Amber city may be really boring one, or average - and all things you consider cool may come from Courts and their influence over shadows.
QuoteNah, you wouldn't get a dozen or more egotistical princlings living in a castle or city with a father who disappeared for years at a time without most of them making their own changes to the design. The Castle would have a central area built by Oberon, probably practical and utilitarian and then it woudl spin out to wings and additions in all sorts of styles, a cluster of Italinate courtyards, a handful of minarets, etc etc. The City woudl be even more diverse.
As for the Amberites. they really have to be diverse don't they or it simply makes no sense that they are the base shadows. I agree that those with shared mothers need to look alike. I can see Gerard, Caine and Julian as Arabic or African; Corwin, Eric and Diredre as Hispanic; Making Benedict Oriental is too obvious but giving him a native American look works; Random needs to look like Christian Slater in 1995....
They may be egotistical but they are also Amberites the axis of stability in sea of shifting shadows. The differences between them may be very subtle.
And their mothers - that depends on where they came from. Those from foreign shadows sure let's go nuts. Those from Amber and world neighbour - those should all look like really really not diverse Alabama ;)