I was curious if anyone knows the chronological order in which the short stories takes place... I'm on Hand of Oberon again and will be reading the short stories soon...
These:
The Shrouding and the Guisel
A Salesman's Tale
Coming to A Cord
occur in that order and take place simultaneously with
Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains
then the narratives meet in:
Hall of Mirrors
Here is the order that I believe they all best fit together:
The Betancourt Prequels: [1]
01. The Dawn of Amber (2002)
02. Chaos and Amber (2003)
03. To Rule in Amber (2004)
04. Shadows of Amber (2005)
05. Sword of Chaos (never written)
Corwin's Saga:
06. Nine Princes in Amber (1970)
07. The Guns of Avalon (1972)
08. Sign of the Unicorn (1975)
09. The Hand of Oberon (1976)
10. The Courts of Chaos (1978)
The Randall Which-Way Books: [2]
11. Seven No-Trump (Random POV; 1988)
12. The Black Road War (Derek POV; 1988)
Merlin's Saga:
13. Prolog to "The Trumps of Doom" (Merlin POV; 1985)
14. "The Salesman's Tale" (Luke POV; 1994) [3]
15. The Trumps of Doom (1985)
16. Sign of Chaos (1986)
17. Blood of Amber (1987)
18. Knight of Shadows (1989)
19. Prince of Chaos (1991)
The Zelazny Short Stories:
20. "The Shroudling and the Guisel" (Merlin POV; 1995) [4]
21. "Coming to a Cord" (Frakir POV; 1995) [5]
22. "Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains" (Corwin POV; 1995) [6]
23. "Hall of Mirrors" (Corwin POV; published 1996) [7]
By Roger Zelazny and Ed Greenwood
24. "A Secret in Amber" (Corwin POV; 1995) [8]
NOTES:
[1] The Betancourt novels are clearly prequels, even if they are not accepted by many readers of the series. On the other hand, there are many readers who don't accept Merlin's stories either, so there you go.
[2] The Randall which-way stories could technically go almost anywhere following Corwin's Saga. However, since they deal with King Random and Derek (son of Erik), it seems to make more sense to place them closer to the stories which feature Random and Erik. As with the Betancourt novels, the level of acceptance is in debate. At least these were sanctioned by Roger, since he wrote an introduction for each of them.
[3] "The Salesman's Tale" starts off with a direct reference to Merlin in the Crystal Cave, which seems to place it right about the time of Trumps of Doom.
[4] Roger's introduction to "The Shrouling and the Guisel" states that it occurs directly following Prince of Chaos.
[5] Roger's introduction to "Coming to a Cord" states that it occurs directly following "The Shroudling and the Guisel".
[6] I think that it's clear that "Hall of Mirrors" was designed to be the start of a whole new plot thread, which makes it the final entry in the Amber series. As "Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains" occurs directly before "Hall of Mirrors", I placed them together in the sequence.
[7] The copyright says 1996, but I suspect it wasn't written after Roger's death so it must have been early 1995.
[8] I don't even know if this should be included or not, but it was a collaborative you-write-then-I-write effort which doesn't follow any of the other storylines. I stuck it on the end, after Mirrors, simply because it was written last.
This is all complicated a bit by the fact that Roger actually wrote them in a slightly different order. The introduction to "Coming to a Cord" gives the order that Roger wrote them as (1) Salesman, (2) Blue Horse, (3) Shroudling, and (4) Cord. At this point Mirrors had not yet been written. Taking Blue Horse and sliding it in front of Shroudling certainly won't mess up the storyline but it seems to work better to put Blue Horse and Mirrors back-to-back for continuity.
Hope that helps. :)
It's a rare day someone surprises me with Amber trivia, but I've never even heard of this:
Quote from: finarvyn;365088By Roger Zelazny and Ed Greenwood
24. "A Secret in Amber" (Corwin POV; 1995) [8]
Where did this appear? And has it re-appeared anywhere?
Quote from: jdurall;365101It's a rare day someone surprises me with Amber trivia, but I've never even heard of this: Where did this appear? And has it re-appeared anywhere?
Amberzine #12.
Thank you very much...
Quote from: jdurall;365101It's a rare day someone surprises me with Amber trivia, but I've never even heard of this:
Where did this appear? And has it re-appeared anywhere?
It also appears in
The Collected Stories of Roger Zelazny: Volume Six but is very short, accounting for only a page or two of text. It was written collaboratively, with the authors alternating every few lines as they met at conventions over the years.
And not a very good story, either, since it really doesn't have a direction or a resolution. It's kind of neat to see some random threads get started, but since nothing gets concluded it's perhaps more frustrating than beneficial.
Just one guy's opinion.
Quote[3] "The Salesman's Tale" starts off with a direct reference to Merlin in the Crystal Cave, which seems to place it right about the time of Trumps of Doom.
I have to disagree with this one. I'm trying to remember if it's Prince of Chaos or not, there is a scene where Luke is holding his bloodied palm over the Pattern "blackmailing" it so that it will let Coral and Merlin leave. He's making a reference that it's a good thing Merlin left it so well stocked because he was going to use it to hide from the Pattern.
Quote from: finarvyn;365088NOTES:
[1] The Betancourt novels are clearly prequels, even if they are not accepted by many readers of the series. On the other hand, there are many readers who don't accept Merlin's stories either, so there you go.
The big difference being that the Merlin novels were actually written by Roger Zelazny, whereas Betancourt's garbage was not only written by a b-grade hack, they were expressly contrary to Roger Zelazny's last wishes regarding Amber.
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;370851The big difference being that the Merlin novels were actually written by Roger Zelazny, whereas Betancourt's garbage was not only written by a b-grade hack, they were expressly contrary to Roger Zelazny's last wishes regarding Amber.
Okay. I'm guessing we all know that.
My intent was to provide a chronological order for the series, not to beat the same dead horse.
Quote from: RPGPundit;370851The big difference being that the Merlin novels were actually written by Roger Zelazny, whereas Betancourt's garbage was not only written by a b-grade hack, they were expressly contrary to Roger Zelazny's last wishes regarding Amber.
RPGpundit
I often wonder why Zelazny imposed that. He had already allowed Neil Randall to write The Black Road War (not very good), Seven No Trump (really quite good) and the Visual Guide (truely awful) as well as co-authoring A Secret In Amber.
Its really a shame cos I expect a lot of pretty good authors would have contributed to an Amber anthology as opposed to getting Betancourt's garbage (bad writer, awful plot, weak characters, no originality - but only judging from the first book as I couldn't stand it.).
Imagine a series of short stories from Gaiman, Greenwood, Thomas, Norton etc.. would have been sweet.
There are a couple of things happening here:
1. The two which-way books were considered by Roger to be more like kids' books and as such he didn't think that his readers would try to fit them into the cycle.
2. The game logs in Amberzine were limited in publication quantity, which helped him to retain control over the Amberverse. And as "game logs" they weren't technically fiction, although most of us thought of them like more short stories. (Although not canon.)
3. I don't believe that Roger ever expected Greenwood's story to actually be published. It was a fluke thing that the two of them did over the years and it only amounts to a couple pages of material, tops.
Bottom line was that Roger apparently didn't think that any of these external sources really "counted" as Amber material, even though he allowed them to exist.
I do wish he had authorized a true shared-world anthology. There are some big-name authors who refused to have anything to do with the franchise before Betancourt agreed, and it would have been fun to see what Gaiman or Brust could have done with the characters.
It might have been, but it also might have been crap. And I think Roger rightly feared that Amber could end up like the Cthulhu Mythos or Conan, with later authors, despite some being of good quality, also fundamentally changing the essence of the story he was trying to tell, particularly since while you might have had a small group of great authors releasing an anthology of Amber-set stories that might have been really entertaining, you could also just as easily have ended up with Amber's own equivalent of R.A. Salvatore releasing a never ending stream of hundreds of absolutely crap Amber-serial novels. Imagine Brande coming back from the dead and turning into a brooding two-dimensional Drzzt-clone in 50 utterly formulaic trash-novels, or something along those lines.
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;372216It might have been, but it also might have been crap. And I think Roger rightly feared that Amber could end up like the Cthulhu Mythos or Conan, with later authors, despite some being of good quality, also fundamentally changing the essence of the story he was trying to tell, particularly since while you might have had a small group of great authors releasing an anthology of Amber-set stories that might have been really entertaining, you could also just as easily have ended up with Amber's own equivalent of R.A. Salvatore releasing a never ending stream of hundreds of absolutely crap Amber-serial novels. Imagine Brande coming back from the dead and turning into a brooding two-dimensional Drzzt-clone in 50 utterly formulaic trash-novels, or something along those lines.
RPGpundit
I would agree with that if he had done a JK Rowling and really kept a tight grip on the story. I mean he had already authorised The Visual Guide which is shit (and the adventure books) And thanks to a lack of tight control HP Lovecraft will live on long after Zelazny's name is forgotten. Arkham Assylum has entered the world's literature as an archetype.
And of course the result of his actions was that rather than his work being taken on by a friend like August Derleth who was sensitive to the source material we get the Benatcort novels which are just about as bad as it could get.
And for those folks that haven't tried those adventure books I recommend them. Seven No Trump is actually very good (Black Road War less so) and definitely captures a feel for the Amberverse and I don't think they are particularly childish either.
I wish he had approved other authors writing in the Amberverse. By maintaining such a tight control over the IP, the net result would appear to be that the entire franchise is dying a slow and quiet death.
No new books. No new short stories. No movie or scifi miniseries. No movement on the RPG in a decade. You can't find many active webpages for campaigns anymore. Roger's books are hardly ever in bookstores.
Essentially, Amber is dying and no one appears able or willling to stop the bleeding.
Quote from: finarvyn;372373I wish he had approved other authors writing in the Amberverse. By maintaining such a tight control over the IP, the net result would appear to be that the entire franchise is dying a slow and quiet death.
No new books. No new short stories. No movie or scifi miniseries. No movement on the RPG in a decade. You can't find many active webpages for campaigns anymore. Roger's books are hardly ever in bookstores.
Essentially, Amber is dying and no one appears able or willling to stop the bleeding.
There was some movie and tv interest. Warner Brothers were working on a treatment about 10 years ago and the Sci Fi channel had rights to a mini series... but all came to nought.
What really suprises me though is that more of ADRPG didn't become standard in the RPG sphere. The attribute auction is the obvious one. I can see the diceless mechanic causing issues cos it's diceless but also because there are very few rules to it so it's going to turn off a lot of folks but even so you would have expected to appear in some other formats.
I was okay with the betancourt novels until the third one. Yes they were bad but I was happy to read about amber again. There was a lot of possiblities to them but I believe he screwed them up with a prequell with oberon. If he created his own character or even did a event like the battle of gheneth. It might have been more accepted. Instead he rushed it and did a half ass job. The Merlin series I didn't like but enjoy reading them because they are amber books. Though I believe zelanzy wrote them for gamers.
Quote from: jibbajibba;372403What really suprises me though is that more of ADRPG didn't become standard in the RPG sphere. The attribute auction is the obvious one. I can see the diceless mechanic causing issues cos it's diceless but also because there are very few rules to it so it's going to turn off a lot of folks but even so you would have expected to appear in some other formats.
There's a game called Zombie Murder Mystery produced by the folks at dungeonmastering.com that uses the attribute auction. You can tell they've played Amber.
Quote from: finarvyn;36508813. Prolog to "The Trumps of Doom" (Merlin POV; 1985)
14. “The Salesman's Tale” (Luke POV; 1994)
20. “The Shroudling and the Guisel” (Merlin POV; 1995)
21. “Coming to a Cord” (Frakir POV; 1995)
22. “Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains” (Corwin POV; 1995)
23. “Hall of Mirrors” (Corwin POV; published 1996)
24. “A Secret in Amber” (Corwin POV; 1995)
Interesting to note that
The Collected Stories of Roger Zelazny puts Ed Greenwood's yarn a lot earlier than my list.
QuoteProlog to Trumps of Doom
A Secret of Amber (with Ed Greenwood)
The Salesman's Tale
Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains
The Shroudling and the Guisel
Coming to a Cord
Hall of Mirrors
I'm not sure of their rationalle for this, but perhaps they tie it back to actual order written as opposed to order it might fit better in the chronology. I still need to read the
CSoRZ to see what (if anything) they have to say about it.
Quote from: finarvyn;372373I wish he had approved other authors writing in the Amberverse. By maintaining such a tight control over the IP, the net result would appear to be that the entire franchise is dying a slow and quiet death.
No new books. No new short stories. No movie or scifi miniseries. No movement on the RPG in a decade. You can't find many active webpages for campaigns anymore. Roger's books are hardly ever in bookstores.
Essentially, Amber is dying and no one appears able or willling to stop the bleeding.
But surely you're not saying that having other authors write derivative stories of the original opus is the only good way to preserve a legacy?
If the Amber legacy is not doing well, its not because R.A. Salvatore (or Neil Gaiman, for that matter) isn't writing a dozen amber knock-off novels.
Look at Lord of the Rings, the works of Asimov or Heinlein. These don't have series written in their universes, and they continue to be popular. On the other hand, Dune has had an entire series of utterly shit novels written about it that have done nothing but harm to the original novel.
I think that if Zelazny is doing poorly in terms of legacy, its for one of two reasons: either Zelazny is just not that great or not that relevant (which I do not believe to be the case) or the people in charge of his estate are really blundering the opportunities to handle it because they had a blinkered-vision of choosing the cheapest crappiest method of making a quick buck.
Does anyone think that in this day and age you could end up making Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, or Amber (not to mention any other number of Zelazny works) as spectacular movie or tv-fare?
RPGPundit
Quote from: jibbajibba;372403What really suprises me though is that more of ADRPG didn't become standard in the RPG sphere. The attribute auction is the obvious one. I can see the diceless mechanic causing issues cos it's diceless but also because there are very few rules to it so it's going to turn off a lot of folks but even so you would have expected to appear in some other formats.
The ADRPG, along with Over the Edge (that came out fairly close to the same time) both ended up being INCREDIBLY influential in RPG-concepts, but more on a meta-scale than in the borrowing of specific mechanical concepts. Those two are like the Velvet Underground of RPGs; if they sold a thousand copies, they inspired a thousand records.
Also, I can think of no other RPG written in the early 90s with no significant product release in the last 15 years that has as huge a fandom, and entire conventions dedicated to it; its really unique. Can you think of any other RPG line who's last product came out in 1994 that has had anywhere near the ongoing success?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;373874The ADRPG, along with Over the Edge (that came out fairly close to the same time) both ended up being INCREDIBLY influential in RPG-concepts, but more on a meta-scale than in the borrowing of specific mechanical concepts. Those two are like the Velvet Underground of RPGs; if they sold a thousand copies, they inspired a thousand records.
Also, I can think of no other RPG written in the early 90s with no significant product release in the last 15 years that has as huge a fandom, and entire conventions dedicated to it; its really unique. Can you think of any other RPG line who's last product came out in 1994 that has had anywhere near the ongoing success?
RPGPundit
Exactly my point its a game that on its own merits has survived against the odds which means it has something going for it and yet I don't think it has any influence on other games. Aside from the obsure example quoted by downeymb and the diceless Nobilis perhaps I can think of no other games that embrace any of the Amber principles which I would list as
i) Diceless mechanic - with focus on roleplay supplementing attribute comparison to resolve conflicts
ii) Internal group antagonism - PCs are not a party but individually driven agents who's objectivies are often conflicted and opposed
iii) Attribute auction as an alternative point buy system
iv) So much focus on PC character to the extent where the characters skills and attributes are secondary to 'backstory' and roleplay
Now to be fair I haven't played many new games in the last 15 years and I may well have missed a glut of games that carried these traits but certainly none are mentioned on this board. Game of thrones might have had some elements coming as it does from a similar origin (ie a novel where the protagonists are in conflict).
Quote from: jibbajibba;373945Exactly my point its a game that on its own merits has survived against the odds which means it has something going for it and yet I don't think it has any influence on other games. Aside from the obsure example quoted by downeymb and the diceless Nobilis perhaps I can think of no other games that embrace any of the Amber principles which I would list as
I'd add to the list Everway, surely influenced by ADRPG.
Quote from: RPGPundit;373871But surely you're not saying that having other authors write derivative stories of the original opus is the only good way to preserve a legacy?
If the Amber legacy is not doing well, its not because R.A. Salvatore (or Neil Gaiman, for that matter) isn't writing a dozen amber knock-off novels.
Look at Lord of the Rings, the works of Asimov or Heinlein. These don't have series written in their universes, and they continue to be popular. On the other hand, Dune has had an entire series of utterly shit novels written about it that have done nothing but harm to the original novel.
I think that if Zelazny is doing poorly in terms of legacy, its for one of two reasons: either Zelazny is just not that great or not that relevant (which I do not believe to be the case) or the people in charge of his estate are really blundering the opportunities to handle it because they had a blinkered-vision of choosing the cheapest crappiest method of making a quick buck.
Does anyone think that in this day and age you could end up making Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, or Amber (not to mention any other number of Zelazny works) as spectacular movie or tv-fare?
RPGPundit
Totally agree with you: Zelazny won 6 Hugo and 3 Nebula. Those are facts that prove he is a relevant writer.
Quote from: RPGPundit;373871Does anyone think that in this day and age you could end up making Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, or Amber (not to mention any other number of Zelazny works) as spectacular movie or tv-fare?
Actually, yes. I think that
Jack of Shadows is tremendously suitable for film adaptation.
Other works that would be awesome as films are
Wilderness, Roadmarks, A Dark Traveling, A Night in the Lonesome October, Bring me the Head of Prince Charming (this, plus the sequels would make awesome
Shrek-style animated films),
Doorways in the Sand, This Immortal, Damnation Alley (again), and many of his short stories.
Call me a heretic, but I think that Amber is one of the
least filmable things he's written, in terms of the scope, the number of characters, the pacing, and the narrative challenges.
Quote from: jdurall;374047Call me a heretic, but I think that Amber is one of the least filmable things he's written, in terms of the scope, the number of characters, the pacing, and the narrative challenges.
You're a heretic. :p
I think that Amber is potentially very filmable, but it has to be done right. You would have to give the plot time to develop, much like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. You couldn't do much with Amber in a single 90-minute movie.
Quote from: RPGPundit;373871But surely you're not saying that having other authors write derivative stories of the original opus is the only good way to preserve a legacy?
Certainly not, but I am suggesting that new material often attracts new readers.
Tolkien has had success by (1) having his books continually in print, (2) by having extra books like HOME published, (3) by having role-playing, wargame, and miniatures gaming products printed, and (4) by having cartoons and eventually movies. If Tolkien's books had gone out of print and no additional things would have been created, perhaps he would vanish from the shelves as well no matter how good the books might be.
Zelazny's books are hard to find, the games are even more rare and not supported. At least when the Betancourt books came out there was some level of "buzz" and something with Zelazny's name and Amber on a shelf somewhere.
Quote from: jibbajibba;373945Aside from the obsure example quoted by downeymb
Zombie Murder Mystery just came out in the last few months I think. We'll see if it catches on.
Quote from: jibbajibba;373945ii) Internal group antagonism - PCs are not a party but individually driven agents who's objectivies are often conflicted and opposed
I would add the game Paranoia to that list. Very Orwellian fun where everybody kills and blames each other. Not very good for a long extended campaign though.
Quote from: downeymb;374069Zombie Murder Mystery just came out in the last few months I think. We'll see if it catches on.
I would add the game Paranoia to that list. Very Orwellian fun where everybody kills and blames each other. Not very good for a long extended campaign though.
It also predates ADRPG by about 12 years so ... :)
Quote from: finarvyn;374057Certainly not, but I am suggesting that new material often attracts new readers.
Tolkien has had success by (1) having his books continually in print, (2) by having extra books like HOME published, (3) by having role-playing, wargame, and miniatures gaming products printed, and (4) by having cartoons and eventually movies. If Tolkien's books had gone out of print and no additional things would have been created, perhaps he would vanish from the shelves as well no matter how good the books might be.
Zelazny's books are hard to find, the games are even more rare and not supported. At least when the Betancourt books came out there was some level of "buzz" and something with Zelazny's name and Amber on a shelf somewhere.
Tolkien and Zelazny are simply not comparable. The LOTR is a life's work it contains the richest background and depth of any fantasy novel. there is so much to mine from Tolkein's notes alone that his son has relaeased more than a dozen compilations to keep fresh product in the stores.
Zelazny is a different beast. Nine Princes was written to pay bills. Zelazny is even internally inconsistent in his own world mixing dates and birth orders. I suspect at the time he never even thought that the books would be around much longer than a few years.
Its a greater truth to compare Zelazny to Leiber and we aren;t see a lot of Grey Mouser film/book/game adaptations well apart from D&D of course :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;374113Zelazny is a different beast. Nine Princes was written to pay bills. Zelazny is even internally inconsistent in his own world mixing dates and birth orders. I suspect at the time he never even thought that the books would be around much longer than a few years.
I'm not convinced about this, because at page 60 of the Great Book of Amber, Nine Princes in Amber, Corwin while is walking the Pattern of Rebma, starts to remember and says, through the words of Zelazny: "... and even now, as I stand contemplating the Courts of Chaos, telling this story to the only one present to hear, that perhaps he may repeat it, that he will not die after I have died within, even now, I remember thee with love, city that I was born to rule..."
So in the very first book Zelazny already knew that Corwin in the last book would have been telling his tale to his son Merlin, at page 574, The Courts of Chaos.
Quote from: Evermasterx;374418I'm not convinced about this, because at page 60 of the Great Book of Amber, Nine Princes in Amber, Corwin while is walking the Pattern of Rebma, starts to remember and says, through the words of Zelazny: "... and even now, as I stand contemplating the Courts of Chaos, telling this story to the only one present to hear, that perhaps he may repeat it, that he will not die after I have died within, even now, I remember thee with love, city that I was born to rule..."
So in the very first book Zelazny already knew that Corwin in the last book would have been telling his tale to his son Merlin, at page 574, The Courts of Chaos.
Really, all he does is mention a place with an intriguing name and the existence of an (anonymous) addressee -- there's no evidence to suggest that he had much more than that.
Quote from: jibbajibba;374107It also predates ADRPG by about 12 years so ... :)
Actually,
Paranoia was published in 1984, which predates the 1991 publication of
ADRP at only 7 years. However, all accounts point to the fact that
ADRP actually saw play as early as 1986, which is only 2 years after
Paranoia. Personally, I doubt that
Paranoia had any significant impact on the development of
ADRP, but I might be wrong...
Or was there another reason for making the "predate" statement?
Quote from: finarvyn;374467Actually, Paranoia was published in 1984, which predates the 1991 publication of ADRP at only 7 years. However, all accounts point to the fact that ADRP actually saw play as early as 1986, which is only 2 years after Paranoia. Personally, I doubt that Paranoia had any significant impact on the development of ADRP, but I might be wrong...
Or was there another reason for making the "predate" statement?
Hehehe, we were looking for ways in which ADRPG influenced future games not what games influenced amber
Quote from: finarvyn;374467Actually, Paranoia was published in 1984, which predates the 1991 publication of ADRP at only 7 years. However, all accounts point to the fact that ADRP actually saw play as early as 1986, which is only 2 years after Paranoia. Personally, I doubt that Paranoia had any significant impact on the development of ADRP, but I might be wrong...
Or was there another reason for making the "predate" statement?
Erick did write material for
Paranoia during the development of ADRP, so I can't imagine there was no impact.
Ouch. Can't believe that I forgot about Erick's Clones in Space module! :o
There are a ton of games that were influenced by the ideas presented in Amber, without directly imitating rules.
Guardians of Order's games, pretty well all of them, had some extremely obvious amber influences, right down to gaming advice copied almost word-for-word from the Amber manual.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;376820There are a ton of games that were influenced by the ideas presented in Amber, without directly imitating rules.
Guardians of Order's games, pretty well all of them, had some extremely obvious amber influences, right down to gaming advice copied almost word-for-word from the Amber manual.
RPGPundit
Two of the main guys in Guardians of Order, Mark Mackinnon and Jesse Scoble, were serious
Amber fans and players. I met them back before they'd formed GoO, at an Ambercon in Detroit.
Funny story they told me... Mark gave Erick a manuscript copy of the rulebook for BESM before it went to press, seeking feedback. Erick suggested he have it printed "backwards", like authentic Japanese manga, and put a page of fake Japanese text on the back cover.
Mark decided that it might not be the best idea for the US/Canadian market, and decided to print it the way he'd originally planned.