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Author Topic: Resolving "abuse" of sorcery  (Read 4426 times)

hgjs

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2009, 11:20:13 AM »
My feeling is that if one player managed to set up a circumstance where he's ambushing a target without any ranged weapon from 500 yards away, he has thoroughly outmanuevered the other player and *ought* to win.
 

gabriel_ss4u

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2009, 03:56:33 PM »
Quote from: hgjs;310120
My feeling is that if one player managed to set up a circumstance where he's ambushing a target without any ranged weapon from 500 yards away, he has thoroughly outmanuevered the other player and *ought* to win.


Is that so? Even if the player who set up an ambush sucks at ambushes, and the player being ambushed is adept at sensing and avoiding ambushes according to character stats????

very narrow view my friend.

I love the cliks & cabals, the plots & plans of Amber, it is some of the true flavor of the game.
But when a sense of 'player vs. GM' turns into 'player vs. player', I think the essence of the game is being lost.
Sure it has it's uses, like in Throne wars or to prove a point, or if the characters are actually enemies, sure.
Thoroughly out-maneuvered?
As a GM it is 'behinds the scenes knowledge'.
As a player it is 'an assumption'.
Which one are you in this game scenario hgjs?
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SunBoy

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2009, 04:27:21 PM »
Yeah. Remember that, in Amber, any character can reach any place in a matter of seconds, so "being 500 yards away with a rifle" hardly counts as a smart maneuver. Furthermore, amberites can supposedly "sense" or somehow "feel" other real beings while in the same shadow... it's not a very often applied rule, but it's there. So I don't really think it counts as outsmarting someone.
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weilide

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2009, 05:13:54 PM »
I think what this conversation illustrates is that ADRPG is not a completely fair, watertight system because it is based on series of novels that Zelazny wrote without ever worrying about making a world that is entirely jackass-proof. NPiA is probably about as close as we come in the books to a pure throne war scenario but even there people do not behave as though the only criterion for success in life is gaining the throne and killing everyone else off. Eric is persuaded to merely blind Corwin rather than killing him because of all sorts of other concerns: fear of his blood curse, very possibly fear of Oberon's reaction should he return, etc. Likewise, in the RPG there's really no good reason why someone should not be able to lure all the other PCs into a field, nuke it from space, and then go off and hide in a bunker for the rest of time. The check on this behavior should be pressure from King Random, the PCs' own parents as well as those of the victim(s), and so on. But this only works if the offending player is actually interested in playing a character who wants more out of life than killing everyone else just for the hell of it. As I say, if you have a player whose only desire is to kill everyone else and who obdurately refuses to acknowledge any kind of in-game social pressure then it seems there isn't much else to do other than try to find a better class of player.  It's somewhat akin to playing ping pong with someone who wants get a good volley going versus someone who smashes the ball across the table every chance they get. I suppose that's technically "winning" in some narrow sense but it just doesn't seem that fun to me. Now, I realize that this little rant works quite a bit less well in the context of a throne war, which is supposed to be much more cutthroat, but even then it seems like a little nuance is desirable if the goal is to ultimately to have a good time…

hgjs

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2009, 05:35:11 PM »
Quote from: SunBoy;310172
Yeah. Remember that, in Amber, any character can reach any place in a matter of seconds, so "being 500 yards away with a rifle" hardly counts as a smart maneuver. Furthermore, amberites can supposedly "sense" or somehow "feel" other real beings while in the same shadow... it's not a very often applied rule, but it's there. So I don't really think it counts as outsmarting someone.


Yes, it is very difficult to effectively ambush a high-Warfare Amberite.

That's why, if somene pulls it off, it means that they've managed to thoroughly outmaneuver the other player.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;310165
Is that so? Even if the player who set up an ambush sucks at ambushes, and the player being ambushed is adept at sensing and avoiding ambushes according to character stats????


If the player whose character is trying to set up the ambush sucks at it, his character probably wouldn't have succeeded.

Quote
But when a sense of 'player vs. GM' turns into 'player vs. player', I think the essence of the game is being lost.


I disagree with this entirely for a game like Amber.  It's not a traditional party structure game; it's members of a royal family struggling against each other for position.
 

gabriel_ss4u

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2009, 09:41:52 PM »
Quote from: hgjs;310192
Yes, it is very difficult to effectively ambush a high-Warfare Amberite.

That's why, if somene pulls it off, it means that they've managed to thoroughly outmaneuver the other player.


hmmm.... once again, the GM knows of things going on you as a player most likely don't.


Quote from: hgjs;310192
If the player whose character is trying to set up the ambush sucks at it, his character probably wouldn't have succeeded.


depends on how good the character is at it too. A char. with a low warfare can come up with a great ambush from the 'player's' idea, but if his 'stuff' gets in the way, or the other player's char. stuff helps him, or has better warfare, it is not clear-cut. You can think this all you want, but to me, these are the attitudes that create players who constantly bicker with their GM.
If you have no trust in the story or GM, then you should find another way around it in game-play or find another game.
Not trying to be harsh, but you sound like gamers I refuse to game with.

Quote from: hgjs;310192
I disagree with this entirely for a game like Amber.  It's not a traditional party structure game; it's members of a royal family struggling against each other for position.


figures.
not always. there is a Machiavellian way of doing it. Same way James Bond's enemies do. They may also struggle against each other for recognition, favor, and title, among other things. Your view seems consigned to murder as an only attempt... if you are the 'nuke'em type'. Are you the player in question who failed at the long-range ambush? And may I ask, how long have you been playing Amber?
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hgjs

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2009, 12:12:31 AM »
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;310238
hmmm.... once again, the GM knows of things going on you as a player most likely don't.


While that's true, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Quote
depends on how good the character is at it too. A char. with a low warfare can come up with a great ambush from the 'player's' idea, but if his 'stuff' gets in the way, or the other player's char. stuff helps him, or has better warfare, it is not clear-cut.


I agree.  I phrased it poorly, but what I meant was, if the character has low Warfare then the GM will take it into account during the attempt and perhaps the ambush will fail: the target will detect the character due to something he didn't quite manage to hide, or there will be a way out that the would-be ambusher overlooked, or any number of things.

Quote
You can think this all you want, but to me, these are the attitudes that create players who constantly bicker with their GM.
If you have no trust in the story or GM, then you should find another way around it in game-play or find another game.


I'm not sure what attitudes you're talking about.  Your comment about not trusting the GM is a bizarre non sequitur.

Quote
Your view seems consigned to murder as an only attempt...


I'm not sure why you got that impression, since I didn't say that anywhere.  I said I see the game as fundamentally competitive.
 

Croaker

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2009, 01:15:09 AM »
Quote from: SunBoy;310172
Yeah. Remember that, in Amber, any character can reach any place in a matter of seconds, so "being 500 yards away with a rifle" hardly counts as a smart maneuver. Furthermore, amberites can supposedly "sense" or somehow "feel" other real beings while in the same shadow... it's not a very often applied rule, but it's there. So I don't really think it counts as outsmarting someone.

o_O Didn't recall this, save with pattern lenses, things like that. Where is it?
 

SunBoy

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2009, 02:37:01 AM »
Quote from: Croaker;310264
o_O Didn't recall this, save with pattern lenses, things like that. Where is it?

Just re-read it, and it wasn't just like I recalled. It's in the Advanced Pattern section, Pattern Recognition. It says that "Pattern blood will be noticeable by touch" and that "other Advanced Pattern masters will be obvious (...) sometimes even upon entering a common shadow".

@ hgjs, OK, point taken. If the guy actually managed to accomplish it, yes, he would have outmaneuvered the other, and should be able to take him by surprise. I just don't think that even then, a direct attack as in the case of the OP would be that effective, because then the other factors (warfare, pattern, etc.), would be into play yet again.

@ Gabriel: Far from me to start another fight with you, but I don't really see here where hgjs implied those kind of things. You are right, but I don't see how distrust in the GM is an issue here. He was proposing an scenario where the character had already succeeded at the ambush (as I found out just now).
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 02:44:47 AM by SunBoy »
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gabriel_ss4u

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2009, 09:58:55 AM »
Hmmm.. OK

The trap in question does seem like a min-max type of attack, I mean, the nuke from space was even compared, so I do feel there is a similar feel, that there is over-kill in an attempt to 'kill' another PC.
In the account to wit originally in this thread, it was a question of the GM's decision upon the ambush to me. I mean, if one's attack seems fool-proof, and doesn't work, I wouldn't whine. I've been there, I've had silly things like 'player-knowledge' and other players shouting out advice while their char. is not present to confound my actions in play when the char. knew nothing of events.
But kay-sera-sera.
I just felt there was a certain amount of feet stomping or tantram to 'my idea didn't work!' in the game in question. )(But lemme get otta this post, I'm in enough others, LOL)
just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:01:21 AM by gabriel_ss4u »
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Croaker

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2009, 03:42:22 PM »
Quote from: SunBoy;310274
Just re-read it, and it wasn't just like I recalled. It's in the Advanced Pattern section, Pattern Recognition. It says that "Pattern blood will be noticeable by touch" and that "other Advanced Pattern masters will be obvious (...) sometimes even upon entering a common shadow".

Aaaah! Yes, sure!

Thanks!

Anyway... Things are difficult, because, the player being usually dumber than the character (No offense intended), he may find himself in a position his character would have avoided.
Say, if Mr Dumbass plays the top-ranked warfare master, while his pal Mr Fantastic has just Chaos warfare but is a lot clever... Things will be difficult for the 1st player, just because of the players. Aside from the GM cheating or helping Mr Dumbass, he may very well find himself in bad situations the charactr he'd have liked to portrait would have easily avoided.
 

SunBoy

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2009, 08:44:54 AM »
And this is one of the strengths of the ADRPG, in my opinion. It may sound weird, but I just like that. I'd much rather have my character killed by my own actions than by a fudged dice roll.
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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2009, 05:55:37 PM »
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;310238
And may I ask, how long have you been playing Amber?


I've been playing Amber since BEFORE the RPG was first published, and I can say, without a doubt, that Amber very much should be about character vs. character (maybe not player vs. player, except in the "friendly" sense that, say, chess or RISK would be "player vs. player").

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2009, 07:34:24 AM »
I don't think redesigning the shape of the spell's affected zone (ie : what is turned to lava) should increase the speed of the transformation, so making it such a cube would mean the spell would be 500 times slower. Not a winning proposition. I'll add that "air" isn't exactly as easy to transform in lava than "earth", you can do whatever you want with shadow stuff, but there's not much to work with. Especially in shadows where there is no "air element" and the space above the ground is devoid of anything to work with (either the air is still or wind and breath and so on are separate aspects altogether).
That's a big point in my games, you can't just use a spell anywhere and expect it to work.

I'll add that Pattern Defense can suffuse the surrounding shadow stuff with the power of the Pattern, and make it resistent to tampering, which would block any attempt at casting this variant of the spell (lava burst could work since it opens a passage to get lava to come, instead of manipulating the present shadow stuff, and Pattern Defense don't stop movement).

jibbajibba

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Resolving "abuse" of sorcery
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2009, 01:32:04 PM »
Quote from: Sojiro;310723
I don't think redesigning the shape of the spell's affected zone (ie : what is turned to lava) should increase the speed of the transformation, so making it such a cube would mean the spell would be 500 times slower. Not a winning proposition. I'll add that "air" isn't exactly as easy to transform in lava than "earth", you can do whatever you want with shadow stuff, but there's not much to work with. Especially in shadows where there is no "air element" and the space above the ground is devoid of anything to work with (either the air is still or wind and breath and so on are separate aspects altogether).
That's a big point in my games, you can't just use a spell anywhere and expect it to work.

I'll add that Pattern Defense can suffuse the surrounding shadow stuff with the power of the Pattern, and make it resistent to tampering, which would block any attempt at casting this variant of the spell (lava burst could work since it opens a passage to get lava to come, instead of manipulating the present shadow stuff, and Pattern Defense don't stop movement).


there might be an issue with protecting the shadow around you from tampering with pattern. This woudl protect that area but if the plan is to alter the shadow stuff 50 feet up so it drops on you and similarly the speed of transformation woudl effectly create a flow (the first created stuff starts to fall etc...)
The matter stuff is more interesting. You might well argue that mass is the key. This is the case with shapeshifting remember where to add mass you need to absorb shadow matter. Air is of far lower mass than lava so the net reslt woudl be somethign like 125M cubic meters (500x500x500) of air becomes 10 cubic meters of lava (hell of a vaccum though)
However you could easily turn 125M cubic meters of air to 125M cubic meters of Carbon monoxide, Hydrogren sulphide or heat it to 1000 degrees or whatever so I think we need to come up from the specfics and deal with the theory.

The base point is how tough should sorcery be.

Should a well prepared sorcerer be able to cast a spell that kills a high warfare character? The how is less important but we assume using an environmental effect that does not directly attack the opponent but effects the surroundings.
What limits should there be on such actions?

Can I prepare a spell that has a lethal in an area effect. The area is set, the range is set, the effect is set the only lynchpin will be magic of shadow to make it work in a particular shadow.
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