TheRPGSite

I totally want to chop out the basic system from Amber, and parse it down, down, down, making it more universal to less-odd genres....     Something I've done with other games.  Basically, to build an ultralight game that is born from Amber.  And I DO MEAN ultralight.

However, the obvious question is this - what rules stuff strikes you as totally of the essence; in your opinion, the raw ideas that would make you say "hot Damn!" if you saw them elsewhere?

In my very humble opinion.

The setting will set some rules, like it or not.

For example, in a purely technological world without magic, psionics or anything like that. Psyche looses importance as an attribute, practically meaningless. I believe 4 is the magic number regarding attributes. Not only for flavour but it also keeps the balance of 100 point chargen which means less work. In this particular scenario i would replace Psyche with another one instead of just plainly removing it. For example, break apart Warfare into 2 attributes (Melee + Missile or WeaponMastery + Tactics/Speed, etc).

Regarding powers. You can remove Pattern if you are not in the Amber setting. This kills off lots of the cool things a character can do. Have to give the players some tradeoffs so they can, through points, be able to do more stuff. My advice would be to aim for lots of different assorted powers. Basically you allow the players to do unique stuff by buying all sorts of small powers instead of buying big cost packages. Adjust costs accordingly keeping in mind the value of attribute points now that people are just human. I would check other rulebooks of the particular setting to get a grasp for balance. (some superhero setting rpg to know how much heat vision should cost for example)

Basically (and you wanted ultra light :P)
1) if no magic, etc. Replace Psyche with another attribute.
2) tweak power list to a given setting. Adjust costs.

Quote from: Abrojo;219563In my very humble opinion.

The setting will set some rules, like it or not.

This has been my experience as well -- I don't believe in the "generic system". Each milieu is worthy of its own rules set.

No, I do believe that there are "generic rulesets" out there which can cover a certain range of genres and power levels very well.  I just don't believe Amber is one of them.
In part, because Amber is the kind of setting that most regular rules (particularly most "generic rulesets") cannot handle very well at all.  D20, GURPS, or BRP would all be godawful at Amber, for example.  And something like the Hero System might be able to handle it, but really, the survivors would envy the dead.

So the Amber rulesset was created specifically to handle the kind of setting that doesn't do well with your typical generic setup.

RPGPundit

ADRPG works well for the Amber setting because there are certain key assumptions made about the capabilities of the PCs and their ability to influence the world.

Because the PCs are Amberites (or equivalent) they will be stronger, faster, etc than the vast majority of NPCs, with only significant NPCs having attributes in the same range. The four attributes in ADRPG model this well by relegating most NPCs to Human or Chaos in rank and needing no further differentiation. In a different setting where everyone is on the same scale, or even a lot closer together, the simplicity of ADRPG either falls flat or else requires too much attention/too many marginally different ranks.

The system also works well in that the PCs, and through them the players, have a large degree of control over their environment in the Amber setting. If you stripped out the shadow manipulation and similar powers then, together with the trunkated range of attributes, you run the risk of individual PCs being too mechanically similar, and lacking the range of attributes and other powers to more effectively define themselves.

Which is not to say that it couldn't be done, merely that it would require work and that the ADRPG system isn't the obvious place to start.

Quote from: RPGPundit;219657So the Amber rulesset was created specifically to handle the kind of setting that doesn't do well with your typical generic setup.

Reviewing the rules further (and further and further - I haven't slept, yet, since that post up there), I tend to agree, now.  However, I do think that an ultralight amber-type game could be built to manage a kind-of genre.

So, you'd open up the rules, and see a note that says: "Compatibility: These rules require that your setting contain the following... (1), (2), (3); the rules will put these things front and center."

Contests of mind and will, and the presence of odd powers, are pretty high on that list.  Which generally means either a supernatural or a mythic world.  I'm tempted to say that much of the stuff on shadows could adapt to a single otherworld that is flexible in nature - a unpredictable Celtic Otherworld, maybe, and absolutely the psychoactive Wyld of Exalted, or a dreamworld.  Which, much as it will likely pain some setting fans to hear, also means that it could be used for a lot of Anime settings - certainly, a variant Paprika.  Or futurist setting where 'virtuality' intrudes on reality, like CyberGen.

Anyhow...  Yeah.   I think it's possible to say "these rules require and will emphasize these kinds of things.  Got 'em?"

Now I'm puzzling on what those are.

I disagree with the accpeted wisdom here. I think there is a core to the Amber system and I think its ultra-lightweight.

You can pick a number of attibutes. Amber uses 4 you could use from 3 to 6 and it still works. The GM can pick the attributes that fit the game they want to run. The Amberesque bit comes with the idea that these stats have no limits. You can put as much into a stat as you like (there should be some options to reduce it though only in a stepped way  so you start "average" but could be "bad" or "very bad"). The auction is the best way to assign these stats and it creates competition between PCs which is a core feature of Amber.
There are powers/skills that you can buy. The GM can select these to fit their game. a point spent in a power should be equivalent to a point in a stat. Stats have stepped levels at which you can perform the base tasks.
You can 'buy' other things the values of which are all relative to the cost. So a point in Strength should be as useful as a sword that cost a point.
The key element of Amber is all contests are resolved by comparison of the participants appropriate ability/skill + stategy and tactics. Contests are won by switiching them to areas you excel at.

So in Summary

i) There are 3-6 stats you spend points on and they are opened ended. Your abilities in these stats are measured in relation to the stats of your peers (NPC /PC or whatever). The best way to assign these stats is in some kind of an auction.

ii) There are skills/powers which you spend the same pool of points on. Abilities in these powers are stepped with thresholds but again the most important thing is your relative score compared to other pcs/npcs etc

iii) All contests are resolved by a comparison of relative ability + tactics, roleplay and cunning. To win a contest a character must manipulate it to become a contest in something they excel at.

These three rules are the rules of Amber all else is fluff

Example Star Wars the Diceless RPG

Based on the above theory...

100 point characters

Stats
Reflexes
Prowess
Guile
Willpower

Powers/skills
Force (Basic 25 points Advanced 50 points)
Pilot (Basic 15 points Advanced 25 points)
Technology (Basic 20 Advanced 40)
etc

Items egs ..

Freighter    Extra Fast +4
      Weapons +2
      [6 points]

LightSabre    [8 points]

Allies
Rebel Leader [2 points]
Lord of the Sith [6 points]
etc etc

well yes i agree, the core concepts can apply on other settings. But you do have to customize the core concept for a given setting since the ADRPG attributes, powers, etc are tailored for amberites.

Quote from: Abrojo;220159well yes i agree, the core concepts can apply on other settings. But you do have to customize the core concept for a given setting since the ADRPG attributes, powers, etc are tailored for amberites.

Yup but Levi was asking for a stripped down ADRPG that could be applied to other settings.

My advice, dump the rules and use the artifact and creatures system for everything. Use the 0 point, 1 point, 2 point, 4 point, 8 point, 16 point scale for stats, skills, abilites, powers, etc.

This way you end up with customizable skills and stats to be added depending on what your setting requires.
For example, Amber assumes you possess the skills that your character has decided to learn. In another setting, you can add skills that are general or specific and add them to your base stat independently according to whatever the situation demands.

I would forget about the Amber attributes altogether and just use the artifact point system.

You would end up with something similar to BESM in the sense that you will want to focus on what can be accomplished with this or that many points, and let the setting define HOW it would work.

I'm not the expert on Amber itself (though I did read nine princes and I have in fact used the system once or twice....), but I think I have to agree with.. well.. Jibbajabba essentially.

Amber can be applied to a veritable host of other games with only minor concessions to the fact that you aren't playing in AMBER. Change a few names here and there, come up with some standard method (if there isn't one) for ranking NPC's so they are credable threats and you can probably handle almost anything with variable, but minor, amounts of work.

Then again, I'm the guy that thinks MOST EVERY game is truely generic at the heart of it.  Thus the rise of various 'House systems' from companies... D&D even showed it could do credible justice to Modern and Sci-Fi without breaking a sweat, Amber could... if you REALLY wanted it... easily cover a game about a bunch of average joes at a coffee klatch dealing with relationship issues.

Oh... oh god... no.... Please don't anyone blame me when that abomination hits the shelves in the next few years. I didn't mean it...

Yeah, I think there are some core elements that still exist even when all of the setting is stripped away. I think that this is not only a do-able project, but one that I have tinkered with over the years.

1. The Attribute scale: I still like the point-build system and the general attribute scale. Obviously the names of the levels on the scale should be tweaked. -25 could be "below average" and -10 could be "average" and +0 could be "above average" to maintain the cinematic flavor of the game. That way, the typical hero is still above average at everything unless they want to sell-down an attribute.

2. The task resolution mechanic: I think that the essential "compare stats, high one wins, except..." is universal enough to stand alone.

3. The Four Attributes (almost): Essentially, these four can really do it all, with some potential modifications. Primarily to Psyche.

Strength -- pretty universal. More useful in low-tech games, less useful in science fiction settings, but universal.

Endurance -- same as Strength. As the "battery" that runs the other stats, it has a function in any setting.

Warfare -- pretty universal. Every setting you can imagine will require some element of combat.

Psyche -- this is the tricky one. In a Star Wars game Psyche can be "the force." In a fantasy game Psyche could be "magical aptitude." In a future game Psyche could remain psychic or become "technology." This is the one that I would let be a "floater" attribute to be customized slightly for the setting. In effect, Psyche becomes whatever mental abillity is needed in the particular setting.

4. Stuff: Also a key element in the ADRP mechanic and philosophy, but not at all setting specific.

5. Allies: Also pretty universal, if you change the language slightly. "Friend in Amber" could be "friend in high places" and so on.

6. Items: I'd have to go back to re-read, but I don't think that much of the item creation rules are that Amber-iffic. The general 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 scale can be applied to general descriptors to make it all fly.

7. What about the Powers?

Pattern, Logrus, Trump -- All setting specific and would have to be taken out of a "generic" rules set.

Power Words, Sorcery, Conjuration -- could be re-written slightly as "magic" and would fit most fantasy settings. Might be generic enough to apply to some scifi settings as well (e.g. the Force in SW).

Quote from: jibbajibba;220270Yup but Levi was asking for a stripped down ADRPG that could be applied to other settings.

And i agree (check my first post).
Was just nitpicking that the system will have to be customized and that you cant make a work-for-all-settings version.

Quote from: finarvyn;221363Psyche -- this is the tricky one. In a Star Wars game Psyche can be "the force." In a fantasy game Psyche could be "magical aptitude." In a future game Psyche could remain psychic or become "technology." This is the one that I would let be a "floater" attribute to be customized slightly for the setting. In effect, Psyche becomes whatever mental abillity is needed in the particular setting.

Agreed, this one is the problem child when talking custom setting.
Technology can do the job as a step in for psyche in a couple of settings. However one could argue that usage is sort of a skill and an attribute should be something more meaningful and therefore not balanced with the others.

Fortunately tweaking attributes is easier in Amber Diceless than in other systems because not everything is tied up together (not high dependance among system parts). So, as long as you have healthy attributes that make sense for GM interpretation and enable a balanced auction, should be good to go. Wont break other parts of the games from tweaking attributes.

Quote from: finarvyn;2213637. What about the Powers?

Pattern, Logrus, Trump -- All setting specific and would have to be taken out of a "generic" rules set.

Not only that but build more powers for the custom setting for more player options. Also when you stop being an amberite, lots of things that wherent important suddenly start being.
Perhaps this is the area that would need more work, not only for a proper list with good options for the player but also with some resemblance of balance regarding point cost.

Been drilling at this...   The game that comes out the other end is looking more like it'll be "inspired by Amber" rather than "Amber lite".

Diceless, deterministic, low number of stats, but the powers and conflicts won't be at all the same.

if you do strip out the "greater powers" ( trump, logrus, and pattern), you either need to nerf sorcery or increase it's cost.  The big reason why it's only 15 point is that it can't stand up to the "real" powers.   Personally I've always wanted to do the oppisite of what some other people want to do.  I've wanted to use the adrpg system instead of d20 once characters hit epic levels.

Quote from: Sargon;222047I've wanted to use the adrpg system instead of d20 once characters hit epic levels.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

indeed it does. Plus at that point the characters will probably have a decent amount of npc connections to do some good plotting amber style.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;221910The game that comes out the other end is looking more like it'll be "inspired by Amber" rather than "Amber lite".

Well ... yeah. :confused:

Of course you can't have Amber and you can't use Powers specific to Amber without getting permission to do it from the estate.

I thought that the whole point of the exercize was to reduce the game system to its essentials so that it could be used for other genres, not to create "Amber Lite".

"Amber Lite" is a lot easier.
1. Get rid of Shadow Knight and stick to the core rulebook.
2. Pre-determine an attribute scale so as to trim out the auction. Perhaps make use of the 1-2-4-8-16... sequence to set up the rungs of the ladder.
3. Get rid of Advanced and Exalted Powers and stick to the basic ones.
4. Erick is quite wordy as he explains how to resolve confllicts. Get rid of most of his text and focus on the key points.
5. In the same way, item creation becomes a series of simple charts rather than paragraphs. Stick to the 1-2-4-8-16 model for numbers.
6. Select a single version of each Elder rather than a choice of three.

There's probably more to it, but I'd have to think about it for a bit. The ADRP core rulebook is something like 250 pages. I'd trim it down to about 30-40 to make "Amber Lite."

Is that what you have in mind?