Quizical things from Zelazny's Amber.

[gabriel_ss4u]

2) Chapter 2; Stygalldwir (which IMC is of House Rammus)
"I am not one of the lesser ones" it states, and proceeds to fight Corwin. Corwin cuts it 2x and runs it through with Grayswandir, yet it STILL lives, til he snaps it's neck.

Has anyone used a demon of this level of power in their stories, that could withstand Pattern blades to a certain extent?
any thoughts on it?

I was hoping for more input on this one, any examples from anyone?

[Trevelyan]

Fun thread. As ever, I have opinions...

1) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

Random was clearly a little shit who once put a nail in Corwin's boot and waited for him to skewer his own foot for a laugh and, when we first met him, was the kind of guy who thought that abandoning his blind wife would be a good joke. I dare say he could have done any number of things that would have provoked his siblings to wish him dead. Remember that he consider himself to have gotten on better with Corwin than the others by virtue of staying out of Corwin's way. Then remember that nail in the boot and extrapolate...

2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

At the time Corwin was of the view that nothing outside of Amber was real, therefore everything real was contained within Amber.

3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?

He just didn't want to get his trumps dirty.

4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?

Is this a trick question? Clearly Fiona. The redheads were working together and by this time Brand had already gone his own way so Fiona was Bleys' only real ally. Consider also the parallel with the Merlin series where Bleys disappears to recover after his is shot and again Fiona is his contact with Amber. They are full brother and sister and clearly share each other's trust in all things.

5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

Nah, it's just the sort of stuff that Corwin tends to dream about.

6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanished into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon??

We know from Corwin that Avalon was eventually destroyed by a series of raids which he was only able to repel at great cost following the betrayal of Ganelon. I think Corwin is useing Chaos here to represent anarchy and the destruction of the society he created. Alternatively he may be again reerencing the belief that Amberites create shadows from nothing by visiting them, and suggesting that, in leaving forever as he did, Avalon disappeared.

1) In the 1st sentence of the 1st chapter;
'I stood there on the beach and said, "Good-by Butterfly," and the ship slowly turned and headed out toward deep water. It would make it back to the lighthouse at Cabra, I knew, for that place lay near shadow.'
Sorcery? he stood, not walked to manipulate Pattern...
This is before he has advanced Pattern.

Advanced Pattern is a concept invented for ADRPG, not a feature of the books. There are numerous references to charcters doing small shadow things and this is just one of them. It falls into the same category as fixing Flora's windows, and ultimate as finding Greyswandir in a hollow tree. If it makes it easier to accept, we can simple say that Corwin had travelled to a shadow with water and air currents which would direct the boat back through the shadow path he had opened when sailing from Cabra then let those currents take the boat away when he disembarked. Remember he was still some way from his intended destination at this stage.

2) Chapter 2; Stygalldwir (which IMC is of House Rammus)
"I am not one of the lesser ones" it states, and proceeds to fight Corwin. Corwin cuts it 2x and runs it through with Grayswandir, yet it STILL lives, til he snaps it's neck.

Has anyone used a demon of this level of power in their stories, that could withstand Pattern blades to a certain extent?
any thoughts on it?

I've mentioned before that I don't see evidence in the books for the notion that Pattern blade + Choasite = instant death (another ADRPG invention), and here is another example. Stygalldwir is perhaps suggesting that he is not some underling or lesser demon, but nothing really marks him out as being exceptionally powerful other than that he doesn't abid by the rules of an RPG written several years after this story was published.

3) Chapter 4/1st paragraph ,  "Arrow of Desire"
'I unleashed an arrow of my desire into the midnight and it took fire overhead, burned it's way like a meteor into the north.'

any explanations to this? Possibly a way or precursor to lead into the Shadow of desire he was going to, Avalon?
Perhaps the 1st sign on the path is a falling meteor into the north?

It's a bit of shadowplay similar to the boat rendered in slightly flowery language. At the most basic level, Corwin is seeking a shadow where a meteor or comet marks the path north, and using the motion of the arrow to provide the material around which to focus the shift (arrow to streak of light, rahter than blank sky to streak of light). We might speculate that this makes the shift slightly easier somehow, perhaps by providing something in the sy to change rather than making Corwin create something from scratch.

5) About 1/2 way through chapter 6;
"Version? It is my Avalon," he said
"Yes, this is my Avalon," he continued, "and I'll be coming back here for my opld age, if we live through Amber."

Has anyone though that Oberon as Genelon may have been saying the truth of things, and that if he did survive the Pattern remake, he may be in Avalon?

I personally don't think Oberon would have survived, but if he did then this could be as good a place for him to hide as any.

6) Chapter 7 / near the end of chapter.
'I moved off the road and stood in the shade, taking out the deck of Trumps Benedict had been carrying. I rifled through them, located Ge'rard, and removed him from the pack. The rest I returned to the silk-lined, wooden case, inlaid with bone, in which Benedict had carried them.
I held Ge'rard's Trump before me and regarded it.
After a time it grew warm, real, seemed to stir. I felt Ge'rard's actual presence. He was in Amber

Warm? Is this the only place they are warm, not cool?
This is slightly confusing to me. anyone?

The most obvious answer is that Zelazny slipped up, much the same as having the time flows between Amber and Chaos vary to suit the needs of the story. In practice we know that straining to use a trump makes it colder and that a trump which cannot be used is of a normal temperature. Maybe a trump in use is actually warm?

7) Chapter 8      ...1/2 way through
"How did you cut the Black Road? You destroyed a section of it at the place you crossed over. How did you do it?"
"The Pattern." I said "If you ever get in trouble with that thing, hit it with the Pattern. You know how you have to sometimes hold it in your mind if Shadows begin to run away from you and things start going wild?"

Shadows run away from you and things go wild... anyone ever use this in scenario description? Near Chaos I understand, but anyone have any other ideas on it?

Again this is a product of Corwin's flawed world view at this stage. HE views shaodw in a largely solipsistic manner and is essentially struggling to find a way to rationalise the changes that occur in the more fluid shadow enviroments closer to Chaos. The shadows aren't running away from him so much as they change more swiftly due to natural causes than he is able to focus on details and enforce his own changes.

I'd imagine that this is a standard problem in certain parts of shadow, and might explain why the forces of Chaos favour the use of black roads which cut through the natural environment. Certain individuals might muster the willpower or momentum to break through this barrier, or circumvent it using trump or other methods, but this range of shadow, close to Chaos could be problematic for many travellers and the source of discontent between the two powers if it occurs due to interplay between Pattern and Logrus. We know that shadows immediately adjacent to Chaos are apparently more stable, if less solid so perhaps they are fallout from this more chaotic zone, or the final detritus from shadow storms salvaged before they tumble inot the abyss.

Definitely some story potential there...

Chapter 9, near end.
;
"No, I'm not going to give you my death curse,. I've reserved that for the enemies of Amber - out there. "He gestured with his eyes. He pronounced it then, in a whisper, and I shuddered to overhear it.

Time to play RZ, if you could pronounce Eric's death curse, how would you word it? What do you think he stated in that Amberite shuttering phrase?

I wouldn't like to even contemplate it. Curses which would make even Corwin shudder are best left to the imagination where they retain their full power, rather than rendered in full and found wanting.

[scottishstorm]

5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

Nah, it's just the sort of stuff that Corwin tends to dream about.

Hmm.  Possibly.  Consider it another bit of the JoJ mystery/legend?  Eric, at the time, was playing with his new red toy.  He never took the thing off and he seemed to be trying to test the scope of what he could do with it.

[scottishstorm]

I personally don't think Oberon would have survived, but if he did then this could be as good a place for him to hide as any.

(referencing re-drawing/fixing the Pattern)

From an ADRPG perspective, I think it's significant that Oberon did NOT survive.

Oberon is (was) leaps and bounds more powerful than any DRPG character should ever be (at least in a general sense.  Oberon 'spikes' amazingly high on stats and powers).  In many ways, he represents the 'Amber Pinnacle' better than any novel character before or since.  Oberon is (was) godly.

He was not infallible or indestructible.

Lesson learned for ADRPG players, that!

[gabriel_ss4u]

(referencing re-drawing/fixing the Pattern)

From an ADRPG perspective, I think it's significant that Oberon did NOT survive.

Oberon is (was) leaps and bounds more powerful than any DRPG character should ever be (at least in a general sense.  Oberon 'spikes' amazingly high on stats and powers).  In many ways, he represents the 'Amber Pinnacle' better than any novel character before or since.  Oberon is (was) godly.

He was not infallible or indestructible.

Lesson learned for ADRPG players, that!

Hmmm....
yet Corwin survived creating one after being so exhausted, I'd imagine his father would too. That is my thought on it.

(thanks for the long list Trevelyan, good thoughts. I like that you addressed them all, even if i don't agree with all your speculations)

[weilide]

Hmmm....
yet Corwin survived creating one after being so exhausted, I'd imagine his father would too. That is my thought on it.

(thanks for the long list Trevelyan, good thoughts. I like that you addressed them all, even if i don't agree with all your speculations)

In the books Dworkin argues to the contrary:

"Where is your memory?" he said. "You know that it would be infinitely more difficult to repair the damage than it would be to start over again. Even the Jewel could more easily destroy it than repair it. Have your forgotten what it is like out there?" He gestured toward the wall behind him. "Do you want to go and look at it again?"

"There you are," he announced, "the hole in my mind. I can no longer think through it, only around it. I no longer know what must be done to repair something I now lack. If you think that you can do it, you must be willing to lay yourself open to instant destruction each time you depart the Pattern to cross the break. Not destruction by the dark portion. Destruction by the Pattern itself when you break the circuit. The Jewel may or may not sustain you. I do not know. But it will not grow easier. It will become more difficult with each circuit, and your strength will be lessening all the while. The last time we discussed it you were afraid. Do you mean to say you have grown bolder since then?"

[scottishstorm]

Thanks, weilide.  I was going to make the same references.  You saved me some looking up/substantiating!


Yes, Corwin 'drew' his own Pattern, even after being so exhausted.  I think it's also fair to say that Corwin wither 1) overstates his exhaustion, or b) thrives on said exhaustion.  At several points in the Chronicles, Corwin makes a point of saying how damn tired he is then goes ahead and does something epic (*). But, that is neither here nor there.

(*tired, not at his best, etc.)

My point about the lesson learned from Oberon dying in his successful repair attempt still stands.  In a nutshell, some caution for the players (justified or not) is usually a Good Thing (tm).

Granted, though, Merlin repaired a Broken Pattern.  And, Merlin's Endurance is probably far less buff than his dad's.  But, Merlin bugs me.  I choose not to look at his actions as canon.  I enjoy the second series mainly for the nifty one-liners and quirky character interaction.  Plot stuff and cosmology, I draw from the first.  (Yes, yes, I'm omitting half of Zelazny's printed Amber books from canon.  Sue me!)

[weilide]

I aim to please. Anyhow, I actually like to consider all of the universe stuff (pattern ghosts, spikards, etc) from the Merlin series canon but usually take the end of the first series as the starting point for story.

[gabriel_ss4u]

thanks for the reminder weilide, I did need that.
still... Oberon surviving... I like to keep that thought in the back of my mind.
 I acknowledge the difficulty of the situation, and I understand that the patriarch of the family should shuffle lose his immortal coil so that the others can come into their fullness... however, being raised on comics, I feel there is always the chance of someone coming back, and that statement Oberon made gives me a warm fuzzy feeling of hope in that.

I do enjoy some campaigns I ran still having Oberon in the scene as the head honcho, present or not.
I also like jibba's way too, MoF, anyway it works well with a good plot/story, I like that.

[weilide]

The mechanics of the deed aside, I feel the more important thing about Oberon's death is that it shows a side of him that Corwin did not think existed, which reinforces the whole "slowly reaching maturity" theme of the first series. That said, if Oberon returns from time to time as a Pattern Ghost or what-have-you I certainly have no complaints...

[Croaker]

This might also be interesting.

Due to both of them maturing, you can consider Corwin and Oberon reaching an understanding of sorts towards the end of the books, and even some mesure of respect and affection.

But how will corwin react to the pattern-ghost of an earlier oberon, one who would treat him like a child? Wouldn't also this "desacration" of his father infuriate him?

[RPGPundit]

I don't know that he'd give a shit, considering how extremely blasè he was about meeting his own pattern-ghost.

RPGpundit

[gabriel_ss4u]

I think it might have more influence on Merlin to meet his Grandfather on Pattern side.

[Trevelyan]

I agree that Oberon bought it when he repaired the Pattern. He went in knowing he would die, he gave a final death blessing (instead of a curse), his funeral procession ran the length of shadow and most of the family attended his funeral where his body was cast into the abyss. It seems reasonable to assume he didn't survive.

Granted, though, Merlin repaired a Broken Pattern.  And, Merlin's Endurance is probably far less buff than his dad's.

The act of repairing a broken pattern is significantly different from that of repairing the damage to the primal pattern, though. Dworkin higlights to Oberon that the problem in repairing the normal pattern comes from leaving the existing lines each time you reach one of the break points. Yet a broken pattern has no existing lines and exerts no force on anyone who attempts to use the 'lines' to traverse it. The power of the proken pattern lies in the spaces between the lines, and Merlin's act of restoration is more akin to creating a new pattern from scratch, with the added bonus of only needing to draw on existing energy and not commit his own, than it is to anything Oberon did.

[gabriel_ss4u]

I agree that Oberon bought it when he repaired the Pattern. He went in knowing he would die, he gave a final death blessing (instead of a curse), his funeral procession ran the length of shadow and most of the family attended his funeral where his body was cast into the abyss. It seems reasonable to assume he didn't survive.


The act of repairing a broken pattern is significantly different from that of repairing the damage to the primal pattern, though. Dworkin higlights to Oberon that the problem in repairing the normal pattern comes from leaving the existing lines each time you reach one of the break points. Yet a broken pattern has no existing lines and exerts no force on anyone who attempts to use the 'lines' to traverse it. The power of the proken pattern lies in the spaces between the lines, and Merlin's act of restoration is more akin to creating a new pattern from scratch, with the added bonus of only needing to draw on existing energy and not commit his own, than it is to anything Oberon did.

All excellent points, and I appreciate the direction it's going, it made me think;
'How did Oberon cross the gaps?' I suddenly saw him in my mind's eye opening a vein and restoring sections, see him weaker as he progressed...
a crescendo in the Pattern center.
giving all of himself for his kingdom, Amber.

or other possibilities...