Partial Powers?

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I've never been a friend of Amber partial powers. Most GMs and players seem to like them, which is something I can accept, but not really understand. As a GM, it is great fun to see how players discover the possibilities of, let's say, the Pattern, after buying the "power package".

All the Pattern users in our campaign have developed completely different applications of their power, just by playing around with their toy. One of them discovered how to make "shadow pockets", while another developed a kind of "pattern force field".

All this stuff is only possible if you keep the powers system as Erick has designed it. Partial powers disrupt the flow of creativity.

What's your opinion?

[Otha]

So what you seem to be saying, is that people only invent new uses for powers when the possible uses for it aren't delineated into lists from which they can choose?

Yeah, I can see that.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

So what you seem to be saying, is that people only invent new uses for powers when the possible uses for it aren't delineated into lists from which they can choose?

Exactly. Partial powers offer you options, complete powers give you possibilities.

[Trevelyan]

I pretty much agree.

I've never been a fan of the point allocation of powers anyway and prefer running a much more freeform chargen. Auctions are good for establishing rivalries, but I like to determine the stats of characters in Amber using a combination of written background, point buy (at a couple of different levels i.e. 100pt, 250pt) and the auction.

Once I've got a feel for how the player perceives the character, where the priorities lie and how rivalries with other characters might muddy the water I assign points and rankings where I feel they aught to go without regard to numeric balance.

If players want additional powers under this process then they need to write them into the background, demonstrate commitment to that build during the auction and be prepared to suffer the narrative consequences (obligations to tutors, suspicion from certain relatives, etc) Characters usually face attribute penalties relative to other characters (you can't generally be as good at Warfare as the dedicated son of Benedict if you also study Sorcery and Trump).

Under this system, powers are just a title, and what each player can do with them is up to that individual. Characters develop their own special uses of powers similar to partial powers, but often more unique as the OP suggests.

[Arref]

I like the partial powers because they inform flexibility and judgment, in effect becoming a weighted yardstick for PCs sold down or bought up. They also provide a needed yardstick for experience with powers, PC growth and (gasp!) advanced powers if you want them.

Generally, Players are just as inventive with the yardstick as they are without it (if not moreso, once they see the potentials.)

[Nihilistic Mind]

My old group used to use a partial power system and to me it seems to work like video game character advancement when it comes to spending XPs, which is not what I play an RPG for. It was suitable when I was a teenager and our amberites had to be as bad-ass as possible. I loved it, in fact: why spend points for something you won't ever use, right?

I'm not saying a Partial Power system is inferior or anything, this is just my personal opinion.
I like smooth running game mechanics and it seems like a pain in the ass to keep track of what this PC can or cannot do. If they say 'I hellride after that guy', or 'I use the Pattern lens to look for this' I don't want to look at a checklist of yes or no; if the PC was committed enough to spend half or three-quarters of his allowance on the Pattern (based on a 100 point character creation, of course) then I know immediately what they can and cannot do. The ADRP rules are used as a basis and when they experiment and discover a new use for the power, I make them take notes about it... without a need to figure out how much it'll cost them.

Over the years I've grown to play games differently, where powers are very subjective to player and GM interpretation and where experience is not quantified with numbers but rather with in-game interactions.
If a PC experiments a bunch with a power, I reward them: with a new and innovative way to use a power, or with nasty things to deal with in the game. Either way the player is rewarded (right?) and no XP expenditure is necessary.

On the other hand, I could see how a Partial Powers system can help in a PBeM or something like that, where it's easier to identify your character's abilities with numbers. It's easier to establish your character as an individual that way... Of course, a well-thought-out, well-written background helps

[jibbajibba]

I am a heathen and love partial powers.
As a GM I think they have 3 advantages.
i) They allow characters to develop a power in an unusual direction without unbalancing the game
ii) They allow a character to learn a power they don't start the game with.
iii) You can work out new unique powers

To facilitate point i I don't actaully publish a list of what the power can do or what skills you can get for say 60 points of Pattern. I just ask the player how much they want to spend in a power and then ask then to select a path wthin the power and we work out which partial powers from my master list they can pick up. If they want something that isn't there then I determine the direction it kind of fits and tag it on to the end of that path. In an example from my current game one player wanted to be able to trace anyone through shadow. Hunting was his thing. So he gave me an idea of how many points he wanted to spend. I have a partial power to move without trace through Shadow it came after all the basic stuff and 'advanced shadow walk' (which is manipulating shadow in Amber) he didn't have quite enough points for that so I told him it would cost that and 5 points more for his unique power. He found the points and was happy I was happy and I felt that he had learn that special piece of Dworkin's Lore and paid an appropriate price.
With the Power sytem as written it is unlikely that players ever learn new powers. If you don't start with Pattern finding 50 points at some point to buy it is unlikely. Walking the pattern in the game should not be so difficult if you can role play yourself into that situation. But giving a player full pattern after a pattern walk is obviously problematic... does it come with 50 points of bad stuff to even itself out? If not what do you get how fast do you progress ? Partial Powers resolve this.
Lastly unique powers are expensive in the rules, deliberately so, but to ban them is to stiffle creativity partial powers resolve this. You can take a power work out its base components chop it up. You can also give a player who has a partial power an advancement route so that they can go on to expand it.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I am a heathen and love partial powers.
As a GM I think they have 3 advantages.

Okay, let's have a look.

i) They allow characters to develop a power in an unusual direction without unbalancing the game

The way my players experiment with their powers, new and unusual uses crop up very often. Regarding balance: I really don't care about it. It can be as much fun to play a vastly inferior Amberite as to play one of the elder powerhouses. To me, roleplaying (especially Amber) is all about becoming your character (call it "immersion" if you like), and I don't give a rat's ass about game balance.

ii) They allow a character to learn a power they don't start the game with.

Same goes with the powers as written by Erick. Players slowly discover their potential -- and end up with things they can do that they couldn't in the beginning.

iii) You can work out new unique powers

Er... tell me why this is an (exclusive) advantage of partial powers.

To facilitate point i I don't actaully publish a list of what the power can do or what skills you can get for say 60 points of Pattern. I just ask the player how much they want to spend in a power and then ask then to select a path wthin the power and we work out which partial powers from my master list they can pick up. If they want something that isn't there then I determine the direction it kind of fits and tag it on to the end of that path. In an example from my current game one player wanted to be able to trace anyone through shadow. Hunting was his thing. So he gave me an idea of how many points he wanted to spend. I have a partial power to move without trace through Shadow it came after all the basic stuff and 'advanced shadow walk' (which is manipulating shadow in Amber) he didn't have quite enough points for that so I told him it would cost that and 5 points more for his unique power. He found the points and was happy I was happy and I felt that he had learn that special piece of Dworkin's Lore and paid an appropriate price.

Nice description here, though I don't see why you think this shouldn't be possible with the "full" power system.

New players cough up the points for, let's say, Pattern Imprint. 50 bucks. I tell them what Corwin tells us about Pattern. Then I remind them that Corwin is not exactly your nice type of guy. I remind them of the possibility that Corwin lied, and even if he didn't, his tales would tell about his powers and abilities from his point of view. So, basically, what players get when they pay for their "full" powers, is a) potential, and b) scope ("Everything is possible").

With the Power sytem as written it is unlikely that players ever learn new powers. If you don't start with Pattern finding 50 points at some point to buy it is unlikely.

Well, in the novels it doesn't seem very easy to learn a new power. I mean, hey, people can die while trying to walk the pattern. It makes perfect sense to me that it's difficult to learn new powers. I don't say it impossible (because several of my players have done it -- after three years of playing), but I say it should be difficult. Very difficult indeed.

Walking the pattern in the game should not be so difficult if you can role play yourself into that situation. But giving a player full pattern after a pattern walk is obviously problematic... does it come with 50 points of bad stuff to even itself out? If not what do you get how fast do you progress ? Partial Powers resolve this.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with partial powers or not. This is about the players and the GM realizing drama potentials. I'm going to stick with your Pattern example above:

Each single one of my players knew that he could try to walk the Pattern without having 50 points to buy it. But the rules say: "Pattern Imprint: 50 Points". If you have them, great. Let's walk the Pattern, and let's tell a story about your heroic endeavor. If you don't have the points, I'll send out a warning. You are simply not up to the task. You can and most probably will die trying to walk the Pattern. So, the choice is yours. Maybe you survive it, and add a whopping 50 points to your Bad Stuff. Who knows? This is something I decide on the spur of the moment. What makes our story more interesting?

Lastly unique powers are expensive in the rules, deliberately so, but to ban them is to stiffle creativity partial powers resolve this. You can take a power work out its base components chop it up. You can also give a player who has a partial power an advancement route so that they can go on to expand it.

Like I wrote before, new powers aren't exactly something you happen to find round the next corner. There really is a difference between superhero rpgs and Amber, in this regard. Amber powers are the columns the entire multiverse rests on. This is not something like superspeed or spidercrawl. Subtract superhero powers from our world, and it still remains our world. Subtract Amber powers from our universe, and it vanishes into thin air. Makes perfect sense to me to make new powers e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e.

[Arref]

Most GMs and players seem to like them, which is something I can accept, but not really understand.

What's your opinion?

So is this thread about our opinions or you defending your opinion? Do you really mean you can accept it but not understand? Or do you mean that it is wrong to allow partial powers?

Because I can see it working both ways.
I don't think either method needs defending.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

So is this thread about our opinions or you defending your opinion?

It's about my opinions. And those of others. On an equal footing.

Do you really mean you can accept it but not understand?

Yes, indeed, I do. I really can accept, but I don't understand (yet). Point in case: jibbajibba's explanations. I can accept them (believe me, I'm a very tolerant person), but none of them makes really sense to me. So, I try to discuss them and understand the reasons behind them.

Or do you mean that it is wrong to allow partial powers?

Nope. To me, there's no wrong or right way to play a game. What I'm interested in is mainly the different opinions about playing. And partial vs. full powers is definitely something that is really interesting to me.

Because I can see it working both ways.

I can see that, too. But understanding is a different matter.

I don't think either method needs defending.

Same here.

[jibbajibba]

Okay I am posting a reply without posting quote hope you excuse that but the post and the comments ont eh post are quite sizable and this is more managable (IMO).

First of all you can do all this without Partial Powers and you play as you see fit but I think partials help a lot.

i) I am not convinced by the argument that you need a pool of points amassed to walk the pattern I am also not convinced that walking it is actaully all that hard. I will support the position from 2 directions , the novels and game examples.
In the novels no one that attempts to walk the pattern that bears the blood of Dworkin fails. No one. There is no reference to a fatality. We are not just talking about people who have  been trained here we are talking about all sorts of odds and sods, Coral, Dalt, Dara.
Now I would never tell my players this. If someone is walking the pattern in my game for the first time or in a weakened state there is a build up the veils the sparks. The throw away GM line, 'you really don't think you can make it through this section your legs feel like lead, you know if you fail its certain death... you still have that trump of Corwin, he said if you ever needed him? What you going to do?' I have used this tactic to make players give up walking the pattern half way through and trump someone to pull them out because they think they are going to die if they continue.

But I don't feel that when you have the pattern you get access to the whole bag and there is a possibility for power playing if you aren't careful. 'I won't take pattern but I start the game in Remba where I walk the pattern and then Its off to a super fast shadow to learn how to use it. ' I know it's juvenile and you would hope that most players would avoid it and you would have to make their life hell from then on but ... where as with a partial power system the risk goes away and because of that no one will try it. You walk the pattern you get 5 points of bad stuff and you can follow a clearly defined path through shadows if its laid by someone else (or whatever...)
Role-playing games must not just be fair they must be seen to be fair. Amber with its big chunk of DM discretion must be seen to be fairer than most.

ii) Additional Powers, my description outlined a power that is beyond basic pattern but does not have access to the full gamet of Advanced Pattern. You say why not do this within the standard rules, just let the guy have it as part of his basic pattern if he role plays the learning of it and it fits his idiom. I would say what you have there is a partial power system with out costing out the partial powers in points just in Roleplay effort. Not a bad system at all but its still a partial powers sytem. You just have a secondary cost.

iii) If you play a straight Amber game from the novels canon driven then I can see that you don't want to have new powers turning up. I might argue that one of the best bits of the novels is that new unknown powers turn up all the time, they are the main drivers of the plot but it turns out that these tend to be known unknows as they are extensions to other powers (Well of Worlds might just throw a spoke in there but I thought that was one of Zelazny's mistakes and so choose to ignore it). Ghostwheel is really an extension of trump, The Spikards an extension of Sorcery (?) etc ... maybe..
I don't really like straight Cannon games. I don't like having a cast of uber powerful NPCs that are both more numerous and more powerful  than the PCs and I don't like to say no to a good idea. I get rid of em all. There is Dworkin there is Oberon There might be some other people of a par with the PCs (or possibly not but ... secret) and there are the PCs they are the powers. In this world unique new powers are a boon they suprise and entertain but they need controlling and as stated above they have to be seen to be fair. Partial Powers give me that and let the player and work from from set rules about what they can and can't do.

[gabriel_ss4u]

All this stuff is only possible if you keep the powers system as Erick has designed it. Partial powers disrupt the flow of creativity.

What's your opinion?

I like the way it was originally designed.
sure, anyone who plays it long enough will see flaws and benifits, but the simplicity of it is what allows it to flow.

If I have a really cool James Bond car.... and have the attempt to find out all the things it does, rather than go to the shop after every mission to load up a new weapon/gadget, it (to me) allows for smoother, more varied threads of uses for the item/power during game-play, not to mention some added suspense and tension, well needed in a diceless game.  
That way also not every player will have the same (eventually) powers and use them in the same way.
 I really like the ideas that were come up with by Arref for the break-downs, but I use them as ideas, and if I choose to dis-include something from the main power, I'll design another major power.
I use Ygg Devotion
Tirna-N'gth Pattern
Avalon Pattern
Abyssal Imprint
Logrus
Elemental Eligies
Trump etc.
These all have the same uses of the original powers but slightly different effects.
Tirna N'gth Pattern has sleep travel options, etc.

I use Arref's breakdowns usually as hints or ideas for players on using their powers. He has some great detail, but in my earlier days, i learned I could over detail something to the point of confusion or complication.
I hope my Bond car analogy helps my opinion be understood.
With the original system, I can still find new players that have yet to discover their true abilities instead of looking at the laundry list and waiting for the chance to 'get it all'.
Peace!