This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Multiple foes  (Read 4346 times)

finarvyn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
Multiple foes
« on: December 04, 2006, 07:53:29 PM »
How does anyone handle this?

If you have a bunch of shadow red-shirts fighting against an Amberite, it's easy. What if you have several significant individuals fighting at the same time?

Erick says it's all about resolving conflicts one at a time, but I'm not so sure I see quite how this can work.

EXAMPLE: Person A has Warfare of 30 and is fighting Person B (W=20) and Person C (W=15). Who would win? (Assume identical Psyche, Strength, and Endurance, just for the sake of argument.)
* I assume it's not as simple as adding 30 < 20+15, so 30 loses.
* I also assume it's not really one-on-one: 30 > 20 and 30 > 15, so 30 wins.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Multiple foes
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 01:16:13 AM »
Well, this is one of those cases where multiple attributes become significant.  If the lone character is superior to both of the others in both Warfare and Endurance, he should be able to take both of them on.

If not, however, the lone character will need to drop one of his two opponents very fast in order to not get quickly exhausted by the effort of fighting both at once; and to do so he might have to make risky maneuvres that could lead to one of his two opponents putting Strength into play, which might also change everything.

And this is all without considering whether one side or the other makes use of dirty tricks.

RPGpundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Otha

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • O
  • Posts: 365
Multiple foes
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 06:23:19 AM »
You've pointed out another one of the 'holes' in the rules; it really doesn't tell you.

The GM just needs to pick a way to handle it and stick with it.
 

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Multiple foes
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 02:48:09 PM »
Quote from: Otha
You've pointed out another one of the 'holes' in the rules; it really doesn't tell you.

The GM just needs to pick a way to handle it and stick with it.


Its one of the things that makes Amber such a great game.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

James McMurray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • J
  • Posts: 4790
Multiple foes
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 02:50:21 PM »
Wow, you'd get villified at dumpshock for saying something like that. :)

Mr. Analytical

  • Guest
Multiple foes
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 06:35:08 AM »
I tend to take an average actually.  The idea being that while fighting on the side of someone really good will help to make you more effective, chances are you'll also get in his way quite a bit.

So the PC's 30 would beat the 20 and the 15 because they average out as 17.5, which is quite a gap.

Arref

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
    • http://www.skyseastone.net/itsog/
Multiple foes
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 08:30:27 AM »
Don't forget that based on Zelazny's choices in genre, trust, planning and commitment are involved in really combining efforts. For this reason, I've normally held a standard of combat cooperation based on two thresholds:

1. Have the characters practiced such trust in combat?

2. What is the warfare of the leader?
in the Shadow of Greatness
—sharing on game ideas and Zelazny's Amber

James McMurray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • J
  • Posts: 4790
Multiple foes
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 09:54:53 AM »
Quote from: Mr. Analytical
So the PC's 30 would beat the 20 and the 15 because they average out as 17.5, which is quite a gap.


Do you let the higher guy decide not to average by deciding not to help the weaker one? Alternatively, do you let unallied third parties force an average by gettign in the way as if they were an ally?

finarvyn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
Multiple foes
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 02:58:49 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Analytical
I tend to take an average actually.  The idea being that while fighting on the side of someone really good will help to make you more effective, chances are you'll also get in his way quite a bit.

So the PC's 30 would beat the 20 and the 15 because they average out as 17.5, which is quite a gap.

I liked that idea at first, but the problem would be that the average can be messed up sometimes.

1. What do you do with negative numbers? A character of W=20 fights an amberite of W=10 and a chaosite W=-10, so they average out to ... zero? The W=10 guy should kill his partner and improve his lot in life signifcantly. (I like the idea that Shadow is 5, Chaos 20, and Amber 30. Ranked would be x+30. Arref has a chart on his webpage where he assigns a "story value" to each attribute level, which has a similar effect.)

2. What about the effect of quantity on the average? So ... Mister W=20 fights another W=20 guy and 50 shadow creatures (who bring down the average). Agian, it would be better to kill the redshirts who are trying to help out.

I know that those are picky math details, but I think that way and need to consider potential situations where the math goes crazy.

I'm not trying to be a pain ... honest! :cool:
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

SunBoy

  • Intellectual Slapstick
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
Multiple foes
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2006, 04:54:15 PM »
I think it will eventually come down to tactics. The game is very rich in tactical maneouver description, and each holds advantages and disadvantages of its own. That´s another thing I love about Amber, there is no "Intelligence" or "IQ" or "Reasoning" value, so tactical thinking will fall onto the player. I know that actually the "tactical" part is covered by the warfare attribute, but in the given example, we can assume that being outnumbered by characters with high warfare themselves, the advantage of Mr. W=30 can be considered nulified to the point were what can save him is a good idea. Remember how Corwin beats Benedict, he is inferior, he knows it, and his rival knows it too, as a tactician as well as a swordman, but he manages to bring him down with a good idea. So, let's assume Mr. and Ms. Dummie frontally and directly attack Mr. Big Dude. Well, IMO he wouldn't have problems in the medium-to-long range to chop them down. But maybe Mr. and Ms. Dummie go for a flanking maneouver, or one goes all-out and the other only tries to disturb Mr. Big Dude, or their geographical position is superior (aka they've got higher ground), or they manage to take him to a terrain that's favorable for them... then Mr. Big Dude may be in trouble. In the other hand, Mr. Big Dude could try to concentrate the attack in the one he judges weaker to kill him fast, or could run for the hills in the hopes that if they follow him one's faster than the other so he can take on them one at a time, or, an all-time favourite, role-play his way out of the pinch.
And, if anybody followed my broken english all the way here, I'll just say I think it is a matter of common sense. And of course, the most important rule of it all: setting dirty corwinesque tricks aside, First Place wins. He may just tie against two one point fivers, but that's about it.


My hands hurt.
"Real randomness, I've discovered, is the result of two or more role-players interacting"

Erick Wujcik, 2007

finarvyn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
Multiple foes
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 09:58:27 PM »
Quote from: SunBoy
another thing I love about Amber, there is no "Intelligence" or "IQ" or "Reasoning" value, so tactical thinking will fall onto the player.

I agree with you, and your above statement really explains why ADRP is superior to most RPGs out there. Most games can be manipulated by a clever numbers-guy who can find ways to "play the system" rather than play a character. Amber isn't like that. Everyone gets the same number of points to build a character, so everyone gets powers and attributes that balance somewhat. The difference becomes how the PLAYER chooses to run the character -- the choices, actions, strategies. There isn't a "roll to see if you figure out the puzzle" thing, although I'm sure that Erick has mentioned using attributes in a "my character figures out the solution" situation.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

Otha

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • O
  • Posts: 365
Multiple foes
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 06:33:41 AM »
Quote from: SunBoy
...setting dirty corwinesque tricks aside, First Place wins..


The thing is, there are ALWAYS dirty tricks or other situational modifiers to consider, and the book gives you no guidance as to HOW to consider them.  Multiple combatants on one side is only one of those modifiers.
 

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Multiple foes
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 11:18:16 AM »
Quote from: Otha
The thing is, there are ALWAYS dirty tricks or other situational modifiers to consider, and the book gives you no guidance as to HOW to consider them.  

That's the GM's job, not the system's.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

James McMurray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • J
  • Posts: 4790
Multiple foes
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 11:31:58 AM »
You mean it's not a rules system's jobs to have rules?

SunBoy

  • Intellectual Slapstick
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
Multiple foes
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 03:25:54 PM »
Actually, in what you could call a "rules-light" sytem, no, it is not. The system's job is to provide the GM with methods and gudelines on how to deal with different situation. Do you now by heart how much 167+24 equals to? Figures. But I think it would be safe to assume that you could find it out using a simple method.

Quote from: Otha
The thing is, there are ALWAYS dirty tricks or other situational modifiers to consider, and the book gives you no guidance as to HOW to consider them. Multiple combatants on one side is only one of those modifiers.


See above. The real question here is that you find that "rules void" a flaw, while I find it an advantage. Consider the hundreds of books, movies and comics where bad guys ambush good guys: two out of three times, good guys escape, and even win the day. Now consider what happens when the good guys are the ambushers. Four out of five times they suceed, and the conditions are not necessarily different. Amber is a highly evocative game, were WHAT happens is much more important than HOW it happened mechanically.
"Real randomness, I've discovered, is the result of two or more role-players interacting"

Erick Wujcik, 2007