Martial Arts

[Arref]

No its a daft point. You are saying that unless you make martial arts based on strength then strength is a weak stat...  Well if its a weak stat then its a weak stat. Logically tinkering with what falls under each stat to balance out the game is the wrong way to do things.

Ahem.
The game as written puts martial arts under Strength. I'm not tinkering with that.

I think it s probably worth re-reading that fight between Gerard and Corwin as well. I for one get the idea that if Corwin had wanted to kill Gerard he probably could have. But he doesn't want to hurt him therefore he is forced into the situation where he lets the big lug get the better of him.

That's all well and good, but I'm trying to answer the question about martial arts in the game. You're trying to read Corwin's mind in the canon.

You might want to read through this thread:

http://bb.bbboy.net/shadowsofamber-viewthread?forum=2&thread=31&postnum=0

[gabriel_ss4u]

I say 1st place has an auspicious quality that lends to epic tales... and that is the flavor of the Amber series, (to paraphrase my GM).
There fore the rational is to be expected that the 1st place strength can do some legendary type shit.
It's said Amber level is like Shadow Earth's best...
So 100 pts. in Str. is god-awful (relatively of course)
Amber ranked martial arts? Bruce Lee? Steven Segal? Tony Jaa? Jet Li?
If a character IMC obtained 1st place Str. by spending a majority of his pts. on it. / defined his fighting as "Martial Arts/gymnastics/esoteric pressure points / Pluckin' eyes out and all....  I would give him his well deserved/bid for spot.
I see Strength as a rivalry for Warfare... It can lend to 'EPIC" storyline feats and should be given it's due.
Martial Arts makes ya think twice.
And that's what ya should do.

[jibbajibba]

Ahem.
The game as written puts martial arts under Strength. I'm not tinkering with that.


That's all well and good, but I'm trying to answer the question about martial arts in the game. You're trying to read Corwin's mind in the canon.

You might want to read through this thread:

http://bb.bbboy.net/shadowsofamber-viewthread?forum=2&thread=31&postnum=0

Good quote. I like the logic in that but there is a flaw. Benedict is not a featherweight he still has the strength of a top heavy weight boxer or even three of four top heavy weight boxers depending on your interpretation of the Amberverse. We could say becuase its relative strengths it evens out but I am not convinced. We are also saying that Benedict will fight like a boxer and not an Aikido or Chi Na practicioner and that is really where my gripe lies. Benedict has spent centuries studying all forms of combat but for some reason he never thought to look at unarmed combat?

As for the comment on the rules say that martial arts is strength , I know that but it doesn't make it right. The rules say a lot of stuff I don't agree with. The tinkering I refered to was Erick's tinkering in the base game design when he looked to make strength a key stat and toughen it up a bit.
What Erick does is makes a game system that fits the characters in the books. All very valid. In the books Gerard is the strongest guy in Amber (well second strongest after Oberon) he also happens to be an expert at hand to hand combat. There is actually no need to conflate the two things they could be totoally separate. What if there was a character called Sarina who was an expert at martial arts but realtively weak compared to her brothers. supposing there was a scene in which she fought Gerard and paraysed him with a nerve strike...
With 4 stats Amber is easy to handle and quick but it lacks depth and so a character who is crap at fighting but a tactical and strategic genius can not exist, a character who is the greatest unarmed martial artist that ever lived, but is a 7 stone chinese girl unable to bench press more than 100 pounds ... can not exist.
It works becuase we are in an Amber universe and the archetypes are pretty much set, White, european men rule, women are sneaky or pretty and can't men down face to face. But hery it was written in the '70s ...
Personally I think Amber would be better with 6 or 7 stats separating out strength from martial arts and tactics from warfare and lots of other stuff, but it would loose the flavour so I play as is written (well mostly) but tweak circumstances where certain stats are used.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Argeed, we could give the "but what if's" all day,
It really comes down to those case by case scenarios...
BUT, I would allow, Chun-Li, but I would explain to her that strength is the attribute she would want to focus on, with a heavy dose of warfare if that were the character she/he wanted to play.

Each GM has to tailor the system for themselves and their game.
So understanding what the character wants to be is important to help them fit it into the campaign.
Strength as martial arts works for me, relative to the bidding of course.

Pressure points would work on Benedict, provided the rest of the details fit,
ie:  comparative warfare to get-in on said weapons master, and the 'strength' to make the blow count, (being pressure point or not).
These are MYTHIC characters after all....
and no... Benedict is NOT a light weight in HtH, I agree totally.
Someone would have to bid over his  # in Strength, then be highly ranked (with a high # to help) in Warfare, then perhaps they can get in and do something with their martial HtH prowess, but there is those centuries of knowledge and experience Benedict has as well, so whatever a PC tries, may be doomed to premature failure.... it's all up to your story.
Then it comes to how you treat generations and ranks within them...

Regardless of said category MA falls into, I still think most of you guys would be awesome to game with...
:hatsoff:

[Croaker]

It works becuase we are in an Amber universe and the archetypes are pretty much set, White, european men rule

IIRC, Zelazny never described the skin color of at least most amberites.

For all we know, oberon could have been anything but white. And even if he was, I can't see the man as limiting himself to white women.
So, for all we know, gerard could very well be asian, caine arabic, and benedict a black man.

Just to add my grain of salt

[Otha]

With 4 stats Amber is easy to handle and quick but it lacks depth and so a character who is crap at fighting but a tactical and strategic genius can not exist, a character who is the greatest unarmed martial artist that ever lived, but is a 7 stone chinese girl unable to bench press more than 100 pounds ... can not exist.
It works becuase we are in an Amber universe and the archetypes are pretty much set, White, european men rule, women are sneaky or pretty and can't men down face to face. But hery it was written in the '70s ...
Personally I think Amber would be better with 6 or 7 stats separating out strength from martial arts and tactics from warfare and lots of other stuff, but it would loose the flavour so I play as is written (well mostly) but tweak circumstances where certain stats are used.

How about this...

Let the players decide what the most important stats are going to be.  That allows the Gamemaster to tailor the game to feature the kind of action the PC's want.  Make a shopping list, with attributes and powers on the list alongside everything else.

If it turns out that people want to "bid" it Pattern then that becomes a stat, otherwise you just have basic pattern and noone gets any advanced stuff.  Likewise trump, shapeshift, sorcery, and anything else you want to throw in.

[jibbajibba]

IIRC, Zelazny never described the skin color of at least most amberites.

For all we know, oberon could have been anything but white. And even if he was, I can't see the man as limiting himself to white women.
So, for all we know, gerard could very well be asian, caine arabic, and benedict a black man.

Just to add my grain of salt

Actually, after I wrote that I had exactly the same idea myself :-) Of course where they had the same mother you would expect them to be the same race.. so Gerard and Cain as full siblings could both be Arabic or both be Asian ( vague term of course as Arabic people can be Asian ) but couldn't be one of each.

[jibbajibba]

How about this...

Let the players decide what the most important stats are going to be.  That allows the Gamemaster to tailor the game to feature the kind of action the PC's want.  Make a shopping list, with attributes and powers on the list alongside everything else.

If it turns out that people want to "bid" it Pattern then that becomes a stat, otherwise you just have basic pattern and noone gets any advanced stuff.  Likewise trump, shapeshift, sorcery, and anything else you want to throw in.

I think this is an excellent idea. Give the players some idea of the sort of stuff they could use as stats and then ask them to divide some key game play mechanics into the selected stats and have an auction.

In my last game I added Political Influence and Sucession as Stats which was very interesting. In fact the highest spend in any stat ended up being in Politics.

I bet strength would still come up as a stat but I bet very few people would stick hand to hand combat in there. In fact I bet they would ask to have that as a skill....

[gabriel_ss4u]

But if they choose it as a skill, then how will HtH competition be judged?

3rd base!

[jibbajibba]

But if they choose it as a skill, then how will HtH competition be judged?

3rd base!

No all the players need to decide that its a skill then they can spend points in it. Auction if that fits the game or just a straight spend with some idea of what is high mid low. Then the standard Amber mechanics kick in.

So long as everyone agrees as to how to resolve issues then it would work.

I quite like making the powers auctionable too...

[Norbert G. Matausch]

How about this...
Let the players decide what the most important stats are going to be.  That allows the Gamemaster to tailor the game to feature the kind of action the PC's want.

Exactly what I've been doing from the beginning. I've been an active fullcontact martial artist for 20+ years (including no-holds-barred fighting), and all I do is, I ask my players to visualize their character fighting. Is he a brawler? A boxer? A grappler? Or does he mix styles? After they have a clear picture, I ask them if it's Warfare or Strength. Works wonderfully.

[Croaker]

Something just occured to me.

Some people seem disturbed by the possibility of hand to hand being dependant on strength.
I just wanted to point out that there are an awful lot of RPGs out there where one can be supremely skilled at a weapon, and utterly useless in a HtH fighting, without this disturbing us. Why would this be so different in Amber?

[Otha]

Good point.

Monk vs. Fighter, for Roger's sake.

[gabriel_ss4u]

I followed Wujcik's referral to re-read the chapter of the HtH between Gerard & Corwin.

Within this, I noticed that the game description of HtH (having to do w/speed, & strategy) was definately on the side of Corwin (with his superior Warfare), but the punch absorbing, grappling, (hands on), and knock-out blow went to Gerard w/superior Str.

I totally understand the way it is used in the game, and even agree with it's usage.
But IMC I like the balancing of major attack powers within the Attributes.
When I place Martial Arts in Str. it makes the warfare master more wary, and I like it that way. But, the old adage of bringing a knife to a gun fight isn't lost on it either.
It is all dependent on case by case situation in all campaigns.
Because the comparative level between the 2 combatants will always vary within their multiple levels of attributes, and 4 attributes is enough to make it diverse for all players.

[Otha]

When you come right down to it, there really are NINE stats in the basic game.

You have your four attributes, plus Pattern, Shapeshift/Logrus, Trump, Sorcery/Conjuration/PowerWords, and "Other goodies" which includes items, creatures, and shadows.  The only difference with the non-attribute stats, is that the "ladder" is already established.