Martial Arts

[gabriel_ss4u]

This is an awesome thread....

I love the points made by most people here...
Check this out...

I believe warfare is weapons/strategy
Strength is physical ability/HTH fighting prowess.

Benedict is not just a great weapons master.... he's the best.
(Ok, there may be others in your campaign... but you know what I'm saying)
Martial arts comes to the physical contact, (strikes, blows), not necessarily grappling contact.
Say Benedict is able to strategically use foot-work, movement, timing, and speed to strike an opponent (HTH) more times than the Strength master due to his strategic mastery of overall combat. It would come to that physical blow by the martial artist having his superior damage effect. His Str. may absorb some of Benedict's blows, enough for him to land that K.O. If Benedict had a weapon, vs. Gerard... say, I would give Gerard an ample chance due to circumstance and action-description to even out the playing field, since part of Martial arts is the ability to disarm foes too, I don't want to say it would come down to 1 player describing better than the other player, his moves, but it certainly has something to do with it.
Either way, either one is looking at serious injury, perhaps both.
Say, Benedict had any weapon, smarts would say use it as a projectile, (but there goes your weapon), if he chooses to keep it in hand, and Gerard could close enough to get in a blow... it's up in the air I would think.
The Martial Artist could use his pressure point, lethal strike, what have you, and it may be more damaging (like a weapon) than an actual weapon in the martial artist's hand.

Warfare having strategy on it's side surely tips the scales in the warfare master's court... so it may come down to those 2ndary Attributes...
Endurance & how close or far is each other's Str/Warfare, from the other...

I think it balances the competition between player, otherwise it would be a serious struggle in bids for only Psyche or Warfare, Strength would be comparably lowered to Endurance in my opinion then, and I think it should be more comparable to the other 2, Psyche & Warfare.

No doubt it takes a good group/GM to emphasize this in game play, otherwise 1st ranked in warfare would not really ever worry about 1st rank in Strength.

[Otha]

Here's the explanation of strength vs. warfare I'm using in the LARP-y rules:

"Warfare" is at arm's length; close enough to touch but not close enough to hug.  

"Strength" is when you're close enough to hug, whether you're actually grappling or not.  

I extended psyche to cover long-distance confrontations: mind assaults through trump, missile weapons (which is why Brand chose a crossbow for his ambush of Corwin), and magical attacks.

[gabriel_ss4u]

so then I suppose kicks, a mainstay weapon tactic for a MA, is then useless?

doesn't make sense.
(personally I've been in martial arts for over 20 yrs, and I can bring some understanding to the combat, as stated, strikes would fall under strength, HTH strikes), and you can strike with your foot, which is far outside of "hug range".

But  obviously, do what feels best for your game.
sooo... did you have a comment on what I wrote Otha... or just restating your idea from earlier?
or am I confused.... are you speaking of your LARP Amber game? or the drpg Phage version?

[Erick Wujcik]

Unarmed Martial Arts, one of the few real stumbling points in the Amber mechanics.  Is it Strength, or is it Warfare?

Lots of interesting discussion here, but I'd recommend going back and reading the source of it all, the fight between Corwin and Gerard, depicted in Sign of the Unicorn, pages 296 to 299 (pages refer to the Great Book of Amber edition).

As Gerard says, "It has been a long time, and you might have forgotten."

What we see, there and elsewhere, is that those of Amber are well versed in Martial Arts, unarmed and otherwise.

Erick

[Otha]

so then I suppose kicks, a mainstay weapon tactic for a MA, is then useless?

doesn't make sense.
(personally I've been in martial arts for over 20 yrs, and I can bring some understanding to the combat, as stated, strikes would fall under strength, HTH strikes), and you can strike with your foot, which is far outside of "hug range".

I'm not really interested so much in realism as I am in making a clear distinction that players can figure out without having to call in a gamemaster.  A kick or a punch would be warfare.  A judo throw would be strength.  Is that reasonable?  Probably not, but my game can't afford to slow things down with that kind of nitpicking.

But  obviously, do what feels best for your game.
sooo... did you have a comment on what I wrote Otha... or just restating your idea from earlier?
or am I confused.... are you speaking of your LARP Amber game? or the drpg Phage version?

I'm kind of talking about both.  I'm talking about finding a way to play Amber (by the Phage rules or by my own) that is as transparent as possible to the players.  I don't want to be keeping secrets from them about how I figure out who wins a conflict.

Most games have a very straightforward, mechanical means by which winners and losers are chosen.  Amber is rather unique in that it doesn't.

I found this ideal very difficult to realize given the standard rules, which is one of the reasons I put together my LARP-y version.

[Croaker]

Well, I've simply mixed things.

Combat with ranged weapons is pure warfare conflict.
Combat with hand to hand weapons is warfare with some strength, as the martial arts prowess and physical power of strength helps a little.
Combat without weapons is Strength with some warfare, as the speed and reflexes from Warfare helps.
Grappling is pure Strength.

[Trevelyan]

Lots of interesting discussion here, but I'd recommend going back and reading the source of it all, the fight between Corwin and Gerard, depicted in Sign of the Unicorn, pages 296 to 299 (pages refer to the Great Book of Amber edition).

As Gerard says, "It has been a long time, and you might have forgotten."

More to the point, Gerard comments that Corwin is only safe until Gerard can lay his hands on him.

The example fight between PCs in the ADRPG, where two female characters are laying into one another, one with the assistance of some strange energy source, also demonstrates the same philosophy, and seeing as Erick wrote it this seems a good guide to the canon approach.

In that fight, one character has superior Warfare, the other (with magical assistance) has Greater strength. At the start of the fight, the Warfare character maintains distance and uses her Warfare to land some solid hits without being caught. She clearly has the upper hand. But this advantage only holds good until the Strength charcter is able to get within arm's reach (using the magical support to absorb the blows and keep going) and turn a Warfare contest into a direct Strength wrestling contest.

I'd agree with Pundit that Warefare covers the ability to land a punch or kick, but Strength applies once you get into wrestling, sumo and other, similar styles.

Of course, from a practical point of view, Strength, Endurance and Warfare all play a role.

[jibbajibba]

Haven't any of you guys ever been in a fight ?

I was at a judo club once and I was drawn against this big bugger, must have been 17 stone compared to my 12. I had seen him fight and the guy just picked up a bloke that was 14 stone (oh a stone is 14 pounds or about 6 kilos for you non-Brits) and threw him to the ground. Not a lot of technique but an awful lot of brawn. So for our 3 minute fight I never let him get his hand on me. I parried his blows and danced away like a girl. The bout was draw, but had I been allowed to kick or punch him he would have gone down.
I am no Benedict...

Anyone that doubts this needs to watch one of those 8 stone Chi Na guys knock out a 15 stone kick boxer by tapping him on the side of the head.

With the limited stats at our disposal... (Napoleon great strategist, crap in a knife fight) we have to say that once a combat moved to a grapple the Strength man holds sway but other than that its Warfare all the way.

And rightly noted this is the most troublesome thing in the game and only really exists because Zelazny explicitly says Gerard was the strongest thus defining strength as a stat that Erick in turn has to rank in his auction and then from a gameplay perspective has to expand to make it not suck too badly.. and it still sucks pretty badly.

[gabriel_ss4u]

I'm not really interested so much in realism as I am in making a clear distinction that players can figure out without having to call in a gamemaster.  A kick or a punch would be warfare.  A judo throw would be strength.  Is that reasonable?  Probably not, but my game can't afford to slow things down with that kind of nitpicking.

I agree than kicks & punches fall under warfare for execution; (speed, timing, accuracy) but there has to be some consideration given to the blow itself.
A #1 ranked strength can be very formidable without actually 'grabbing' someone. The strike itself, provided it lands, can do massive damage.
Martial Arts is the subject, and a martial strike is a deadly offense to such a highly ranked individual.

Otha, you may not be interested in realism, but it is a factor in this.
Why did RZ write the fencing duels in such detailed realism? because it lends to the fabric of flavor for the story, just as any GM should have at least a basic working knowledge of many faucets of combat for their campaign.

A game does not have to be slowed down if 'realism' is included, what slows a game down more likely is if these things aren't hashed out before hand... which again is up to individual GM's for their campaign.
GM's
...not players.

So ultimately it benefits a game if the players understand that contention w/ the GM for game mechanics should be at a minimum unless it really matters, 'cause it will break the flow of the story/game.

And this is DEFINITELY a subject worth discussing, and should, for every GM, be figured out before hand.
I think we are in agreement there.

[Otha]

You see, that's the point.  For a LARP, where the presence of a GM can't be guaranteed, the players MUST have a way of resolving contests between themselves that doesn't need a GM's intervention.

The players can be as florid, realistic, or whatever in their descriptions as they like; when it comes to figuring out "who wins" they need a method with no ambiguities.

[Arref]

And rightly noted this is the most troublesome thing in the game and only really exists because Zelazny explicitly says Gerard was the strongest thus defining strength as a stat that Erick in turn has to rank in his auction and then from a gameplay perspective has to expand to make it not suck too badly.. and it still sucks pretty badly.

I suggest that this view of Strength caters to the Warfare bias which causes the problems with running Strength in the game.

Zelazny does more than 'tell' the importance of Strength. He shows.

Gerard reminds Corwin of how he has dealt with his older brother before. Corwin, one of the best blades in Amber, is wary of the Strength guy. And... we get an entire scene where Gerard kicks Corwin's ass.

Any idea that you need Warfare to make Psyche or Strength work (when accuracy, speed, etc depend on Warfare) undercuts the balance of Attributes. Strength doesn't suck until GMs insist on Warfare bias. Strength must include all expertise to make Strength an important Attribute.

Imagine the example:

Fiona misses you with the spell because her Warfare is less than yours.

This approach cripples the game.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Good point Arref

[jibbajibba]

Good point Arref

No its a daft point. You are saying that unless you make martial arts based on strength then strength is a weak stat...  Well if its a weak stat then its a weak stat. Logically tinkering with what falls under each stat to balance out the game is the wrong way to do things.
Imagine we added the Stat Dexterity and decided that accuracy with missile weapons and the like would fall under dexterity woudl that mean we needed to add more to Warfare as it has lost some of its potency?

One of the issues and the joys of Amber its is bizaare choice of stats. Warfare in most games would include about 3 stats and a dozen or more skills. In Amber we just have Warfare. Apparently someone ranked 1 in warfare can not even be shot by a hidden assasin with a high powered rifle, becuase they would never put themselves in a position where a sniper woudl be able to pick them off... apparently.

I do think that wounds from a high strength guy hurt more than wounds from a low strength guy, but the weakest guy in Amber can heft 400 pounds so he is probably able to hit a fair bit harder than Arnie in the Conan movies... You could use strength as a way to bypass armour I guess that would make sense. I like the idea that strength also relates to how much damage you take from blows and I think its here that you can sell it as a stat.

I think it s probably worth re-reading that fight between Gerard and Corwin as well. I for one get the idea that if Corwin had wanted to kill Gerard he probably could have. But he doesn't want to hurt him therefore he is forced into the situation where he lets the big lug get the better of him.

[Otha]

I agree with Arref. If one stat becomes too powerful, then the players are more likely to bid in it, and they all start to look a little more the same.

I like the rock-paper-scissors aspect.

[Uncle Twitchy]

I've seen all too many Attribute Auctions swing towards Psyche and Warfare, with Strength and Endurance going for a pittance of points.

Then again, I've also seen Strength go for as many points as Warfare, too. So it just depends on the players and their playing styles, I suppose.