Ancient Greece is fun, but I like dice

[languagegeek]

So I'm not still on the fence, not sure what to think about Lords of Olympus (never having played Amber). I really like what I've seen in this product: the premise sounds fun, the setting is classic, the prodution is professional, I'm a regular shopper at Precis Intermedia, I like theRPGSite...

I'd like to ask those who have always felt that dice rolling is an integral part of RPGing: how tough is the transition away from dice? Maybe this is better asked in terms of Amber: did you feel like you were losing something putting the dice away?

I'm almost sure to buy LoO anyway but I'd like to hear if you felt that removing the dice took something away from RPGing?

[finarvyn]

I'd like to hear if you felt that removing the dice took something away from RPGing?

In the hands of a good GM and some good players, diceless can be a lot of fun. The system is set up in such a way that you can't really "min/max" the rules.

I'm surprised that you post on an Amber Diceless board but haven't tried diceless gaming yet!

[Spinachcat]

If you love to RPG in Ancient Greece, definitely check out Mazes & Minotaurs if you haven't already (it uses dice)

http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

I am interested in how much info on the relationship of the gods is in LoO. Perhaps LoO would be a great resource.

[languagegeek]

Oh yeah, I'm a fan of Mazes and Minotaurs.

I guess my question boils down to... Without dice does the game lose the kind of drama that the possibility of a critical hit or fumble can produce? Would a player tend to perform their best actions as something they are less skilled at doesn't have a chance without the benefit of a lucky roll.

And I thought to post here because a) it is the official LoO forum, b) I would like to hear from people who like and have actually played Amber instead of someone's strong opinion from reading it years ago.

Anyway, I guess the best thing to do is buy it and see what I think.

[Panjumanju]

I guess my question boils down to... Without dice does the game lose the kind of drama that the possibility of a critical hit or fumble can produce? Would a player tend to perform their best actions as something they are less skilled at doesn't have a chance without the benefit of a lucky roll.

Yes and no. Amber produces a different kind of drama, and a different kind of excitement based on both long-term strategy and panicked creative thinking. Since you cannot just rest on the laurels of luck, you have to think whatever it is you're doing through thoroughly and be pretty darn clever about it. This produces, I think, a more rewarding sensation when you are successful even though the numbers were against you. The surprise (like the getting a 20 and being successful although you're terrible at something kind of surprise, or a 1 for something of which you're supposed to be an expert) still happens, but it happens because of information you didn't know when you acted in what seemed wisely at the time. All in all it works out very well, it's just a different experience.

As Erick Wujcik says, to paraphrase, you have to remember that you're already making diceless decisions in RPGs all the time. This is just a system of carrying that through consistently.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

I've had some players who were ok with the idea of diceless from the get go; in some cases because they were willing to try something different; and in a few cases because they always felt that they had awful luck with dice. The guy who "won" the last Amber campaign I ran (in the sense of being king at the end of it) is one of my long term players who was just overjoyed at playing a diceless game because he felt that the dice constantly betrayed him in every other game he plays in.

On the other hand, I've also had players who started out very apprehensive about the idea of playing a game without using dice. In most cases, this went away within 1-2 sessions; the thing is, its not just the dice that go away when you play this kind of Diceless RPG; its the whole notion of mechanics.  If you are running the game right (be it Amber, or I hope Lords of Olympus), players very quickly get used to not just not using dice, but in quickly ceasing to think about their abilities in terms of numbers; their "character sheet" instead becomes the general idea they retain in their head of how strong, agile, resistant and mentally powerful their character is (as well as how lucky), and what powers they have, and then sheets of notes about the intricate details of what's going on in the game and the web of alliances or oppositions their character is entangled in.

And once they stop thinking about dice, they start instead to think about "what will my character do?"
Very rarely in the game will they just say "I hit him", unless they're talking about a totally inferior opponent.  Instead, they'll quickly figure out they have to describe HOW they plan to hit him, and where, and with what degree of ferocity or caution, and which of their resources they plan to hit him with; and these become the variables of the task resolution, instead of the roll of a die and the adding of a modifier.  

So in that sense, I think, getting rid of the dice very much enhances the sense of drama, rather than diminishing it.

RPGPundit

[languagegeek]

Thank-you for the replies. I'm open to new experiences so I'll give it a go. To broadly respond:

because he felt that the dice constantly betrayed him in every other game he plays in.

Yep, I know that guy. He gets quite annoyed when after having thought up an interesting plan or technique, and rolls wrong.

As Erick Wujcik says, to paraphrase, you have to remember that you're already making diceless decisions in RPGs all the time. This is just a system of carrying that through consistently.

I recall some 3-4 hour sessions where no dice were rolled, well, except when there was a feeling that, well, we gotta roll for something so... roll for persuasion...

Since you cannot just rest on the laurels of luck, you have to think whatever it is you're doing through thoroughly and be pretty darn clever about it. This produces, I think, a more rewarding sensation when you are successful even though the numbers were against you.

I'm sure there's some neurological thing going on here. A good dice roll, one would imagine, releases the same brain chemicals as casino games. Perhaps a diceless RPG is more akin to having trouble with an exam question and blowing it or getting a flash of insight and succeeding.

Again, thanks for the answers, you've earned a sale!

[beeber]

how does resolution work in a diceless system?  rock paper scissors?  cards?  what keeps it from being "magical tea party?"  honest question, never played any such thing before.

[Roland St. Jude]

how does resolution work in a diceless system?  rock paper scissors?  cards?  what keeps it from being "magical tea party?"  honest question, never played any such thing before.

The resolution mechanic is reason. Characters have characteristics, equipment, experiences, and an immediate approach, and those are considered along with the realities of the task they attempt.  Success or failure is judged by the GM by taking into account both these things along with whatever else is relevant.

If by "magical tea party" you mean everyone just does what they want, well, Amberites can pretty much do just that up until the point where some real threat/obstacle/etc. stands in their way, then they need a combination of ability, cleverness, and conditions to make things fall their way. Lots of attempted actions in Amber fail or partially succeed or result in unexpected outcomes. Characters then have to change their approach,  enlist aid, find a way around, deal with what they've done, etc.

[RPGPundit]

how does resolution work in a diceless system?  rock paper scissors?  cards?  what keeps it from being "magical tea party?"  honest question, never played any such thing before.

Think of a game of chess; there's nothing random there. You have pieces, different pieces can do different things. You position them to try to give you tactical advantage.

Its the same in Lords of Olympus: you have four attributes, plus a "luck" attribute; then you have powers, and more ephemeral things like items, servants, or other resources. In conflicts, you try to position those things in such a way that you'll be at the advantage and your opponent disadvantaged.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

Again, thanks for the answers, you've earned a sale!

That's good to hear, I don't think you'll be disappointed!

RPGPundit