Is Sci-fi "bad" for Amber?

[RPGPundit]

Over on rpg.net there's a big Amber thread going on right now (wish someone would go over there and invite some of those guys to come here to the OFFICIAL amber board!), where at least a few posters are arguing that since neither the Corwin nor the Merlin saga features much "sci-fi" style shadows or setting elements, adding this into a game makes it emulate Amber less.

Do you think that's true? Does it affect the game negatively if your players go to shadows full of starships and light sabres?

I think this is only a product of who the narrators of the story are. The Merlin saga has more sci-fi stuff than the Corwin saga (still not a lot, but more), because Merlin is a more sci-fi kind of guy than Corwin.
And I'm sure that if Zelazny had written a story with Martin as the protagonist, it'd be full of Cyberpunk stuff.

RPGPundit

[weilide]

I think your examples are spot-on. On the whole, I would say sci-fi in Amber works best in small doses. After all, both Amber and the Courts are relatively low-tech and they tend to be the two poles of most campaigns, and obviously our Shadow Earth is not a sci-fi setting. Still, Zelazny was by no means afraid of sci-fi, having probably written at least as much in that genre as he did in fantasy (see his Lord of Light for a nice fantasy / sci-fi hybrid). I am inclined to follow his lead and mostly keep to sci-fi for flourishes here and there.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Do you think that's true? Does it affect the game negatively if your players go to shadows full of starships and light sabres?

I think this is only a product of who the narrators of the story are. The Merlin saga has more sci-fi stuff than the Corwin saga (still not a lot, but more), because Merlin is a more sci-fi kind of guy than Corwin.
And I'm sure that if Zelazny had written a story with Martin as the protagonist, it'd be full of Cyberpunk stuff.

RPGPundit

No, not true at all.
Why would it, there is anything possible in the Amber multiverse, the only hindrance would be the character not knowing how to used advanced technology as they may not have had time to learn or adapt the skill.
(but that's just part of the story and an obstacle to overcome)
And yes, I agree that had a story featured Martin, it would have had sci-fi us the yin-yang. RZ was certainly capable of it.

If these gamers know that ANYTHING is possible in ADRPG, then they should know it is the perfect platform for them to invent any sci-fi realm the wish.

[Croaker]

Inherently, sci-fi is not bad for amber, it's just part of it.

What these guys mean, I think, is that both Amber and the Courts are mostly medieval-like, and that having computers and all in them would change them utterly from what we know, and create a very different feeling, one that could be argued to be not "amber-canon".

Problem is, shadow travel disrupts high tech just as it does magic, so it would be difficult to use these. On the other hand, C&A are just the thing for you, since what they look like is just a special effect: Following on Erick's Cyber Martin, I had random's son equiped with all sorts of pattern-based implants and computers

[RPGPundit]

Well, the setting is defended from that kind of thing, by the fact that high-tech doesn't seem to work in Amber itself at all, and in chaos magic seems to be the high-tech.
So yes, what WOULD be against "canon" would be if people could use supercomputers in Amber.  But not going into shadows where you can travel in starships and pilot giant robots all you like.

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

Exactly. I had a game in which a player battled against his nemesis in a high-tech shadow with battlesuits, gauss rifles and all. Great fun

[gabriel_ss4u]

Then again... all things may 'evolve', even those in Amber.
Canon is canon... but a creative GM will always push the boundaries.

I'm all for keeping Amber like Amber, but there are some things I change.
Trumps locked in a case in the Library for one.
And dorm sized rooms for gods.... well, that one went in most of my campaigns too.
But I always keep the 'feel' of Amber.

[weilide]

This is drifting a bit off topic but I actually really like the dorm-sized rooms for gods. You get a much clearer sense what stuff the characters really care about when they have limited space and need to prioritize. (Brand's rug, for example). The common bathrooms are kind of a drag, though...

[RPGPundit]

I think its noteworthy that apparently, in Erick's own campaign, he had a lot of superhero elements.

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

Oh? How? That's great!
I always hoped a PC would bring me a character with such a background, and aven toyed with the idea of a super-villain invasion (although, of course, their powers wouldn't work very well, but I'd build them like C&A)

[Lawbag]

I always viewed the sci-fi tech stuff on par with Michael Moorcock's Hawkmoon and Elric fantasy series, where magic and technology often blended together.

[iadagon]

IMCC one of the PC's is a "Golden Age" superhero.We use Power Words and Sorcery to give him "Super Powers".
It's working out pretty well.

[gabriel_ss4u]

or Piers Anthony, another blender of Sci-Fi and Fantasy in the same story-lines.

Remember... this is Amber, where anything is possible in Shadow.
The mind reels.

[Lady Vivamus]

To me, Amber is more sci-fi than fantasy because of the way Zelazny wrote. Corwin was a pragmatic hero in a world where definable rules had predictable results-- the Pattern and Shadow-walking and Trump communications, while fantasy-esque on the surface, feel like sci-fi elements when you examine things closely. I actually contest the statement on the other thread that Merlin's is more sci-fi; what with all his sorcery and playing with sentient powers and things, that half has more of the feel of fantasy. Either way, I think this is the point the person over there tried to make: "fantasy" and "sci-fi" are labels that publishers use to tell the reader what is in a book so they will buy it, not something a writer has to clearly decide between... and to a nerd like me who thinks about these things, Zelazny was very clearly a genre-bending writer.

But that's all academic. Does it change the way you play the game? I don't know. I know that with my image of Corwin's Amber as an essentially sci-fi universe based on technologies we don't understand (who here can recite Clarke's Law?), my game will be different from someone who sees it as straight fantasy. Not entirely sure how... and not saying my way is right.

An interesting discussion; I wish the people over on that other thread had not devolved into slinging insults, that it might have remained interesting longer.

[weilide]

An interesting discussion; I wish the people over on that other thread had not devolved into slinging insults, that it might have remained interesting longer.

Well, you would say that…you JERK! Just kidding…

I think you raise an interesting point. One of the curious things about both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, to my mind, is that for many of the pulpier examples, at least, is that they represent a conflation of existential conventions (we accept the existence of faster-than-light travel, etc) and genre conventions (E.g., we accept behavior in a romantic comedy that would likely get the perpetrator thrown in jail in real life, etc) such we tend to think of sci-fi / fantasy as a genre when it's really a collection of works grouped by subject spanning many genres (as an example, the key contrast between Asimov's Foundation books and Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series is that the latter are are comedic stories set within a substantially similar universe). In any case, based on my understanding, Zelazny saw sci-fi and fantasy as fundamentally similar, based on the possibilities inherent in both to described epic, godlike characters. I am very, very hard-pressed to think of ways in which play would be fundamentally different in a sci-fi versus fantasy milieu but I am open to suggestions…