Is Corwin The Bad Guy

RPGPundit · October 03, 2009, 04:28:48 PM

Over on RPG.net there's a debate thread going on in this topic: do you think that Corwin is really the "bad guy" for most of the first series of novels? Is he worse than most of his family?

RPGPundit

scottishstorm · October 03, 2009, 05:29:49 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;336206Over on RPG.net there's a debate thread going on in this topic: do you think that Corwin is really the "bad guy" for most of the first series of novels? Is he worse than most of his family?

Corwin is certainly an x-factor into the mechanizations already in play. We discover that Eric is certainly not The Villain that Corwin imagines him to be. And, yes, from the point of view of Eric's own motivations, Corwin can surely be considered The Bad Guy.

On the other hand, I don't think the series deals well with absolutes. One can make compelling arguments on Brand not being The Villain, for instance. The explanations in the Merlin series aside, we can look upon Brand as legitimately being wronged and acting upon insight he may actually believe to be for everyone's best interest.

Something I've always felt compelling about Amber are the shades of grey. I don't think Good and Bad exist as absolutes here. In a very real sense, perception dictates reality for these characters. Not only are we (the readers) subjected to the individual characters' beliefs which motivate their behaviour, but these characters also have power (even on the subconscious level) of making these beliefs very real, thus changing the equation.

weilide · October 04, 2009, 09:35:54 PM

I guess it depends what is meant by "bad guy." In terms of conventional morality, post-amnesia Corwin seems to be a somewhat more compassionate fellow than his pre-amnesia self was. On the other hand, he represents a major destabilizing factor in insisting on attacking Amber at the same time the forces of chaos do.

RPGPundit · October 05, 2009, 12:19:50 AM

The question is really how far do you want to go in being highly cynical about Corwin's telling of events.

RPGPundit

Ivanhoe · October 05, 2009, 05:40:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit;336429The question is really how far do you want to go in being highly cynical about Corwin's telling of events.

In my game, Merlin told Corwin's version to Zelazny in order to get it wrapped as a nice tale. It is recognized in Amber as "Corwin's version of the event". My players who read the series had their character read the books. Every elder is aware that this is biased toward Corwin, but consider it as an interesting retelling of the events. Eric's son calls it downright lies. Brandt's son is too busy discovering his father's (trapped) works to comment on something as petty as a rival's pamphlet.

I think it is a good idea to give Zelazny's work an ingame existence, and a wide cross-shadow extent. I ruled that Corwin's series was a commended work from Merlin but that Merlin's series was mostly Zelazny extrapolating on things he understood from discussions with Merlin and fictional in nature.

Corambis · October 06, 2009, 11:51:36 AM

I think Corwin could be defined as "a" bad guy during the early novels, although he was certainly not "the" bad guy. Also, as pointed out already, he seemed somewhat more mellow than his pre-amnesia self. It could be that the badness he displayed during the early novels was just him acting out the way the people around him expected him to act, before coming to a realization that he was a slightly different person now.

Drascus · October 08, 2009, 02:32:45 AM

My personal feeling is that Corwin is not a good person, but none of the Amberites are.

What is notable about Corwin is that he used to be a really, really dreadful person. Now if he actually reformed, or if he was telling Merlin a whitewashed version of events is unknown.

But I think he was Oberon's favorite because he was such a deeply, deeply bad man. Because Oberon is a pretty horrible guy. I think he saw stuff in his son that reminded him of himself, and that he never legitimized Eric because he saw Eric's tendency toward coalitions as 'soft'.

It's all conjecture, but when Fiona makes fun of Corwin for showing some small amount of human decency, you have to wonder what he was like before.

Imperator · October 08, 2009, 03:12:09 AM

I don't think there's a Bad Guy in Amber novels.

boulet · October 08, 2009, 10:58:55 AM

Quote from: Imperator;336986I don't think there's a Bad Guy in Amber novels.

This. If Zelazny did something right it's not to follow the retard action movie trope of good guys and bad guys.

Corambis · October 08, 2009, 11:05:10 AM

Quote from: Imperator;336986I don't think there's a Bad Guy in Amber novels.

I think it might be more accurate to say that there isn't a Good Guy in the Amber novels. Generally, everyone works in their own self-interest, and ends up doing some fairly horrible things. Look at Corwin. He didn't really have a problem wandering out to shadow and raising an army there that he knew would all be likely to die, just so he had a chance at the throne. On the other hand, when you're more "real" than just about everything in existence, you might not value the less-real as much.

scottishstorm · October 08, 2009, 11:17:27 AM

Getting back to what what I think is the heart of the topic: Did Corwin lie in his memoirs? In minor ways (either to save face or embellish) I think almost certainly.

However, I think it's interesting to examine the psychology of the Crowin books, specifically the way they were written. Let's put aside the question of truth for the moment. Corwin is self-deprecating. He writes as though showing the reader a glimpse of his soul, IMO and that may be difficult to utterly fake... even for an Amberite.

As a reader, I am comfortable taking the spirit of the Corwin novels to be true (at lest in the sense that Corwin believes them to be). High adventure and shady politicking aside, the story is one of a man reforging his identity. In the process, two legacies come into play (Corwin's Pattern and, of course, his son, Merlin). I believe it does injustice to the genre to take the stance the Corwin Chronicles are deliberately misleading or deceptive.

This may not accurately answer questions of "good" and "bad," however. Quite obviously, Corwin acts upon information he believes is true but isn't. Constantly. This puts him as an antagonistic against other potentially "good" forces, to be sure.

Ivanhoe · October 08, 2009, 11:43:12 AM

Quote from: scottishstorm;337017He writes as though showing the reader a glimpse of his soul, IMO and that may be difficult to utterly fake... even for an Amberite.

Ha. Ha ha ! Hem. Sorry. We are talking about the troubadour of Amber here, the ultimate story-teller. He Who Would Enjoy A Poker Game Against Random.

Some people say that he did not discover alone how to draw a pattern, that this was Brand's knowledge that he stole and then framed him as the bad guy. That he was aware of Merlin's existence and that he was the connexion with the Courts. That he orchestrated Brand's removal from the plan with them. He pretends he refused the throne but says so only because Oberon designed no heir in his final will. No one but him knows what happened between Oberon and him. And who do you think orchestrated the assassination attempt that cost Benedict his arm ? Who really buys that he spent two centuries on Earth with amnesia ? He probably got his amnesia from his assassination attempt but made believe that it last longer to get an alibi. We don't get to know where Oberon was trapped during all this time, but the fact that he came back as Ganelon is suspicious...

Amber is such a good setting to twist it in every possible way. There is plenty of room for Corwin to have distorted reality a lot. I am certainly not saying that Corwin's version is impossible. I am merely opening other possible interpretations

scottishstorm · October 08, 2009, 03:34:25 PM

I buy the amnesia thing for a very simple reason. Corwin would not spend two centuries being ordinary. This is beyond his patience or humility.

Besides, I think it was two centuries in Amber time, and more like 400 years for Corwin, wasn't it? Nope. Wouldn't happen. If Corwin was capable of carrying out THAT deception, he isn't simply evil, he's insane.

boulet · October 08, 2009, 04:39:01 PM

Quote from: scottishstorm;337056I buy the amnesia thing for a very simple reason. Corwin would not spend two centuries being ordinary. This is beyond his patience or humility.

If Corwin lied, and wasn't amnesiac for such a long time, then he would have lied about staying on Earth continuously for two centuries. He could have fetched a double to lure Fiona while he was messing around in shadow. That's a major revision of the canon but it's interesting...

scottishstorm · October 08, 2009, 05:07:46 PM

Quote from: boulet;337063If Corwin lied, and wasn't amnesiac for such a long time, then he would have lied about staying on Earth continuously for two centuries. He could have fetched a double to lure Fiona while he was messing around in shadow. That's a major revision of the canon but it's interesting...

It's interesting, but I don't buy it.

The historical references Corwin makes and memories he describe, while not proving his longtime amnesia and staying on Earth, would default to fabricated deception otherwise. As a reader, I wouldn't enjoy this phony Corwin as much, if at all.

As an aside, a good narrative either has the core of truth or enough clues for the audience to discover the truth, despite being lied to. I enjoyed the movie The Usual Suspects, but felt cheated because these elements weren't there (well, the latter was, but too subtle for me to pick up with the first viewing).