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Author Topic: Amber variants: what makes diceless work  (Read 3512 times)

jhkim

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Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« on: November 07, 2023, 01:35:59 PM »
I just got back from AmberCon Northwest, where a lot of people were running Amber-style diceless games in different settings (partial Amber or non-Amber), and I was curious about what variants people run -- and especially what makes a variant setting work.

I think a key part of the Amber setting is that PCs have a lot of power and freedom because of their universe-shifting and other abilities. I think if one had a typical D&D party, say, that diceless would feel more limiting. On the other hand, I'm not sure that traditional superheroes would work as well with Amber either. So there are other elements that make things work.

I have some of my own ideas, but I'm curious to hear if others have ideas.

zircher

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2023, 12:56:11 PM »
Well, being a demi-god has its perks in Amber, you can literally toy with any human.  When you're not at the top of the power scale (or at least think you're near the top), every decision/action becomes more risky.  A human rank swordsman in a D&D setting would not have the same bravado as an Amberite.  But, you might be able to re-scale that for a heroic setting.

I have not tried supers, but I could see that working for golden and silver age supers which tended to be more over the top.  It might work for a game of sorcerers ala Magicians where almost everyone else were mundanes.  [Put a pin on that, that could be a fun game for the future.]

What I think makes Amber Diceless work as a system is attitude and power scale.  Could you do a wushu game with it?  Sure.  LA Noir or street level supers?  Not so sure.
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jhkim

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2023, 02:23:40 AM »
Well, being a demi-god has its perks in Amber, you can literally toy with any human.  When you're not at the top of the power scale (or at least think you're near the top), every decision/action becomes more risky.  A human rank swordsman in a D&D setting would not have the same bravado as an Amberite.  But, you might be able to re-scale that for a heroic setting.

I have not tried supers, but I could see that working for golden and silver age supers which tended to be more over the top.  It might work for a game of sorcerers ala Magicians where almost everyone else were mundanes.  [Put a pin on that, that could be a fun game for the future.]

What I think makes Amber Diceless work as a system is attitude and power scale.  Could you do a wushu game with it?  Sure.  LA Noir or street level supers?  Not so sure.

Thanks. I don't think it's the absolute of power, but more how powerful the PCs are within the scope of the game.

I just ran an Amber variant about relatively low-power psychics at AmberCon Northwest, based on the novel The Bone Orchard. I think it has to do with the feel of chance. Under the Amber Diceless approach, the characters feel like they are the masters of their domain. They aren't tossed around by the winds of Fate. They choose their destiny - good or bad. In my game, psychics were rare, and the emphasis was on the PCs choices.

I could see a street-level supers game, as long as the street-level heroes felt like they were powerful and knowledgeable about the streets. ("I am the night.") A hero might have his hideout as the parallel to a personal Shadow, and street smarts about how to find stuff in the alleys and back streets is like Pattern.

I don't think it would work as well for newbie superheroes who felt they were in over their heads, for a feel of crazy stuff coming out of nowhere.

zircher

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2023, 12:01:00 PM »
I like that Player Choice/Agents of Fate angle.
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Wrath of God

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2023, 07:13:35 PM »
I'mvery disliking Diceless nature of Amber, but I'd totally play Amber variants with some more rolling - but by Amber variants I understand serious reskins.

Like every time you have multiverse, and this one island of Order against sea of Chaos, but nature of Amber equivalent can change utterly - therefore changing also close surrounding of shadows that are under close influence. Maybe forces of Order are like cyberpunk corporation, maybe like Greek (yeah like LOO) gods, or Chinese Celestial buerocracy, and so on, and so on - different variants though maintaining general gist of relations between Order, Chaos and all between.
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zircher

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2023, 10:23:13 PM »
Heh, that gives me an very Elric / Eternal Champions vibe.
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jibbajibba

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2023, 10:45:54 AM »
I don't agree that it's the power scale. I have played Amber reakinned with all sorts of stuff. supers, Fables, Star Wars, Pirates.
The key is to pick games where there is antagonistic relationship between players.
So Pirates was based on Black Sails. We had Stats of Leadership, Combat, Prowess, Guile. We had no powers but did have some core skills, l - Seamanship, Statecraft and a bunch of resource heavy options with allies, followers ships, political contacts etc .

I think any game in which the players want their characters to be the best at a list of things and in fact hich there is plot intrigue and deceit is perfect.
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finarvyn

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2023, 07:42:18 AM »
I think that the appropriate word is "cinematic." I've done ADRP for Star Wars, Barsoom, Middle-earth, some others. ADRP doesn't work well, IMO, for gritty realism. It works best when the heroes are supposed to succeed more often than not. Settings which put the swashbuckling vibe into the game.
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jhkim

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2023, 02:23:23 PM »
I don't agree that it's the power scale. I have played Amber reakinned with all sorts of stuff. supers, Fables, Star Wars, Pirates.
The key is to pick games where there is antagonistic relationship between players.
So Pirates was based on Black Sails. We had Stats of Leadership, Combat, Prowess, Guile. We had no powers but did have some core skills, l - Seamanship, Statecraft and a bunch of resource heavy options with allies, followers ships, political contacts etc .

I think any game in which the players want their characters to be the best at a list of things and in fact hich there is plot intrigue and deceit is perfect.

I clarified about relative power scale. Are you familiar with the Paranoia RPG? It has a lot of antagonism between PCs, as they are all secretly traitors but are rules by the Computer. I don't think it's a good fit for diceless, though, because part of the feel of Paranoia is being a helpless pawn. Random and wacky results are part of the feel.

Amber PCs have reliable abilities. (Unreliable would be randomness.) If you win a fight, it is by innate superiority or guile.

So plot intrigue, guile, and winning by strategy are part of the feel. That means that the PCs should feel like they're in control of their fate, not at the mercy of unreliable or random variations. Feeling in control of your fate is about having some mastery over your circumstances.

Does that make sense?

I just ran a 19th-century-esque fantasy game with psychic powers using diceless stats of Charm, Mind, Spirit, and Body. The PCs competed mostly with other psychics in the face of a huge invasion.

Asking about your games -- When you ran pirates, did the pirates feel like their ship might just go down in a storm? Or were they not concerned about that sort of random events, and felt more like masters of the sea - threatened mainly by other masters of the sea?

Panjumanju

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Re: Amber variants: what makes diceless work
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2024, 09:13:02 AM »
I ran a game of Amber Diceless in the world of Visionaries: Knights of the Magical Light (if anyone remembers that 80s cartoon) that was very successful. The one I've always wanted to use Amber for but haven't yet is Highlander, but I think it would work well.

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