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Author Topic: If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E  (Read 3579 times)

finarvyn

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« on: May 02, 2018, 09:36:55 AM »
The thread on new versus old RPGs in the "Pen & Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion" section got me thinking about rulebooks and how they are written. Naturally, my thoughts drifted to ADRP and what I would do if I was in charge of the franchise. I know that this is not at all a new topic, and the probability of ever seeing an actual ADRP 2E is approximately zero, but I'd be interested in hearing what others would do with a chance to redo the rules.

1. Combine materials from the Core rulebook with Shadow Knight.

I know that some folks love Merlin's books and others despise them, and so there isn't an easy way to make everyone happy, but if I was in charge I would keep any of Erick's rules all together with the idea that some campaigns might allow certain options while other campaigns might allow others. I would keep Erick's actual words as authentic as possible, only re-organized.

If I could add in Jason Durall's Rebma sourcebook, I would do it. All of those materials seem pretty canon to me, as far as the ADRP rules system goes.

2. Divide everything into smaller chunks.

What I would do is divide up the two-book mass of material into a Player's Guide and a GM's Guide. (Perhaps a third volume, the Scenario Book.) I figure that the two new volumes would each be roughly the same thickness as the current two books, but probably more useful.

The Player's Guide can have information about the auction, the cost and details about the powers, how to spend character points, and other information key to putting together a character. It would include the general terminology behind the Amber universe so that newcomers could get a feel for the setting.

The GM's Guide would include Elder options, all of the examples of how to run a game, and other campaign information. The Scenario Book could be included as part of the GM's Guide or its own thing. I'd have to count pages. Basically, all of the stuff that talks about throne wars and other potential scenarios would be included here.
Marv / Finarvyn
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Headless

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2018, 09:36:41 PM »
Amber 2nd ed?  

You need a new setting.  I love Amber but it doesn't have enough followers.  As I have said before it takes too long for players to learn the stakes.  I just came from watching Thanos.  Love 'em or hate 'em, you know the stakes in the Marvel cinamatic universe.  People could start playing right away, instead of taking a month to get their feet under them.  Thats a problem for D&D as well but while people are figuring out what they want to do, there are always orcs to kill and dungeons to loot.  

New setting needs new powers.  Make them big expensive and flexible like pattern.  For instance Stark and Batman have billionaire inventor.  Thor and Black Panther have King (or Prince).  Strange and Scarlett witch have Magic.  Spider man has esp.  There would be a lot of work to do with powers.  The acution would be the same.  
Then a section on random complications.  New players don't have enough history to come into conflict with each other.  The auction is great for that but its not always enough.  I think Serect objectives could help.  As well as random bits of history.  This is the DMs job as well as players but some good tables could really help here.  Especially if they were tied onto some back story or setting element.  

The second book, or second half of the book would be NPCs all stated up like in Amber diceless RPG.  I would also add in prizes.  The infintiy stones are great, somthing to fight over.  Keys to the prison for super villins could be good, registration could be good.  Finding a new home for the Asgardians would be great, doing something about Galatictus could be good.  So the second book would be advanced powers (maybe secret powers) advice on running.  And the extensive notes on Players, Prizes and plots.  

If the relaunch was going to get the full treatment I would then release adventure seeds.  Each one is a comic book paired with a folio of notes for the DM.  The players read the comic, just an intro story (they aren't in it) and an in charcter briefing.  The DM half is Players, Plots and Prizes.  Maybe a place to put you own notes depending on what level of production value you want to aim for.  Importantly these aren't modules or adventure paths.  The charcters have too many options for the publisher to be any help deciding what happens at the table.  These are starters, just to help get the ball rolling.

Spinachcat

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2018, 09:59:14 PM »
I would...add dice. :eek:

Headless makes a good point. I am an Amber fan, but until Amber gets the HBO treatment or a hit movie, it lacks an audience.

Has anyone reskinned Amber for super heroes? I know RPGPundit did Greek gods which was smart and shows the system can stretch beyond Amber. I still believe that he could Kickstart his game and expand the audience because so many RPGers have never heard of diceless (or know how that would work in actual play).

If someone was running Marvel Amber at con, I would absolutely give it a shot.

But as a commercial product? That license is stupid expensive and the smartest move would be to sell Marvel 5e to maximize revenue.

That said...it would not take a genius to scrub the numbers off the Marvel license plate and Kickstart your Diceless Superhero game.

Or...you could approach a smaller comic book publisher and get the rights to their characters and art (so you save on art costs).

finarvyn

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 06:36:35 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1037199
I would...add dice. :eek:
Interesting that you would say that. I was playing in a demo of the "new" Genesys RPG (new to me, actually a generic version of FFC's Star Wars games with the funky dice) and as I was working my way through the learning curve I kept thinking about the narrative way that the funky dice get used, and I kept thinking about how I would love to try this out in an Amber campaign.

My thought is to not port characters directly into Genesys but to stick to the four ADRP stats instead, and rather than buying skills and knacks you would buy Powers as per ADRP. Basically, play ADRP only with the narrative engine provided by the Genesys dice.

If I get time to write up my ideas in more depth I'll post it here.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

finarvyn

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 06:40:13 AM »
Headless makes some awesome points about the Amber franchise and how Marvel Amber would attract a much higher audience. It's a great idea, although it doesn't really follow my original concept. I was thinking of how I would redo the ADRP rules while still using all of Erick's words and examples instead of taking the route that LoO and LoGaS took in rebuilding a diceless game with a new setting but ADRP mechanics.

Yeah, I'd buy a Marvel Universe version of ADRP. :cool: Or, I'd buy a Marvel 5E if someone could capitalize on the D&D mechanics in order to make a superhero game.

As Spinachcat noted, such a franchise would be really expensive. But so is Star Wars, and FFC managed to grab that one.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

Headless

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 01:11:32 PM »
My point about Mavel isn't so much about audience.  Although a bigger audience would be grand, its about homework.

Players don't do homework.  (For the most part)  To play Amber or any game where the player drive the action, the players need to know the setting.  They need to be part of the world.  They need their own plans.  They need to be excited about it all.  It takes time and investment to have goals.  More time to firgure out how to presue them.  Even more to realise another player has goals that are antagonistic to your own and to decide to oppose them.  

I've never gotten a game of Amber to that point.  So I don't think I can say I've ever played Amber.  

So the question is: how do you speed that all up?  Read nine princes is one way.  But getting 8 people to read it is going to be hard, see above about homework.  Watch a movie.  Watch a movie.  Could you all sit down and watch Labyrinth (david bowie) and Legend (Tim curry) and make characters to fit that aesthetic, yes probably.  Or you could jump in to Mavel cinamatic becuase these movies have been coming out for decades now and its a shared culture you can tap into.  

Thats why, in my opinion, Olympus is a much better version of ADRPG than Gossamer and Shadow.  Shared culture.  

I realise you have played a lot more Amber than me.  Do you have the same problem getting started?  What I normally call 'setting the stakes.'

Krimson

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 03:52:48 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1037199
I would...add dice. :eek:

Definitely this. The diceless aspect is why Amber got used as a sourcebook but not a game.
"Anyways, I for one never felt like it had a worse 'yiff factor' than any other system." -- RPGPundit

Spinachcat

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 05:55:50 PM »
Quote from: Headless;1037309
To play Amber or any game where the player drive the action, the players need to know the setting.

This is exactly why I've only played Amber at major conventions.

I run Stormbringer and have a great time, but when I want to run real Stormbringer, I can only do it major cons where I specifically state in the description that the game is for people who have read at least one of the Moorcock novels. Otherwise, its mostly table of people who have just heard of Stormbringer and want to play a fantasy RPG.  

And since Moorcock's books are considered old now and the shelves of new fantasy novels are overflowing, its harder to find Stormbringer fans. :(

Krimson

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2018, 06:13:13 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1037366
And since Moorcock's books are considered old now and the shelves of new fantasy novels are overflowing, its harder to find Stormbringer fans. :(

As someone who has read many many of Moorcock's works, I can emphatically say that I am not a Stormbringer fan and was quite pleased when MM finally got Chaosium to cease and desist using his IP without compensation.
"Anyways, I for one never felt like it had a worse 'yiff factor' than any other system." -- RPGPundit

finarvyn

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2018, 07:05:04 AM »
I enjoy STORMBRINGER (more than most skill-based games, that is) but also was never really aware of the IP struggle between Chaosium and MM back in the day, so I didn't have that bias.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

finarvyn

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2018, 09:02:02 PM »
Just saw Avengers: Infinity War with my family. Thanks to this thread, I spent half the movie wondering how the characters might stat out using ADRP. :)

If only I knew my Marvel Universe stuff better, I'd take a stab at it....
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

Panjumanju

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 01:15:47 PM »
Any edition of Amber that includes dice would be nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. There are enough RPGs with dice. Dice do not make a game a roleplaying game, they're just an often-employed tool. Putting dice back into a diceless system robs it of mechanical innovation. The setting of Amber is wonderful, yes, but if you're looking to add dice back into it, just use another system.

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Krimson

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 02:45:44 PM »
There's no reason an Amber RPG with dice could not exist in addition to the Diceless version. Benedict in AD&D 1e didn't have a perfect sword swing every single time, but he could still clear a room pretty quick. :D
"Anyways, I for one never felt like it had a worse 'yiff factor' than any other system." -- RPGPundit

finarvyn

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2018, 05:15:21 PM »
Quote from: Panjumanju;1038580
Any edition of Amber that includes dice would be nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. There are enough RPGs with dice. Dice do not make a game a roleplaying game, they're just an often-employed tool. Putting dice back into a diceless system robs it of mechanical innovation. The setting of Amber is wonderful, yes, but if you're looking to add dice back into it, just use another system.
Philosophically, I agree with you. ADRP is a fantastic game as-is and really doesn't need dice to work well. My recent experience with Genesys (the FFG system with the funky dice symbols) has shown me that a narrative dice game can be cool as well, and I think it would be interesting to see how well Amber would blend with that system.
Marv / Finarvyn
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edster

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If I was to design Amber Diceless 2E
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2018, 09:45:16 PM »
An option to play the game with dice would be useful to get new players into the game and could be used as a stepping stone towards playing diceless. Similar to how Erik mentioned in the rulebook that he hoped to eventually 'evolve' his campaign away from using any of the stats and just have story. I guess that this would involve writing up two sets of rules for the new edition.

And the previously mentioned idea of a list of hooks or secrets for the characters would be good too. That would allow the GM to pull some ideas he liked out and give or auction them to the players to provide an initial push into the game. Having the players invent their own can lead to unexpected imbalances and over-rewards for the players who have an excess of imagination or time to create them. A playtested list would also have the ideas remain "Amber-ish' rather than have the game lose the Amber-feeling.

I've also noticed that players usually don't really enjoy or take to the player-vs-player aspect of the game, so a collection of ideas to help GMs develop rivalries between the players would be helpful.