Creatures & Artifacts.

[Tolknor]

This is one of the big rules changes in LoO.  The item-creation rules have actually been simplified, and split into two types: Daemons and Olympian Artificing.

It was my feeling that Amber campaigns often got too heavy with people trying to manipulate the point-buy system of item/creature creation in order to get away with abuses.

Sure, i can see it.  And i had some very eager rules-lawyers trying to get away with whatever they could.  My response to extreme cleverness that fell within the scope of the rules but might be unbalancing was to give a little spin.

Since we had to agree on how an item was created, trained, developed, or discovered it had to fit into the RP side of the game as well as the point system side.

If i thought a player was trying to be too clever, outside the scope of his character's experience or abilities, i gave the item its own point or two of bad stuff, making the items temperamental.  Its something players learned to deal with without knowing specifically that there items were tainted.  

In the same sense if a player made an item that was simple, reasonable in the character's history, and elegant, i might give it a point or two of good stuff.  

In the end, few items became overpowering.  Highpoint items often ended up passing between characters and NPCs.  PCs learned to rely on few items.

[RPGPundit]

Hmm. I'd have players complain bitterly about that kind of thing, as you're giving them bad stuff when they took none for the item (or worse, already did and the bad stuff is in their characters, so its like being double-charged).

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

Amber items shoudl be aretypal and part of the core definition of the character. the key is points are comparative. a 40 point item should be tougher than 25 points spent on powerwords for example.

the complex stuff somes with what you get for free.

So if I take a normal mundane item, a chieftan tank, give it shape shift 1  (alterate form - dragon)
I now have a thing with engine speed, armour, deadly damage and a host of other stuff and I only paid 1 point for it.
That is difficult.
Its like if I want an army of basalisks. Base creature basalisk x 3 horde.... in theory you could argue its free.
I have a rule and it's that the base object has at best Human rank. So in the tank example I woudl say it can become a dragon shaped tank but it doesn;t get intelligence etc and you can't start from a dragon as a base object. You have to build the whole thing.
In my games items tend to cost more therefore but they are worth it and players can live with that.

[Tolknor]

Hmm. I'd have players complain bitterly about that kind of thing, as you're giving them bad stuff when they took none for the item (or worse, already did and the bad stuff is in their characters, so its like being double-charged).

RPGPundit

Perhaps calling the spin on an item bad stuff is not quite the right explanation. (Game term with its own meaning)  More along the line of how an item works or behaves.  The ones that come to mind were pattern blades of various kinds and a couple horde creatures.  

SO these items sometimes were not as obedient or docile as the players would have liked.  Some of the creatures began to take on lives of their own and might see advantages in their own best interests rather then the players interest.   Perhaps they would interpret an order given them in a manner the players didn't specifically want.  This lead to one dragon doctor getting eaten by its injured charge, and several Black Horses running off to be with other riders.

[Artifacts of Amber]

Instead of typing out an over long message I will attempt to attach a PDF of my conjuration rules which cover what you get for free and why.

It also has the cost of items and what exactly that gives you as well.

IF your interested that is

This is the system I used for the Artifacts in amber game though they also could by shadows and some other things since they were characters as well as items

[Croaker]

the complex stuff somes with what you get for free.

So if I take a normal mundane item, a chieftan tank, give it shape shift 1  (alterate form - dragon)
I now have a thing with engine speed, armour, deadly damage and a host of other stuff and I only paid 1 point for it.
That is difficult.
Its like if I want an army of basalisks. Base creature basalisk x 3 horde.... in theory you could argue its free.
I have a rule and it's that the base object has at best Human rank. So in the tank example I woudl say it can become a dragon shaped tank but it doesn;t get intelligence etc and you can't start from a dragon as a base object. You have to build the whole thing.
In my games items tend to cost more therefore but they are worth it and players can live with that.

Yeah, this is problematic.

I did a similar, yet different thing. For exemple, a tank changed into a dragon would still retain the intelligence of a tank. That is, you'd have the body of a dragon, with the rigidity of a tank (that is, a flesh statue).
More importantly, abilities don't translate over forms, so it would be made of flesh, without the tank's durability.

Yet, what if someone wanted an intelligent tank, with a few stats so that it could move by itself (instead of just being an intelligent pile of metal in bad need of a driver)? That's the tricky part, and I never encountered it.
What I probably would have done:
- Armor: Free
- Speed of movement: Free... But subject to local shadow laws. Else, you must pay.
- Explosive shells: Free, but subject to local shadow laws.

[Tolknor]

to get back to the items.  More write ups!

Here is one that terrified my players.

Flippin Dice-75 pips
Hunt in Shadow-8 (a fast version of seek in shadow, but could redirect when the target moved)
Engine Speed-4
Invulnerable-4
Regenerate-4  (Reassemble)
Rack spell-1 (Know Victim)
trump-4 (Could trump away from nearly any form of binding, or prison to their starting point)
Horde*3

This item was a singe die the size of a casino die, 1 inch square.  Once set on a target it flipped from side to side in the direction of the target, following them through shadow, coming on them at odd times, flipping mercilessly toward them.

In game play these freaked the players out.  They did nothing spectacular except flip side to side toward their target.  Players figured out who the target was and did all kinds of things to prevent the dice from reaching their targets.  In game play none of the dice ever reached their victim.  I had this trap in 3 decades of game campaigns of one kind or another and no player ever just went and picked them up.  The joke was that if they had nothing would have happened.  They would have had a die they could sic on one of their enemies.    My players were always too worried about what they might do, to find out what they did do.

I ran it in many games by having the one red casino die in my dice bag on the table.  I would flip it casually, while talking about something else.  The players who had dice tracking them would get all nervous...

[Sydius Mendoza]

I ran it in many games by having the one red casino die in my dice bag on the table.  I would flip it casually, while talking about something else.  The players who had dice tracking them would get all nervous...

ALWAYS play with their minds!

[Tolknor]

ALWAYS play with their minds!

Of course!  Whats the point of doing all the work of putting together a great game for the players to really think about as well as get a few fights in if I, as the GM, don't get to enjoy the look of worried anticipation on their faces!  

Oh, I do it for the onion dip, Porter beer, and the cheap whiskey too of course.

[Sydius Mendoza]

Oh, I do it for the onion dip, Porter beer, and the cheap whiskey too of course.

Naturally

[RPGPundit]

Perhaps calling the spin on an item bad stuff is not quite the right explanation. (Game term with its own meaning)  More along the line of how an item works or behaves.  The ones that come to mind were pattern blades of various kinds and a couple horde creatures.  

SO these items sometimes were not as obedient or docile as the players would have liked.  Some of the creatures began to take on lives of their own and might see advantages in their own best interests rather then the players interest.   Perhaps they would interpret an order given them in a manner the players didn't specifically want.  This lead to one dragon doctor getting eaten by its injured charge, and several Black Horses running off to be with other riders.

That's a bit better than what I was inferring from the use of the term 'bad stuff', but there's still a problematic side to it if you're doing that with items that really have no cause to start behaving that way.

what I mean is that its perfectly valid for an item, construct, or creature with intelligence to start acting independent from its owner, and to extrapolate from this to say that the more powerful an item is, the more likely it is to act more independently.  But if a player is careful not to give his item intelligence of any sort, it would seem like an act of GM fiat to just have the item start being rebellious when there's no more reason why it should do so than for an ordinary sword or steam-engine or whatever to do so.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

to get back to the items.  More write ups!

Here is one that terrified my players.

Flippin Dice-75 pips
Hunt in Shadow-8 (a fast version of seek in shadow, but could redirect when the target moved)
Engine Speed-4
Invulnerable-4
Regenerate-4  (Reassemble)
Rack spell-1 (Know Victim)
trump-4 (Could trump away from nearly any form of binding, or prison to their starting point)
Horde*3

This item was a singe die the size of a casino die, 1 inch square.  Once set on a target it flipped from side to side in the direction of the target, following them through shadow, coming on them at odd times, flipping mercilessly toward them.

In game play these freaked the players out.  They did nothing spectacular except flip side to side toward their target.  Players figured out who the target was and did all kinds of things to prevent the dice from reaching their targets.  In game play none of the dice ever reached their victim.  I had this trap in 3 decades of game campaigns of one kind or another and no player ever just went and picked them up.  The joke was that if they had nothing would have happened.  They would have had a die they could sic on one of their enemies.    My players were always too worried about what they might do, to find out what they did do.

I ran it in many games by having the one red casino die in my dice bag on the table.  I would flip it casually, while talking about something else.  The players who had dice tracking them would get all nervous...

I can't belive you broke the only Hard rule of ADRPG, there are no DICE.... rookie error

[Tolknor]

I can't believe you broke the only Hard rule of ADRPG, there are no DICE.... rookie error

Hernk!
Ya we made that joke a lot too.    I fiddled with a die whenever i was running a game.

[Croaker]

/Agree with Pundit about items and "bad stuff". I'd have hated this if, as a player, going the "safe" road would still give me problems.

A simple one:
Flaming Sword: Double Damage (2), Mold Shadow stuff (1): Unless in Amber and similar "hard places", this sword could inflame itself, which had all kind of obvious uses.

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

A simple one:
Flaming Sword: Double Damage (2), Mold Shadow stuff (1): Unless in Amber and similar "hard places", this sword could inflame itself, which had all kind of obvious uses.

I had a character with a flaming sword, too, but I built it with "Alternate Form (1 point)" instead of "Mold Shadow Stuff (1)."