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Author Topic: Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)  (Read 1880 times)

Abrojo

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« on: November 24, 2008, 02:01:49 AM »
So i was thinking today and the following came to mind.

1) Usually Endurance is not valued very much by Players. It has its uses mind you, but its used mostly as a tie breaker because if someone is stomping someone else, surviving 1 more hit on average wont change the outcome.

2) Warfare is very powerful, not only does it dictates ability with any weapon, tactical and strategical mastery, cant be surprised, etc. But in addition it also dictates reaction speed, sort of like the initiative in most situations (wont in psyche combat for example).

It seems to me Warfare is a bit overstacked giving ability + reaction time. Also it prevents from character variation because if you want to make a fast "whatever" you will need warfare and that kind of sucks for several builds.

So came up with the following tweak that could fix this balance a bit so that more attributes are relevant and more variation is possible (fast mentalist, fast martial artist?, etc)

Switch the speed aspect of Warfare to Endurance, rename it Fitness.

It's a simple yet effective solution. Warfare is still very strong. Also this solution doesnt involve breaking down attributes, adding more or some complicated thing. Same amount of attributes, just 1 gets renamed to better show it's slighter broader meaning.
 

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 02:45:47 PM »
That's possible, and yet, I think that you're underestimating the value of Endurance. If two characters face each other and they're close in warfare/strength/psyche (whatever they're using for the battle function), then the one who's going to go down first is the one with less endurance. In any battle, Endurance ends up mattering about as much as "hit points" would matter in another RPG, which is to say quite a lot.

A player who doesn't value it a lot is like a player in D&D who doesn't value having a lot of hit points. He damn well better be sure he isn't going to take a lot of damage.   With Warfare, for example, a character with high warfare and low endurance is going to either have to hope for making a very swift kill, or switch to a very defensive strategy relatively early in the battle.  Whereas if he has high warfare and high endurance, he can go more all out, and make wilder riskier attacks, because he can feel confident that if he takes a couple of hits in the process he'll still be standing.

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 02:46:03 PM »
That's possible, and yet, I think that you're underestimating the value of Endurance. If two characters face each other and they're close in warfare/strength/psyche (whatever they're using for the battle function), then the one who's going to go down first is the one with less endurance. In any battle, Endurance ends up mattering about as much as "hit points" would matter in another RPG, which is to say quite a lot.

A player who doesn't value it a lot is like a player in D&D who doesn't value having a lot of hit points. He damn well better be sure he isn't going to take a lot of damage.   With Warfare, for example, a character with high warfare and low endurance is going to either have to hope for making a very swift kill, or switch to a very defensive strategy relatively early in the battle.  Whereas if he has high warfare and high endurance, he can go more all out, and make wilder riskier attacks, because he can feel confident that if he takes a couple of hits in the process he'll still be standing.

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Corvus

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 03:51:50 PM »
As with all things in the ADRPG, It's all in how you play the game.  Think about what high Endurance actually does for you:

1.) Amber rank or higher to walk the Pattern.  No wiggle room on that; Amber or death.  Now, most PCs will be able to take the Pattern by default, but it means you can't sell down if you want Pattern power.  Given Pattern's supremacy in the game, it's generally the smart thing to do.  Yes, you can get around it with good play, but if you can play Logrus or Trump to beat Pattern, think about what you could do with the same play using Pattern itself.

2.) Regeneration.  Corwin's eyeball trick impresses the hell out of me, at least.  The Amber universe is dangerous and I like to be able to take the hits and bounce back.  Being able to return from "certain" death or "permanent" injury is a huge advantage.

3.) Resistance.  The ability to walk in places in Shadow that others could not.  Shrug off disease, radiation, deprivation.  Combine high Endurance with Broken Pattern for an ace-in-the-hole pair, as nobody will be looking for it *and* you'll usually wind up in places they don't want to be.

4.) The "battery", as you mentioned, in both physical and mental/magial actions.  Combined with the above benefits, I think being able to simply outlast in a contest, be it physical, psychic or magical, is a serious boost.

My usual strategy is to shoot for high Psyche along with at least moderately-ranked Endurance, no matter what character I'm playing, and I never sell Endurance down.
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Abrojo

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 06:52:56 AM »
I understand Endurance has it's uses, some of them quite decent and relevant.

Just saying that since the whole point of the auction is to make all attributes look equal, might as well make it more believable and push endurance up there with the rest :)

But its not only about Endurance and if its worth the points a player might have invested there. It's also about Warfare when compared to the other attributes.
Warfare is an offensive attribute at its very heart just like Psyche and Strength, this is what breaks apart those 3 from endurance and why they are usually more looked after. Psyche is perhaps the most equal (or at least debatable) since being the base for most of the other powers makes it very important.

What makes Warfare an extremely good offensive power is that it also dictates reaction speed. Reaction speed is extremely important, even more so when items and powers that can decide a fight are factored in.

And its not only about balance, its also about character options. Having speed not depend on any offensive attribute would definitely open more options. For example, Fast strength user vs Slow strength user:
Could go all out in points into strength or could swap some of them into Endurance instead to be a bit faster. All this while leaving psyche or traditional warfare abilities untouched.
Add into the mix the mainly psyche user and the weapon master.

Actually, if you think about it, Endurance would still be a tie breaker only that this time instead of being an abstract (and boring perhaps) tie breaker that burdens the GM with making calls, being faster means someone weaker can try to make up ingame when he gets to act first instead of having the stat dictate it.

in D&D terms, i cant map all attributes to each other, but if i had to do an analogy i would say i dont like the idea of strength determining initiative. Fighters screw everyone else, would rather have Constitution determine it since it has the same relevance for everyone.

@Corvus: i am talking of making it attractive enough so that people want to be higher than someone else in order to act first. Not just so they dont sell it down.
@Pundit: of course i am not talking from the perspective of our current campaign, auction already happened. More in line with future amber games i might participate on or actually run. Just making it clear i have no secret agenda or double intentions :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 06:59:09 AM by Abrojo »
 

Croaker

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 03:47:34 PM »
Problem is: Corwin would have better reflexes and all than benedict...
 

Abrojo

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 04:11:30 PM »
heh guess you got me there :)
 

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 12:43:15 PM »
One thing to keep in mind, Abrojo (and I don't know if you've read the first series of Amber novels or not; I hope you haven't read the second yet since that would involve some spoilers for you), is that for anyone who doubts Endurance's value, they should recall that the Hero of the first novels is Corwin, who is 1st rank in Endurance; not warfare, strength, or psyche.

And at one point or another, he kicks the fuck out of the 1st rank warfare dude (Benedict), and the (arguably) 1st round psyche dude (Brand, who ties with Fiona for Psyche, basically).

Granted, he never does get the best of Gerard, who essentially fucks him up at least once that I recall...

But the point is that he "wins". He's the guy that beats out all the rest because he can just keep going and going and going.

And let me say one more thing in terms of this current campaign: You have not yet come anywhere near to exploring the real limits of what your Endurance can do, mainly because you have yet to get into any serious combat (granted, your combat-stats are sort of puny compared to others'), you haven't been tortured horribly yet (either intentionally or "by events") and you haven't yet made use of any major powers for a prolonged period of time.

Get into a serious psyche-fight with pretty much any other member of your generation, and then tell me about how useless your endurance is, buddy...

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Corvus

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 01:16:28 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;269725
One thing to keep in mind, Abrojo (and I don't know if you've read the first series of Amber novels or not; I hope you haven't read the second yet since that would involve some spoilers for you), is that for anyone who doubts Endurance's value, they should recall that the Hero of the first novels is Corwin, who is 1st rank in Endurance; not warfare, strength, or psyche.


Pardon me for being a parrot, but what Pundit said.  Abrojo, the list of reasons I gave you were for "why Endurance is hella useful", not "why you shouldn't sell it down".  I mentioned not selling it down with regard to Pattern; that wasn't my entire point.  My point was that Endurance has a lot more uses than simply dragging out contests, if you think about how to use it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;269725
And at one point or another, he kicks the fuck out of the 1st rank warfare dude (Benedict), and the (arguably) 1st round psyche dude (Brand, who ties with Fiona for Psyche, basically).


A perfect illustration of how you can still beat the guy who is 1st in Warfare, or Psyche, by simply changing the nature of the engagement.  Yes, Warfare gives you reflexes.  You also have to be engaged in a certain kind of conflict for that to matter.  Amber characters don't always engage their enemies by main force; in fact, that's less common than deceit, trickery, proxies, and so on.  Warfare isn't an uberattribute unless you limit yourself to one particular approach.

Quote from: RPGPundit;269725
Granted, he never does get the best of Gerard, who essentially fucks him up at least once that I recall...


Corwin played Gerard's game and Gerard thrashed him.  An example of how not to take on the guy who is 1st in Strength.  Corwin's heart wasn't in the fight, however.  If he had really wanted to beat Gerard, he wouldn't have engaged Gerard in that brawl.

Quote from: RPGPundit;269725
But the point is that he "wins". He's the guy that beats out all the rest because he can just keep going and going and going.


And, if I might add, a devious bastard.  He knows to change the rules to favor himself whenever he can.

Quote from: RPGPundit;269725
Get into a serious psyche-fight with pretty much any other member of your generation, and then tell me about how useless your endurance is, buddy...


At least from what I've read, Abrojo isn't saying Endurance is useless.  I gather he just sees it as not being as useful as Warfare (or, to put it another way, he sees Warfare as the uberattribute, kind of how REF dominates Interlock games, and so on).  I don't know about the campaign you mentioned, Pundit, so I couldn't say anything for sure.
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Abrojo

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2008, 04:45:24 AM »
yeah well of course i am partially influenced by my current character, cant avoid that. But not exclusively, or at least i am trying not to be (though might be failing), the rulebook itself mentions Endurance as a tiebreaker, etc.

But yeah, given i have minuscule experience with Amber and considering the input shared here by people with vastly more experience, i will take another look at things and think more about it since i am clearly missing creativity/etc in how Endurance applies. Thanks for the input Pundit & Corvus.

And pundit, though i have already acquired the novels, i havent touched any yet because i dont want to feel tempted to go into the second series after reading the first :)
 

finarvyn

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 09:20:41 AM »
I think that Endurance is actually the BEST of the four attributes already.

The simple reason is because Endurance can help me in all three types on conflicts (mental, athletic, combat) and all I have to do is be close to the other person in ability and then my Endurance will allow me to outlast them.

Keep in mind that there is a big leap from Shadow to Chaos to Amber, but that the Ranked characters aren't typically that different from one another. Compare this to basketball players -- high school players might be Shadow level, college players might be Chaos level, professional players might be Amber level, and ranked players are the better pro players. A pro player might "own" a college or high school kid in a game, but all pro players are pretty darned good and it's tough to be significantly superior to other pro players. Sometimes you get a Michael Jordan who is hands-down better than his peers, but typically their skill levels are similar.

In other words, two guys with Warfare 30 and 40 get into a duel. While you can argue that 10 points sounds significant, it probably isn't. The guy who spent 40 isn't going to be 133% the swordsman of the guy who spent 30, even though he spent 33% more points. It will come down to preparation and/or tricks, bluffing one another, and if no one runs away it will probably come down to Endurance.

Just my two cents.
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Croaker

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2008, 07:34:35 PM »
I hate to point this, but actually, Endurance is only as strong as your GM lets it be. If he decides that 2 ranks of difference is enough to completely own someone, you're toast in most cases, while, if the says that, up to 5 ranks, you're "close enough", endurance will be much more powerfull.
 

finarvyn

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 11:04:03 AM »
Quote from: Croaker;270044
I hate to point this, but actually, Endurance is only as strong as your GM lets it be. If he decides that 2 ranks of difference is enough to completely own someone, you're toast in most cases, while, if the says that, up to 5 ranks, you're "close enough", endurance will be much more powerfull.

Oh, I agree that the GM has the final say.

I'm addressing the spirit of the rulebook and basing my comments on discussions I had with Erick at a game convention years ago. His take on the whole thing was that "ranked" is all very similar to each other and that it took a significant difference in points to get a real advantage.

Each GM can interpret the rules in his own manner, however.
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boulet

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 10:10:11 AM »
I can relate to Abrojo's line of thinking as I have been thinking in terms of game balance and the attributes description and/or adequacy to the Amber cycles. I never felt Endurance needed any tweaking though. I think the story of Corwin pleads strongly for high Endurance rank. A player may disregard Endurance and have a different tactical approach to the game of course. I personally find much more difficult to sell Strength as an important attribute. Sure high Strength is deadly once the confrontation is in grapple mode... but would anyone with a sub par Strength agree to drop weapons and "fight it like a man" ? Don't think so. Actually the two hand to hand fights I can remember from the books (Corwin vs Gerard and Dalt vs Luke) seem to need an agreement between the protagonists, a bit like the offender is asked to choose the weapons in a duel. So my angle on this is that Strength is a bit of a weak attribute... still it could be a surprise ace out of one's sleeve.

The real tweaking I would do about the attributes stems from an aspect of the books that I don't think is well represented by the tetralogy of Warfare, Psyche, Strength and Endurance : influence over Shadow. The scenes I have in mind are those where characters traveling through Shadow try to force, evade or harm other travelers. Say when Random try to reach Amber in the first book, assumed to be a confrontation with Eric and his allies who defend the roads to Amber. Or when Corwin is trying to distance Benedict by traveling through a blazing forest. Or when Merlin has to deal with a doped Luke and tries to break free from his hallucinatory Wonderland while fighting Jabberwockies and demons. This type of conflicts that use different powers over Shadow isn't well represented by the original four attributes IMO. One possibility is to assign this role to Psyche but it doesn't satisfy me. I don't find such a strong correlation between Pysche and the ability to travel/shape Shadow. So I'm contemplating to add a Shadowfare attribute to my next game (please feel free to suggest a better name).

SunBoy

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Atribute Tweak (Endurance -> Fitness)
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 07:25:30 PM »
Quote from: finarvyn;269949
I think that Endurance is actually the BEST of the four attributes already.



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