Powers Creation Rules from Amber

[RPGPundit]

You know, the ones in the main book, with the kind of checklist? Has anyone actually used that thing?

Can you actually get a power out of it that is both useful for something and doesn't cost like 2000 points?

Here's a good example to me of something we could work on improving for the new edition: a new and more efficient system of powers creation that keeps to what I think was Erick's original intent (he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that he made the costs so high because he didn't want people "breaking the game" by making ultrapowerful new and unique Powers that outshone Pattern and Logrus, which should really always be the most significant Powers of the game?), but actually allows you to create some new stuff which has utility and interest?


RPGPundit

[Otha]

Personally, I think any system for setting point values on powers is ripe for rules-lawyering.  The GM should be the only one constructing powers, and he should price them according to the way he runs his game, since every GM does things differently.

[finarvyn]

Personally, I think any system for setting point values on powers is ripe for rules-lawyering.  The GM should be the only one constructing powers, and he should price them according to the way he runs his game, since every GM does things differently.

Otha, I agree, but this seems counter to what I would have expected you to say. :confused: I thought you had concern that the GM has too much power, and that allowing the GM to set point prices would give the GM even more. Perhaps I have somehow oversimplified your position. (:confused:  again.)

I think that the reason for a point cost for the GM is simply to give him some general guidelines. As an Amber GM I feel free to tweak numbers as I see fit, but it's nice to have a general number to shoot for so that my estimates aren't too wacky.

Suppose I wanted to buy a car and the salesman quotes me an intrest rate. Hopefully I have some sort of frame of reference to tell me if this is a good deal or not. Hopefully the salesman has one as well. I may not get the deal I was hoping for, but at least I can determine if we're in the right ballpark.

The beauty of the ADRP system is that there are general guidelines that the GM can follow, but it is also flexible enough that the GM can throw most of it out and customize the numbers to fit whatever setting he imagines. That's part of what I like about it.

And to answer the original question, no I've never actually used those rules to build powers and if I did I certainly wouldn't allow for the players to do it!

[Syzygy]

Erick elaborated on this point in Amberzine #3:

Q:

"In the Designing New Powers section (page 117), is the point cost system correct?  Using this system the cost for even a minor Power seems high."

A:

"Correct.  The multipliers create very large numbers when putting together new Powers.  However, recall that pages 117 to 119 are within the "Game Master Mechanics" section.

"After all, do you think that Dworkin, in creating the Primal Pattern, spent a measly 50 (or even 150) points?

"Not likely!

"As a Game Master you can bring the points down to player scale by several methods.  Consider first the possibility that the new power is shared, just as player characters can reduce their costs by sharing personal Shadows or items.

"For example, let's say that an extradimensional creature, akin to the Unicorn, created some Power that was an alternative to Trump.  That creature would pay a whole lot of points.  Characters, player or no, learning to manipulate the creature's Power would pay a fraction of that amount.  The only way to evaluate the character points is by determinig the motivations, goals, and degree of interest of the creature.

"Or you might use the item quantity multipliers in reverse.  Therefore, a single controlling being (like a pre-Oberon Dworkin) would have to bear the full brunt of that cost.  It would be cheaper for Named & Numbered users (the rarified few who have the advanced form?) since they would only have to pay half.  Then a horde of initiates pay just one third and so forth...

"I must confess that I deliberately kept the New Power section opaque.  Players, especially first time players, have their hands full just with the basic Powers.  Rather than opening the door for greedy, point-oriented players to pester their Game Masters, I made the process of creating Powers seem prohibitively expensive."

[jibbajibba]

Just cos a rule is int eh rule book doesn't make it a good rule. I think Pundit has it about right when he says that the rules for new powers as given get too expensive. Likewise Otha's point that only GMs can create new powers has validity.
However, if you want to encourage originality I suggest an alternate. This is from practical experince of a game I am currently running. 2 characters wanted unique powers , i had to be fair encouraged such approaches. They had taken different approaches. One had designed a Ygg based power that used the rule book and came up with it's relative merits versus other powers etc and its limitations a very high cost, loads of limitations to compensate and actually no idea about what it actually did apart from teleport him between empowered trees throughout shadow. The other guy has an idea of a Power based on time, like a rarified form of Shadow manipulation in that it could only affect localised timeflow. He has a list of specific stuff he wanted it to do and had picked a cost out of the air, and to be fair was willing to negotiate on most of it.
The first one was much harder to rule on. As the campaign uses partial powers I looked at what the power might do and checked out a few other Ygg powers on the web. I came up with a power tree, where he could get what he has asked for more or less for the cost he wanted but without some of the grosser limitations like the fact that if he lost his staff he lost absolutely all the powers. In the end for about 30 points he can move between known locations in shadow (via trees) he can empower himself as per his comparative tougher than and weaker than other powers cost as a defense and an attack. I then had the option for adding additional advanced areas he could move into.
The Temporal power I just divided into its component actions , the stuff it could do, decided ad hoc that it was weaker than Logrus and Pattern when it came to manipulating shadow on a wide scale but locally it could do what he wanted, pause timeflow, etc but for a very limited number of seconds based on his psyche and then costed it our in a Power Tree. so for about 30 points he can pause time for 20 seconds although he can not interact with the environment in this time he can move, he can replay time from a scene to see what happened and a few other bits and pieces. The second power does have potential to unbalance but I let him know that I was in control of it and I set out some advanced stuff he could do so he had a development plan so to speak. This in turn let him know the limits of what he could currently do.
So the long and the short of it is that its your game and you can make up. The idea that players share a power doesn't really make sense logically after all would new players  learning a power pay less than old one or would the old ones get cost back. And in games terms if a player nicks the jewel of judgment and draws a new pattern, what they end up with 2000 points of bad stuff to work off?
I can't imagine a second edition would not go down the partial powers route as it's become the de facto norm in most games as far as I can tell, and it's far closer to the books and Partial Powers let you cost out what a new power can do very easily. You might looks at Pattern and say it's potential is 500 points and it includes all this funky stuff the unicorn can do or that Dworkin can do but look for 10 points you can walk through shadow with it and you can buy it in little chunks at 5 points a pop.

[Otha]

Otha, I agree, but this seems counter to what I would have expected you to say.

All part of my devious plan!

[Djoul]

Erick elaborated on this point in Amberzine #3:
[...]
"I must confess that I deliberately kept the New Power section opaque.  Players, especially first time players, have their hands full just with the basic Powers.  Rather than opening the door for greedy, point-oriented players to pester their Game Masters, I made the process of creating Powers seem prohibitively expensive."

That's a good point indeed. I mean, after a while anyway one start  looking for new powers and then you don't use those rules anyway. You compare with other powers as you know them now and depending on your ethic you may add a little more to the faire price as a "pay-for-your-style"  tax.

[crafty]

I admit to "cheating".  If someone has an idea for a power, I have them break it down into components (I use partial powers), without any points.  Then I try to balance with the other powers in the game.  I find this works the best, and I make sure that two different powers are different, but things that achieve the same result are similar in cost.