Amber: WTF?

[Casey777]

Ok, so it's based on the Amber novels, its diceless, and it's written by Erick Wujcik.

I couldn't make it through the 2nd Amber novel and all I remember of the first is a lot of high powered lords skipping around time and space being witty, I have Dr. Who for that.

Diceless? I like dice and not sure why I should even try diceless, esp. if it's tied to a setting. If I want pure freeform I can BS with friends or family.

I like Erick Wujcik's Palladium work in general, and if I have money to spend on his rpgs, I'd rather get some of his Palladium books I don't have yet. After the Bomb for starters.

The Pundit raves about Amber and it's a centerpiece of his anti-Swine tirades, which does not endear it to me. It also makes me wonder that if the Pundit can get the non-traditional Amber (in both setting and system) why he has such problems with other "difficult" games. That GOO were interested in it enough to try and publish it is a plus, but then they also had Nobilis.

So WTF should I be interested in Amber? What's it about, what's so cool about it?

[Serious Paul]

...what's so cool about it?

Having read both the books and the game, which I am ashamed to say I own a copy of, I'll be interested to hear what I've been missing since day one-because as far as I can tell the answer to the above question is: nothing.

[hgjs]

So WTF should I be interested in Amber?

While people play the game who have never read the books, if you have read the first one-and-a-half Amber books and actively dislike them I don't think the Amber RPG is for you.  I mean, I wouldn't recommend a Star Wars RPG to someone who hates Star Wars.

[James McMurray]

And if you can't envision gaming without dice, it's also not for you.

Not every game is right for every player.

[finarvyn]

Casey, I remember you from the DF boards and you always seemed pretty open minded over there. Why so hostile here?
 

I couldn't make it through the 2nd Amber novel and all I remember of the first is a lot of high powered lords skipping around time and space being witty, I have Dr. Who for that.

It's possible that the Amber universe isn't your thing, but I've seen the basic game played in worlds other than Amber. Amber is the "default" setting because the game was designed to play using the powers and magics of Zelazny's world. There is no reason why it can't be used in other settings, but some things would have to be adjusted first.

Amber is best played in a "high fantasy" setting where the heroes usually can do what they want. In other words, it's more King Arthur than it is Lord of the Rings although I've used LotR as a setting with some success. King Arthur had the sword Excalibur, Merlin had his magic, other knights did amazing things and fought dragons. It would be easy to create a list of abilities for a Camelot campaign and get the game going in a hurry. A Middle-earth game could be run as long as the players aren't Hobbits or other mundanes. I've used the ADRP system for Star Wars and was thinking about doing it for Harry Potter. The point is that you don't have to be a fan of Amber to enjoy ADRP, but it helps!

Diceless? I like dice and not sure why I should even try diceless, esp. if it's tied to a setting. If I want pure freeform I can BS with friends or family.

I like dice as well, and have played D&D, EPT, and other classic RPGs going back to 1975. They're fun and ADRP is fun. Neither is better, but they're different. My game group resisted ADRP at first, and most of them weren't that impressed with Zelazny, but they really enjoyed diceless once they gave it a try. ADRP isn't really "freeform" because it does have a conflict resolution system that allows the GM to determine outcomes for a reason, not "just because".

 

The Pundit raves about Amber and it's a centerpiece of his anti-Swine tirades, which does not endear it to me. It also makes me wonder that if the Pundit can get the non-traditional Amber (in both setting and system) why he has such problems with other "difficult" games. That GOO were interested in it enough to try and publish it is a plus, but then they also had Nobilis.

I can't speak for Pundit on this, but I have owned and read both 1E and 2E Nobilis and I don't get it either. Many of these games seem to flow in flowery prose and I just don't "get" the mechanic or how to run the darned things. ADRP has an extremely simple mechanic and few flowery words that get in the way. ADRP was the original and lots of people wanted to take the idea and go with it, which is fine, but I really like the original.

So WTF should I be interested in Amber? What's it about, what's so cool about it?

There are elements of Amber (the universe) that I loved from the moment I read the books. I think the Trumps are really cool, and I like a world that mixes magic and swordsmanship with minimal use of firearms and technology. I like the concept of walking through Shadows to get to other places. I like the clear Law-Chaos conflict between Amber and the Courts.

As far as the game goes, there is a simple conflict resolution system that can become more complex as players and GM become more familiar with the system. Characters have attributes, powers, items, allies, and the like which they can customize using a point-build system, so players have a lot of options as to what type of character they want to be. Amber is about options, not limitations, and most of the rulebook is extras. If a person wanted to trim out the "world" information and all of the examples, the entire ADRP rules can fit on a couple sheets of paper!

Hope this helps!

[The Yann Waters]

I can’t speak for Pundit on this, but I have owned and read both 1E and 2E Nobilis and I don’t get it either. Many of these games seem to flow in flowery prose and I just don’t “get” the mechanic or how to run the darned things.

The mechanics are very simple indeed. To clarify on the uses of Aspect, any action that an ordinary human being could perform on one of those good days when nothing seems to go wrong has the difficulty of zero and will succeed automatically. Actions which would require a highly skilled professional have the difficulty of one, world class performances two, and legendary feats three. And as long as there is the slightest chance that a common mortal might have done it even once during the course of history, four is as high as the difficulty can go, at the utmost limits of what the species is capable of: beyond that, we are talking about genuinely superhuman miracles like rushing about at supersonic speeds or juggling malls or stunning entire armies with a smile or plucking stars from the sky.

[RPGPundit]

The mechanics are very simple indeed. To clarify on the uses of Aspect, any action that an ordinary human being could perform on one of those good days when nothing seems to go wrong has the difficulty of zero and will succeed automatically. Actions which would require a highly skilled professional have the difficulty of one, world class performances two, and legendary feats three. And as long as there is the slightest chance that a common mortal might have done it even once during the course of history, four is as high as the difficulty can go, at the utmost limits of what the species is capable of: beyond that, we are talking about genuinely superhuman miracles like rushing about at supersonic speeds or juggling malls or stunning entire armies with a smile or plucking stars from the sky.

Grimgent, this is a forum about Amber, a thread about Amber, responding to Amber.

Please, I know its almost impossible for you because of the apparently obsessive-compulsive disorder you have with that fucking game, but try to avoid threadcrapping and derailing the subject. NO ONE WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT NOBILIS on this thread, at least. If Fin really wants you to tutor him in how to play the "Mornington Crescent" of the RPG world, he can go ask. If you really want to pontificate about how easy it is, please go start another fucking thread about it.
And on a different subforum than this one, because here it'd be off-topic.

As to Casey's original thread: I have to ask, have you read the RPG yet? Or are you asking if its worth reading? Because those are two very different situations.
If you've read it and didn't get it, I'd say based on everything else you said, walk away. Its unfortunate, but Amber is not for everyone.

If you haven't read the gamebook yet, you might want to check it out and see for yourself, to figure out what the fuss is all about.
Your having disliked the novels isn't exactly a hopeful situation, but the game might surprise you. I know a few people who didn't like the novels but loved the RPG.
As for why "freeform"? Amber isn't actually Freeform, its a very tight and focused RPG, that plays sort of like Chess or Diplomacy (more like the latter than the former, really, but less people know Diplomacy).  In other words, its very strategic.  Its also a game where, in spite of this, players rarely have to worry about stats or mechanics.  Its a great game if you don't want to play loosey-goosey "rules lite" games that are mechanically unsound, but you also don't want to have to spend your time keeping track of feats/skills/points/dots whatever.

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

Having read both the books and the game, which I am ashamed to say I own a copy of, I'll be interested to hear what I've been missing since day one-because as far as I can tell the answer to the above question is: nothing.

Ouch. This slipped past me in my first reading of this thread. I suspect it slipped past Pundit as well, otherwise I'm betting he would have harsher words to say to you than I have:

1. Paul, why are you ashamed to have a copy of ADRP? :confused:  (And if you don't want it, I'll send you my address and you can send it to me -- my copy is pretty worn out.)

2. If you think that ADRP is so worthless, why bother to hang out and post on an ADRP message board? Seems to me that you're just trolling and looking for someone to get ticked off at you, with an attitude like that. :mad:

I'm sorry, but it's like you painted this giant red bullseye on your forehead.

[ColonelHardisson]

The setting for Amber is breathtakingly ambitious. It posits basically an infinity of parallel universes, wherein essentially anything you can imagine can be found. If that's not cool, I don't know what is. I've read and re-read the original Amber series, the one featuring Corwin, a number of times since the 1970s. Each reading has revealed something more. Zelazny was a fantastic author.

That said, and also saying that I think the Amber DRPG is a well-written book and has what I feel are the definitive illustrations of the Amber royal family, I'm just not crazy about the actual game. I don't really have an interest in diceless RPGs. But, seeing that there is a small but ardent fanbase that has kept the game alive for so long, it must work well on some level.

[James McMurray]

Mail it to me instead, I don't actually own a physical copy.

[Serious Paul]

1. Paul, why are you ashamed to have a copy of ADRP? :confused:  (And if you don't want it, I'll send you my address and you can send it to me -- my copy is pretty worn out.)

It's possibly the least fun, least entertaining piece of crap I've ever had the misfortune of procuring. I'm glad I snagged it cheap, because I'd have been angry to have paid full price for it.

What makes it more tragic is I enjoyed the books.

2. If you think that ADRP is so worthless, why bother to hang out and post on an ADRP message board?

Because like I said I honestly interested in why other people like it. I never got the chance to play it, as none of my players were even remotely interested. I figured somebody here would post something interesting that I'd enjoy reading.

Seems to me that you're just trolling and looking for someone to get ticked off at you, with an attitude like that. :mad:

Ironically enough I'm not trying to troll. As a consolation, I'm never worried if anyone gets ticked off at me. It's the internet. If I got upset every time someone called me a name or what not, I'd have no life to live.

I'm sorry, but it's like you painted this giant red bullseye on your forehead.

No worries. I've been following peoples replies and trying to figure out what the appeal to the game is.

As for mailing it to you, the book, I'll have to see if we still have it. A lot of my RPG materials were victimized by me ex-wife during our divorce-I'm sad to say.

[Otha]

Wow.  And *I* get called worthless.

[Casey777]

Casey, I remember you from the DF boards and you always seemed pretty open minded over there. Why so hostile here?
 
Amber is best played in a “high fantasy” setting where the heroes usually can do what they want.

I’ve used the ADRP system for Star Wars and was thinking about doing it for Harry Potter. The point is that you don’t have to be a fan of Amber to enjoy ADRP, but it helps!

ADRP isn’t really “freeform” because it does have a conflict resolution system that allows the GM to determine outcomes for a reason, not “just because”.

The thread title is a nod to the various Game/Setting: WTF? threads elsewhere on this site. Sell me on or Explain would've been better but this is[/i] therpgsite. And I'm fighting a cold. I don't actively dislike the books, I just got bored and didn't finish them. Didn't click at the time. But then again neither did Tekumel. And I do like some of Erick Wujcik's books. I need a click and a hook.

Harry Potter could be fun and a way to pitch the game.

What does diceless, in Amber's case in particular, offer over using dice, more than being different. Faster? More group something? Tactical, rules-lite, diceless, not free-form doesn't really add up to me. Chess without a board or pieces I'm having difficult visualizing. Is this like a Matrix game, VLB, or Kriegspiel?

General reply:
I've not read the Amber RPG aside from the previews available online and some reviews. The previews TOCs help some but that's about all the previews are.

Parallel universes can be cool, that's one thing I like about say Dr. Who and Tekumel. Firearms and magic cool as well. However it seems like Amber is

• very high powered - Does the game, if not the setting/books allow for non-members of the royal family? Would there be a point to playing such people? To put it another way how's the power range?
  
• mostly European Medieval - Is it mostly European Medieval or does it support going full gonzo and mixing time periods and culture on a whim? I'm not asking for full GURPS TL interaction and design systems.

Powers/Sorcery/Demons - potentially interesting but no idea how they fit/work in-game
Chargen - ok I see and somewhat get the auction bit, but what are characters like in Amber, all offshoots of the royal family? Any say servants or "normals"? Is there much difference both rules and backstory between characters? What happens if a player comes to me with a concept, can I model that or is chargen more random due to the bidding?

[Ian Absentia]

The setting for Amber is breathtakingly ambitious. It posits basically an infinity of parallel universes, wherein essentially anything you can imagine can be found.

Where all worlds but one are successively more pallid and deviating shadows of the one "true" world at the center of it all.  And in that one "true" world, everyone is white!

If that's not cool, I don't know what is.

Er, well... :mischief:

!i!

[ColonelHardisson]

Where all worlds but one are successively more pallid and deviating shadows of the one "true" world at the center of it all.  And in that one "true" world, everyone is white!Er, well... :mischief:

I never read anything beyond "The Courts of Chaos," but there's no reason to think that Amber really was the center of everything. If anything, it was furthest from where everything springs, and, even further, Amber where people lived was actually a shadow itself, of the Amber where there were no people at all.

Now that i think of it, though, are there actual physical descriptions of the entire Amber family that precludes any of them from being races other than white? I remember a lot of hair and eye color descriptions, but hell, at least one of the sisters had green hair...