Amber: WTF?

[GRIM]

The Pundit raves about Amber and it's a centerpiece of his anti-Swine tirades, which does not endear it to me.

That's what I don't get about Pundit.
Amber firmly ticks ALL the 'Swine' boxes. Yet he loves it, while decrying 'Swine' games for using similar techniques or giving the same RPG sacred cows the heave-ho.

It seems, to me, to be a very hypocritical position.

Personally I found it largely unplayable (mind you, I always prefer to GM) for many of the same reasons Pundit gives for criticising 'Swine' games, most of which I've had more success with. (Not that I fit into either camp particularly).

*baffled*

[Anthrobot]

Having read both the books and the game, which I am ashamed to say I own a copy of, I'll be interested to hear what I've been missing since day one-because as far as I can tell the answer to the above question is: nothing.

Isn't the Amber background a bit nastier than the flowery Nobilis one?:confused:

[The Yann Waters]

Isn't the Amber background a bit nastier than the flowery Nobilis one?:confused:

Well, just a few things off the top of my head... In Nobilis, the Earth was driven insane by the extinction of the dinosaurs so that even in the present day everyone in the world lives unknowingly in her delusions, the Moon attempts in vain to forget the murder of her children and teeters ever closer to suicide, and night exists because the Sun was raped thousands of years ago (not to mention that the only man she has ever loved burns forever in her heart, unable to die). Also, certain starry-eyed strangers from beyond time and space claim that the Creator doomed everyone in the universe by making it finite, and that the right thing to do is to put the whole thing out of its misery now and take all the dismantled fragments of existence into the eternity outside. And since the sheer scale of power involved renders most physical assaults useless, the most efficient method of attacking someone consists of finding out what they care about and then violating it in the worst ways imaginable.

[Otha]

Isn't the Amber background a bit nastier than the flowery Nobilis one?:confused:

WHAT??

Oh, my GOD, no.

Let's see:

In the Nobilis background, the Universe is run by Lord Entropy, who's as close to Satan as makes no difference.

For Powers, Love is an offense punishable by death.  

(as has already been pointed out) Nearly every single human being on Earth is delusional, and anyone who breaks free of their delusions is considered insane.

If you don't like Lord Entropy, his enemies are out to not only destroy the Universe but make it Never Have Been.

There may be Amber games out there that are nastier than this one but I've never seen one.

[The Yann Waters]

In the Nobilis background, the Universe is run by Lord Entropy, who's as close to Satan as makes no difference.

Strictly speaking, Entropy rules no other worlds apart from the Earth; but he does have considerable influence elsewhere as well, due to the prophecy which states that he may redeem himself by saving Creation in the last battle on the day of Ragnarok (unless he betrays everyone and joins the armies of nothingness). The entire universe really has no single being in charge, with the possible exception of the Creator who might be just a fairytale which the angels keep telling to themselves for their own comfort.

[RPGPundit]

That's what I don't get about Pundit.
Amber firmly ticks ALL the 'Swine' boxes. Yet he loves it, while decrying 'Swine' games for using similar techniques or giving the same RPG sacred cows the heave-ho.

It seems, to me, to be a very hypocritical position.

Personally I found it largely unplayable (mind you, I always prefer to GM) for many of the same reasons Pundit gives for criticising 'Swine' games, most of which I've had more success with. (Not that I fit into either camp particularly).

*baffled*

No, Amber does everything that Swine games often CLAIM to do but fail miserably at, while showing none of the pretentiousness that Swine games use to cover up said failure.

RPGPundit

[Otha]

So your objection isn't to what "swine" games try to do, but rather the methods they use?

Can you be more specific, perhaps open another topic?  This is a fascinating position and I'd like to hear more about it.

[Anthrobot]

Well, just a few things off the top of my head... In Nobilis, the Earth was driven insane by the extinction of the dinosaurs so that even in the present day everyone in the world lives unknowingly in her delusions, the Moon attempts in vain to forget the murder of her children and teeters ever closer to suicide, and night exists because the Sun was raped thousands of years ago (not to mention that the only man she has ever loved burns forever in her heart, unable to die). Also, certain starry-eyed strangers from beyond time and space claim that the Creator doomed everyone in the universe by making it finite, and that the right thing to do is to put the whole thing out of its misery now and take all the dismantled fragments of existence into the eternity outside. And since the sheer scale of power involved renders most physical assaults useless, the most efficient method of attacking someone consists of finding out what they care about and then violating it in the worst ways imaginable.

I meant nasty in play, not in some poncey background, like a Glastonbury earthmother's bad acid limp lettucelike nightmare! Nasty in plotting your enemies downfall and stabbing your former allies in the back.That sort of thing.As for background, did I mention that Oberon, former king of Amber was a rapist and that the whole lot of Amberites are manipulative in the extreme (except perhaps Gerard..and I'm not sure about that character!). See, not an ounce of romantic twaddle in the Amber game!
Nobilis sounds like a romantic 14 year old girl's turgid attempt at a fantasy RPG.
Amber is the kind of fantasy RPG that Machiavellian bastards play.Nobilis seems like the kind of game flouncing poodles who have sniffed too many wild flowers play.

[The Yann Waters]

I meant nasty in play, not in some poncey way, like a Glastonbury earthmother's bad acid limp lettucelike nightmare!

As said, the most effective way of harming someone in the game is ruining their lives by going after what matters to them: if that's what you want, there's power in introducing your enemy's impressionable sister to the seedier side of the city, converting her slowly into a caricature of a crack whore, and framing his most trusted friend for the whole thing. Or you could simply serve the Dark and make it your mission in life to discreetly convince others to destroy themselves by showing them the worthlessness of their existence and the dignity of choosing their own fate. And of course, the game is set in a world where justice has already failed, and the accused are always presumed guilty and sometimes executed before the trial unless they can prove their innocence: the universe is unfair, all souls are damned, and you'll need to keep your wits about you to even survive.

[GRIM]

No, Amber does everything that Swine games often CLAIM to do but fail miserably at, while showing none of the pretentiousness that Swine games use to cover up said failure.

So its not the goals, or the techniques, or the approach, or the focus, or anything else but that you think they haven't done it WELL?

*even more baffled*

[hgjs]

Well, just a few things off the top of my head... In Nobilis, the Earth was driven insane by the extinction of the dinosaurs so that even in the present day everyone in the world lives unknowingly in her delusions, the Moon attempts in vain to forget the murder of her children and teeters ever closer to suicide, and night exists because the Sun was raped thousands of years ago (not to mention that the only man she has ever loved burns forever in her heart, unable to die). Also, certain starry-eyed strangers from beyond time and space claim that the Creator doomed everyone in the universe by making it finite, and that the right thing to do is to put the whole thing out of its misery now and take all the dismantled fragments of existence into the eternity outside. And since the sheer scale of power involved renders most physical assaults useless, the most efficient method of attacking someone consists of finding out what they care about and then violating it in the worst ways imaginable.

There is a fundamental difference in perception here.  To you that may seem tragic, but it strikes me as supremely silly.  "Powers are forbidden to love?"  Please -- how soap opera can you get?

You misrepresent things when you say "the Earth was driven insane."  Here's what the book actually says: up until then, there was still a fake reality (that normal people saw) and a real reality, but they looked the same.  It's just that the fake reality had its history edited to give mundane explanations to supernatural events.  (Sort of like sleepers in Mage: the Ascension.)  It's just that when an angel-on-probation destroyed the dinosaurs (because, I might add, he saw one pooping and it grossed him out), the difference was too great for fake reality to explain away, so from then on it started outright ignoring supernatural events.  (It was basically the equivalent of a huge, world-shaking vulgar spell in Mage.)

As for the bit about Excrucians, there's not too much scary about them.  Sure, they want to destroy everything -- big deal, that makes them space orcs.  Except the book makes a big point out of how pretty their eyes are, and the only example we see is slim and androgynously beautiful.  So I guess they're more like Dark Eldar than orcs, because they are teh sexay.

As said, the most effective way of harming someone in the game is ruining their lives by going after what matters to them

a.k.a. more soap opera drama.

In the Nobilis background, the Universe is run by Lord Entropy, who's as close to Satan as makes no difference.

Alright, that's like one valid dark bit about the setting--that Lord Entropy is a nasty guy, but a necessary evil for the defense of creation.  Unless, that is, he actually betrays the PCs' side, in which the setting stops being dark, and becomes Predictable Japanese Video Game RPG Plot Twist #17.

(as has already been pointed out) Nearly every single human being on Earth is delusional, and anyone who breaks free of their delusions is considered insane.

I suppose, in a "Mage: the Awakening" sort of way.

all souls are damned

Not true.  Virtually everyone reincarnates.  A special few (maybe one in a billion) go to heaven.  A larger number go to hell.

[hgjs]

the Moon attempts in vain to forget the murder of her children and teeters ever closer to suicide, and night exists because the Sun was raped thousands of years ago (not to mention that the only man she has ever loved burns forever in her heart, unable to die).

I can't read this without giggling.  I mean, come on.  It's so corny.

[James McMurray]

What I find oddest is that you don't all fall over yourselves loving the exact same type of stuff.

Oh, what's the world coming to?

[The Yann Waters]

"Powers are forbidden to love?"  Please -- how soap opera can you get?

That depends on the reasons behind the Windflower Law. Sure, there's the explanation given by Old Bloody-Hands himself ("therefore love is a lie, a weakness, and a contradiction"), but in addition to that I've gone with the notion that as a law which cannot be obeyed it might just as easily be tied to an ancient flower rite against Order. Inserting it into the workings of the society is part and parcel of what Entropy simply must do, in keeping with his nature.

You misrepresent things when you say "the Earth was driven insane."

"The Earth could not survive such a violation of its living spirit save by creating a 'reason' that such things happened -- by inventing meteors, and comets, and falling stars, and believing that they mattered. And since that time, there have been reasons for things happening the way they do." This prosaic view of reality came into being only when Za'afiel killed the dinosaurs, and it still persists because the Earth rationalizes the myths into something more readily acceptable. It's not "fake" as such, since the two perspectives are equally comprehensive and valid, but it does lose many of the nuances. On the other hand, it's safer and more predictable: in the Prosaic, you always know when the sun will set and that the shortcut you just took won't suddenly lead into last Thursday.

As for the bit about Excrucians, there's not too much scary about them.

Personally, I've always kept open the possibilities that the Excrucians really are the Gnostic saviours which they claim to be, that the Creator is malevolent beyond belief and that Creation itself is a doomsday weapon against the Lands Beyond and all of existence.

a.k.a. more soap opera drama.

If you want to call it that, why not? As long as you realize that any attempt to, say, extol the virtues of Amber can be dismissed every bit as glibly as family drama, of course.

Alright, that's like one valid dark bit about the setting--that Lord Entropy is a nasty guy, but a necessary evil for the defense of creation.  Unless, that is, he actually betrays the PCs' side, in which the setting stops being dark, and becomes Predictable Japanese Video Game RPG Plot Twist #17.

My preferred take on the matter: he will defend Yggdrasil against the Excrucians at the end of the age, but even afterwards he will inevitably continue to corrupt and erode Creation until it finally collapses. That's just the way the universe works, and Entropy really is a necessary monster.

Not quite. Virtually everyone reincarnates.  A special few (maybe one in a billion) go to heaven.  A larger number go to hell.

Everyone reincarnates until they ultimately are either destroyed utterly or end up in Hell (or, in the case of about one soul out of a billion, are accepted into Heaven). The humanity of the souls alone is enough to weigh them downwards. For the vast majority, there's no hope of any happiness in the afterlife.

[The Yann Waters]

I can't read this without giggling.  I mean, come on.  It's so corny.

I prefer "mythic", but eh, there's no accounting for taste.