[Amber] Spell Decay

[RTrimmer]

It might be fairest to use the time it takes to actually say the lynchpins as the time it takes to fire off the spell.

Frex: Mind Touch: Conan (or that guy that you're glaring at), Hyboria, Shadizar. Duration: One minute. Dispel word: Gack. 2-2.75 seconds.

Pressurized Lava: shadow Castravalva (or This One Dammit because Some Shadow Between Earth And Amber probably won't work), Hand Motions (gestures are used to specify the location of the opening, and the tilt of the hands show the angle through which the lava will exit) half a sec?, Size of Lava Chunk Ten Stone, Trigger Go!. 2.25 seconds.
(Though shouldn't there also be location of pressurized lava Yellowstone in x shadow Earth? Or Locate Pressurized Lava and more time if that search isn't instantaneous?)

[jibbajibba]

It might be fairest to use the time it takes to actually say the lynchpins as the time it takes to fire off the spell.

I would agree.

Generally the lynchpins I would set would be

Offensive spells
Target
Shadow - on the basis that they need to be flexible and I insist magic in each shadow needs to be tweaked.

There will also be versions of the spell where the shadow lynchpin is already so one for Amber, one for Shadow Earth if its a popular shadow in the game etc.

Defensive spells will have 3 versions the standard with lynchin Shadow, that targets oneself. Specific with no lynchpins tied to a known shadow and Shadow and target to help others (as if ...)

Outside combat you don't need speed so you add more lynchpins for flexibility.
However I usually have a teleport spell for sell to a known shadow with 2 versions one tied to Amber - no lynchpins and one with the shadow lynchpin.

It is veryt advantageous for Sorcerers to have an item that can rack and use name and numbered spells as this device can then take care of your primary defense magic autotomously.

If I am using a partial power system, which is always when I GM, then lynchpins are an extra partial power and I have had players that extend it to a flavour of advanced Sorcery where lynchpins can be triggered by others unknowingly , thus creating traps, or even lynchpins can be thought rather than vocalised.

Sorcery is by far the most flexible power in the game, so you ether make it weak (the rule book's intended approach but I don't think it's actual achievement) or you increase the price, which is why I tend to push up its cost and make it more of a pain to run. Basically I want those who user sorcery to be primarily sorcerers and to get away from the core rules where sorcery is a cheap add on a lot of PCs take whatever their background. I felt that was not in the spirit of the books.

So use of magic has a 10 point buy in. They you can take base sorcery or base conjuration (5 each). Then each of the 4 micro spells costs 5 as does lynchpins. Tying sorcery to a major power costs 5. so if you wanted a standard sorcerer in my game you will be paying 10+5+(4x5) +5 = 40 if you wanted to hang spells on the pattern or Logrus +5 etc etc ...

[noman]

Thanks for the feedback RT, Jibba.  

When I ran Amber back in the day, I just assumed lynchpins took a few seconds to cast.  But I've been revisiting Amber and the Amber rules.  I'm ashamed to admit I'm picking up on things I missed before.  Sorcery casting times is one of them.

Look at the casting times for basic spells.  One or two hours to cast and five to ten minutes for each lynchpin.  The rulebook never says anything about these times being only for racking a spell.  Even if it does, that doesn't make any sense.  Character's cast spells into spell containers in order to rack them.

Look at the various examples of Mandor in Shadow Knight.  Most of those versions give him special powers that explain how he's able to cast a spell with a word or gesture.

Driving me crazy.

So if I want to cast lightning bolt with two lynchpins (direction of conductive channel and magic of shadow), I'll fire that spell off after 20 minutes.  Hanged spell.  20 minutes.

I can't find anything in Amber or Shadow Knight that challenges this interpretation.

If you look at LoO, Pundit solves this problem by tossing the Amber sorcery system and replacing it with other magical powers.  If you look at LoG&S, they kept the Amber sorcery system, including slightly modifed casting times.  As with Amber, I didn't find anything that challenged the assumption that casting times were 5+ minutes.

I want to keep my sorcery system as close to the rules as possible.  The only real problem I have is lynchpin casting time.  So I've got a couple of options...

A) Drop the lynchpin time to 1 or 2 minutes.
B) Drop lynchpins altogether.
C) Use another system.
D) Pretend the issue doesn't exist.
E) Ragequit and run EABA.

I actually like the idea of casting times beyond a few words.  The reason for this is I don't assume a lynchpin (target) translates directly from the common language (Thari, English, etc.) to the language magic uses.  Speaking the lynchpin for targeting noman may not be as simple as saying my name - maybe it requires a more complex series of words or gestures because the language specifically used in magic is fundamental more complex.

Don't know.  Very frustrating.

[jibbajibba]

Thanks for the feedback RT, Jibba.  

When I ran Amber back in the day, I just assumed lynchpins took a few seconds to cast.  But I've been revisiting Amber and the Amber rules.  I'm ashamed to admit I'm picking up on things I missed before.  Sorcery casting times is one of them.

Look at the casting times for basic spells.  One or two hours to cast and five to ten minutes for each lynchpin.  The rulebook never says anything about these times being only for racking a spell.  Even if it does, that doesn't make any sense.  Character's cast spells into spell containers in order to rack them.

Look at the various examples of Mandor in Shadow Knight.  Most of those versions give him special powers that explain how he's able to cast a spell with a word or gesture.

Driving me crazy.

So if I want to cast lightning bolt with two lynchpins (direction of conductive channel and magic of shadow), I'll fire that spell off after 20 minutes.  Hanged spell.  20 minutes.

I can't find anything in Amber or Shadow Knight that challenges this interpretation.

If you look at LoO, Pundit solves this problem by tossing the Amber sorcery system and replacing it with other magical powers.  If you look at LoG&S, they kept the Amber sorcery system, including slightly modifed casting times.  As with Amber, I didn't find anything that challenged the assumption that casting times were 5+ minutes.

I want to keep my sorcery system as close to the rules as possible.  The only real problem I have is lynchpin casting time.  So I've got a couple of options...

A) Drop the lynchpin time to 1 or 2 minutes.
B) Drop lynchpins altogether.
C) Use another system.
D) Pretend the issue doesn't exist.
E) Ragequit and run EABA.

I actually like the idea of casting times beyond a few words.  The reason for this is I don't assume a lynchpin (target) translates directly from the common language (Thari, English, etc.) to the language magic uses.  Speaking the lynchpin for targeting noman may not be as simple as saying my name - maybe it requires a more complex series of words or gestures because the language specifically used in magic is fundamental more complex.

Don't know.  Very frustrating.

The point is when you hang a spell you are casting it. That is the casting the spell is then cast held in its web of magical energy until the last word is uttered.
You don't cast the spell again because its done you just need to drop in the lynchpin and it triggers.

Look at Merlin as he prepares to attack the Keep of the 4 worlds. He preps up his spells gets it all hung then goes off to fight chucking the spells well at the speed of spells

So don't worry about the rulebook worry about the fiction its trying to emulate. Making a lynchpin utterance take a second or a half second doesn't change anyhting else so its trivial to change.

I am sure there is somethign in the rule book though perhaps int eh speed of combat section so Strength beats Warfare beats power words/lynchpins beats physic assault or something.

[RTrimmer]

One or two seconds is a long time if a skilled fighter is in range.

[Croaker]

I'm with Jibbajiba on this one.

The times in the book are for casting a spell. This is increased if you want to leave "holes" to be completed later - lynchpins -.

When the casting is done, either the spell is released, or you can hang it.

If hung, to release it, you need some trigger (a word and/or gesture will do), plus additionnal time for lynchpins, which each adding a few seconds.

Exemple 01: You know you're gonna cast a lightning bolt spell on merlin on shadow earth. You cast your spell, hung it, and, when facing merlin, release it using your trigger word "cowabunga". A fast enough combattant may skewer you before you do, though.

Exemple 02: You want a generic lightning spell. You need your trigger ("cowabunga"), plus a "target" lynchpin (say, the bolt's direction is determined by your hands, meaning you use warfare to hit, whereas someone's true name would mean autohit), and to know the magic of the shadow (so arcane words describing it, or number, or whatever).

One or two seconds is a long time if a skilled fighter is in range.

Which is good. Not only is sorcery potentially powerful enough as it is, but this emulates finely genre fiction.

[noman]

@ Panjumanju and anybody else like me who has questions regarding lynchpin casting times...

RT, Jibba, and Croaker seem to be right about this.

My question on the LoG&S forums...

The sorcery rules for both AmberDRPG and LoG&S list the casting times for lynchpins at five to ten minutes. Is this the amount of time it takes to cast a lynchpin for a spell that's already racked, or is this the amount of time it takes to cast a spell into a container - and triggering the lynchpins only takes a few words?

Jason's answer...

You have the way of it. It's a word or a gesture.

Creating/casting/designing the spell takes time. Like loading a gun. Pulling the trigger (saying a lynchpin) is nearly instantaneous.

Between Jason's answer and the opinions of RT, Jibba, and Croaker who know a lot more about this game than I do, I will take this as canon and consider the matter closed.

Except...

Don't make no sense to noman.

I still contend that this interpretation isn't anywhere in the ADRPG rulebook.  It also doen't make sense to my feeble noman brain that you spend five to ten minutes casting a lynchpin for a spell, but withhold a few parts of that lynchpin to be used later on a lynchpin you've already cast - it's like using lynchpins to cast lynchpins to cast a spell.

Am I the only one who sees it this way, or am I just being crazy-stupid?

Anyhoo...thanks to everybody to the input.  It gave me a lot to think about.

Now I've gotta go back and rewrite my house rules for sorcery.  

[RTrimmer]

The explanations of how sorcery works in the novels are inconsistent.

Erick Wujcik's translation to RPG terms is not his best work.

Many, many people want sorcerers in ADRPG to be the living artillery they are in most other RPGs.
 
The Corwin books are not about a bunch of wizards tossing spells at each other; magic doesn't amount to much in them.
 
The Merlin books start off the same but change as Merlin gets a spikard and becomes a living, nigh-unlimited WMD. With a pet genie.
 
If you are trying for the feel of the Corwin books the magic has to be toned the f**k down. If not, not -- but 15 points for living artillery?

I have to agree with Mike Sullivan, the ADRPG powers are badly priced.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?557693-Alternate-Amber-Settings/page2

[noman]

RT,

Thanks for the link.  I agree with what you wrote above.

I'm rewriting my house rules.  In dealing with sorcery, I'm looking to strike a balance between the Corwin Chronicles and the Merlin Chronicles.  I want sorcery to be a usable tool that doesn't have the raw power of the major powers, but has more versatility.  At the same time, I want to build in inherent weaknesses in order to maintain game balance and keep the munchkins in check.

Sorcery can be incredibly powerful, especially if you combine it with other powers, but it's got three major drawbacks.

1) Magic is at the bottom of the Amber Power Foodchain.  My campaigns tend to reflect this.  Magic just isn't going to be very effective when used directly against any of the other powers.

2) Spell decay and maintenance.

3) Casting time.  But triggering lynchpins in a few words negates this handicap.

Ignoring my earlier objections to canon lynchpins, I want casting (stored) spells to take time.  I don't want it to take the same amount of time it takes to use a power word or swing a sword.  On the other hand, I want my players to be able to cast spells in less time it takes me to prepare and eat a sandwich.

As you said, I don't want sorcery to be living artillery like it is in other games.  I've always seen sorcery as a power that requires careful planning and forethought.

Have to think about this.

As for power costs, I agree.  My solution to this problem was to trash the Amber point cost system and come up with a different point system based on dynamic values.  Worked well in my last campaign despite being a little buggy.

[Doughdee222]

Okay, I've read what Mike Sullivan has to say. I about half agree with him. Yes, the Powers are badly priced but I think he goes too far.

Pattern should probably be 40 or 45, IMHO. But then I'd also tone it down some, for example reducing or removing the "changing the odds" stuff. I don't see why having Pattern means you could manipulate every poker hand so you can win. And the whole "I look for a lost wallet/treasure chest behind this tree." "Hey, you find one!" is silly to me. I can't recall, is there even one scene in the books where that happens?

As I've mentioned before I think Shape Shifting should have a cheaper "Partial Power" level that allows Logrus use and basic Chaos survival. 5 or 10 points.

(I disagree with him about Conjuration. 20 is about right to me. With creativity and time Conjuration can be very useful, or so it seems to me.)

As I've said before Sorcery should be upped to 30 (or give it an Advanced level) and lengthen or remove the spell decay and reduce the onerous prepping/racking times.

Don't forget, noman, that Sorcery has a 4th major disadvantage: In at least half the shadows it either won't work at all (no mana worlds) or at a reduced level (low mana worlds.) Of course, in some places it will be extra potent (high mana worlds.)
Plus, it is easy to disrupt, by taking damage or use of Power Words. And if a character is tied up or gagged or arms are broken then Sorcery may not be usable. And if the target has a Pattern shield up or Logrus tentacles going then any effect may be reduced or nullified. (Even Gandalf was nearly powerless before Saruman when he was captured and his staff was taken away.)

A GM has to decide how powerful Sorcery spells are or can get. In AD&D a Fireball spell could expand to (I forget...) 30 feet? 40 feet? A single spell could take out a squad of guys. But in GURPS it will hit one guy, one door, whatever, and may not even kill him.

I agree about not wanting the character to be "living artillery." Although some extra offensive capability is good. Mostly I like Sorcery for the versatility of it. Need to fly? Turn invisible? Tunnel through ground or stone? Levitate a ton or two? Detect something? Talk to an animal? Etc... Rack up the spell.

[Evermasterx]

I don't see why having Pattern means you could manipulate every poker hand so you can win. And the whole "I look for a lost wallet/treasure chest behind this tree." "Hey, you find one!" is silly to me. I can't recall, is there even one scene in the books where that happens?

My explanation is that you can shift to an infinitesimal adjacent shadow where everything is the same BUT you have a poker. And if you change too much, too fast you can shift in a shadow where something (or someone) else is different...

[RTrimmer]

There are a lot of campaigns where the gm rules that basic Pattern is free or half price. Sort of like having the Atts start at 'Amber'. YMMV.

When Corwin needs to pay for guns and special ammo he takes a day or two and shifts shadow to a place where he can find raw diamonds lying on a beach. (Which, I seem to recall reading, actually happened with some explorers in Namibia.) So, yes and no. In my games, PCs could shift shadow a bit and find a wallet -- easy to visualize and people lose wallets all the time -- with currency in it IF they know what money looks like in the place they want to spend it in. Credit cards and ID, OK. Knowing the codes and ins and outs of using credit cards, not so much. ("I shift to the place where I know the password": tell me how you visualize that.)

Poker: you have to walk around to shift probability. A couple of hands in and they get suspicious. Also,  you don't want witnesses: "He used the Pattern to cheat at cards with mortals! What a pathetic tool!"

Conjuration gets out of hand when the gm lets it apply to 4 point or higher effects, when he ignores the time for making conjured items permanent and travel-resistant (or reduces it), or allows the multipliers to apply. (Mass-producing Excalibur --- no. Conjuring up a horde of zombies from a battlefield -- maybe.)

Pattern should probably be 40 or 45, IMHO. But then I'd also tone it down some, for example reducing or removing the "changing the odds" stuff. I don't see why having Pattern means you could manipulate every poker hand so you can win. And the whole "I look for a lost wallet/treasure chest behind this tree." "Hey, you find one!" is silly to me. I can't recall, is there even one scene in the books where that happens?

(I disagree with him about Conjuration. 20 is about right to me. With creativity and time Conjuration can be very useful, or so it seems to me.)

[noman]

Okay, what do you guys think about this...

[notes for sorcery house rules]

Sorcery works as described in the rules.  Ignore power cost issues.  I use a different point system and other folks can modify point costs to taste.

Sorcery can be really powerful, especially when you combine it with powers.  It lends itself to abuse.  A few liabilities should be hardwired into the power:

1) Magic is at the bottom of the Amber Power Foodchain.  My campaigns tend to reflect this.  Magic just isn't going to be very effective when used directly against any of the other powers.

2) Magic will only work where magic is part of the shadow's reality.  It will be weak in shadows with limited magic, and it will not work in shadows where there is no magic.  (Thanks Doughdee).

3) Spell decay and maintenance.

4) Casting time.

Point 4 is where I have trouble.  Using canon rules this handicap doesn't exist.  Canon rules have long spell preparation with immediate deployment (1-2 hours to cast/prepare a spell, but only a few words to trigger the spell).

I've decided I want sorcerers to have less-than-immediate casting times when deploying a spell.  This would put a major handicap into sorcery and limit it's abuse somewhat.  What I've come up with is this:

Sorcery casting times. I've reduced the base casting time for spells and lynchpins in an attempt to make sorcery usable while refining the time management handicaps suggested in ADRPG.  Lynchpins are withheld from spells in full until the spell is cast.
* 15 minutes for each micro-spell used (cumulative).
* 5 seconds for each lynchpin used (cumulative).

There are no lynchpins for lynchpins.  You cast a spell, rack it, and withhold the full lynchpins you need for later.  To trigger the spell, you cast the lynchpins.  This can take 5-20 seconds depending on the complexity of the spell.

Using this system, Lightning Bolt would take 30 minutes to cast.  It would take 10 seconds per lynchpin used to trigger from a spell storage device.

A few other house rules to better put this in context...

Spell Decay:  Spells decay is mentioned in ADRPG (p. 60)  and LoG&S (p. 40-41, p. 41).  I've detailed guidelines for spell decay below.
* Spells held in the mind of the caster will last for only so long as the caster concentrates on  
  the spell, until his concentration is lost, or he is rendered unconscious.
* Spells cast into the logrus by logrus masters will decay after 24 hours.
* Spells cast into devices capable of holding spells decay after 72 hours.

Spell & Lynchpin Modification.  A stored spell may be replaced in the field by casting another spell onto that stored spell.  This takes the normal casting time.  More importantly, the lynchpins of a stored spell may be modified by the caster without recasting the entire spell.  This allows a sorcerer to easily adapt already stored spells for changing circumstances by modifying and refining a stored spell without needing to recast the entire spell.

This means if I move from shadow A to shadow B, I can adapt my lynchpins to that shadow without having to recast the whole spell.  It would take me about 1 minute and 10 seconds to adapt my lightning bolt spell assuming four lynchpins.

So a couple of things here...

5 seconds is a long time.  A sorcerer will get killed in close-combat.  Therefore, sorcery either (A) becomes more trouble than it's worth, (B) is used as a versatile toolkit of utility powers designed to support warfare, strength, or other powers, or (B) must be used with planning, care, and forethought if used as a primary offensive ability.

I think this usable if you plan on using sorcery as a utility power.  If you plan on using it as an offensive power (Merlin, Mandor, Fi, etc.), things get complicated.

So here's the thing.  I don't want sorcerers to be walking artillery that can unleash magical hell with a word or gesture.  I don't want Amber sorcery to be played like a FPS.  I want it to be played like chess or go.

Sorcery is powerful, and I tend to make it more so in my campaigns.  If a player wants to play a high psyche character with sorcery as his primary offensive tool, he or she is going to have to deal with the lynchpin casting times.  This means changing your mindset about how magic is used.  You can still be offensive, but you have to be subtle and indirect in the use of force.  This means sorcerers will need to design spells carefully, be proactive, and forward thinking, and try to control every situation in such a way as to ensure his or her spells have the advantage over everyone else.  You avoid physical fights, or set them up where your spells have the advantage.  You set up countermeasures for power words like magic or psychic disrupt.  You set traps, combine spells, lead enemies into range, etc.  Approached in this manner, I'd argue that sorcerers would be deadly.

This is just a prototype model.  I'd like to get your feedback on this.  Where are the flaws I missed, would you want to use this system as players, etc?

[Doughdee222]

(Which, I seem to recall reading, actually happened with some explorers in Namibia.)

Yes! National Geographic had an article a few years ago about the wreck of a Spanish merchant galley on a beach in SW Africa. The beach, now owned by De Beers company, I think, does have diamonds all over it. You could just walk among the dunes and fill up a bag with diamonds you find. A river washes them down from further inland. When the archeologists excavated the wreck they had to pass through a security hut and have everything examined (the whole area is fenced off and guarded.)

[Croaker]

I still contend that this interpretation isn't anywhere in the ADRPG rulebook.  It also doen't make sense to my feeble noman brain that you spend five to ten minutes casting a lynchpin for a spell, but withhold a few parts of that lynchpin to be used later on a lynchpin you've already cast - it's like using lynchpins to cast lynchpins to cast a spell.

This is strange, I really thought it was there.

Think of the spells and lynchpins as a clokwork engine, with some bits missing. THe spell won't work without these, with wheels spinning without touching other wheels, but once you insert the missing elements, it all works.

Like you've got ¤¤ ¤*¤ and you add a lynchpin and you get ¤¤*¤*¤.

So you need a little more time to make sure that your clockwork won't fall apart without these missing bits, won't work without them, and will work flawlessly with them.

Ignoring my earlier objections to canon lynchpins, I want casting (stored) spells to take time.  I don't want it to take the same amount of time it takes to use a power word or swing a sword.  On the other hand, I want my players to be able to cast spells in less time it takes me to prepare and eat a sandwich.

The basics, as far as I understand them, is that a spell takes, to release, about the same time as a Power Word.. + about 1-2 power word by lynchpin.

So, a spell using "Shadow Magic" and "Direction of Blast" would take about the same time as 5 power words/sword swings. Way enough to get you killed.

In my new rules, I have various casting methods/time for sorcery. If it requires total concentration, even a simple human can stop you. If you're a master sorcerer, you can do it while defending yourself, but your warfare will be reduced while casting, which may get you killed.

Of course, now, we run into the problem of Items that cast spells...