[Amber] So, what're you wearing?

[Panjumanju]

One of my players asked why Bleys was spotted over Corwin's body after the amnesia-causing car crash, wondering why the reports said "dressed like Robin Hood" - if he pattern walked into the shadow, wouldn't his clothes change like the car when Corwin and Random were driving?

My answer was that Bleys used trump to get in, and trump does not have the advantages of subtle shadow manipulation to the self. It sounded good at the time. Goodness knows if that can be supported.

It's interesting to me the idea of individual appearance when one emerges onto different shadow. What happens to your sword when pattern walking into a high technology shadow? Does it become a gun? A gun-sword? I am willing to say that magical artefacts maintain their shape...or are they more likely to alter their appearance? (And should that change function?)

I think the mechanics of Amber Diceless can support a decision in just about every direction on this matter, but I am interested to know how some GMs have dealt with this in the past.

//Panjumanju

[Arref]

My answer was that Bleys used trump to get in, and trump does not have the advantages of subtle shadow manipulation to the self. It sounded good at the time. Goodness knows if that can be supported.

It's interesting to me the idea of individual appearance when one emerges onto different shadow. What happens to your sword when pattern walking into a high technology shadow? Does it become a gun? A gun-sword? I am willing to say that magical artefacts maintain their shape...or are they more likely to alter their appearance? (And should that change function?)

There are three broad answers and probably a lot of special cases. Doesn't that sound like Zelazny?

First, your answer above conveys exactly how I would answer in my campaign. Pattern transitions usually include safe, adaptive, and culturally blended tweaks of shadow.

Trump transitions do not. Trump connects two places and times in ways that are not blended.

Second, moving to a shadow where your gun doesn't exist.... well, it doesn't exist. It may become a dagger, but it depends on cultural clues mostly centered around who are YOU when you arrive? Are you arriving in a society where any adult female has a weapon? Well, then certainly you have a dagger.  Maybe a sword, but it depends on the mindset of the PC arriving and something on the culture mindset.

Third, if your sword has a story, if it is real, and perhaps a quality sword that you have had for years, well, it might vanish...or become a dagger...or it might become a katana. Mostly that depends on the PC and what they are doing in the place they arrive.

Stealthy arrival? Scouting? Maybe the sword is not there at all.
Normal arrival? Hoping for friendly locals? Maybe the sword is a dagger now.
High tech shadow? Maybe the sword is a taser now.

But what if you are not planning on being in this shadow for long? You need to see something...or ask someone a question...and then move along to the next point on your agenda.

Well, your trusty sword might stay a sword in fact, changing not one bit.

[Artifacts of Amber]

That is one part of the books / Canon that I do not follow is the personal things shifting. So unfortunately the car and the growth of hair (which happened to Corwin or random during the ride) and change of clothes just doesn't occur. I guess I never liked the idea and can't give you a good reason why.

So I honestly don't have to deal with it, which doesn't help you at all so If I did run with that, Arref's answer pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. It would depend a lot on how you were traveling Hellride, Royal way or just walking.  Just like the Emerging from shadow thread each would have a unique answer.

Mainly because the Royal way would be a shift that best fits the shadow and the shadow to the Person. Meaning my woodsy hunter would royal walk through shadows that the uptight/etiquette Nazi may not. Since they both think their way is best for them.

Shadow walk is slow enough things would just shift to fit the shadow and not as much the person.

Hellrides are too fast and furious to shift as much. unless part of the hellride focus is to fit in then chances are they won't necessarily.


Just my thoughts.

[jibbajibba]

the trump answer is good.
The truth of it is that Pattern users can alter their clothes and equipment if they choose to do so.

Your appearance does not alter as you travel through shadow you have to alter your appearance as you travel through shadow. Sometimes you want to pass unseen, sometimes you don;t give a shit. Mostly the latter because the result of not doing it is someone reports a unit of Roman soldiers marching through Central Park one night...and thus are ghost stories formed....

[Jason D]

Sometimes you want to pass unseen, sometimes you don;t give a shit. Mostly the latter because the result of not doing it is someone reports a unit of Roman soldiers marching through Central Park one night...and thus are ghost stories formed....

So then is LARPing a Shadow's ripple response to such intrusion?

Benedict marches his centurions through Shadow Earth's Central Park, and a week later, a newly-formed LARP group forms with emphasis on the Roman era?

[Doughdee222]

I have yet to GM an Amber game but I'll toss in a couple of coppers:

As you say, one could wing it just about any way that feels right. Changing clothes "to stay in fashion" or look inconspicuous across shadows would be fine with me. Much the same as language issues would be waved in the name of game play.

The exception I would make is with important items such as weapons and armor. Unless it is specifically created or bought with shape shifting abilities a sword should stay a sword. Same length, class, design, etc. Platemail armor should remain platemail, chainmail remains chainmail etc.

This does cause problems with characters traveling to "modern" or "high tech" shadows. Just try hailing a cab in New York City while wearing silver plate chest piece and carrying a 2H-sword. But, that's the breaks.

It's the same problem as what do you do with your mount in the modern world. Horses were high status possessions until less than a hundred years ago (perhaps still are in some places.) But in the industrialized sections of the world they are, awkward.

The problem with saying your sword turns into a taser is... I just don't think most would want it to. A taser is useful, no doubt, but if someone, with some skill, attacks you with a bigger weapon they are nearly useless. Try parrying a spear, or a halberd, or a warhammer with a taser (either the hand zapper or the kind that shoots the wired darts.) Tough to do I'd think. You'd much rather have your original scimitar!

If players intend to spend a lotta time in such environments and they are concerned about their favorite weapons, I'd suggest to them to add a shape shifting ability to their tool. At least a 1 point size shift: "This letter opener is more than it seems!"

Otherwise, grin and bear the comments of people who wonder why you have a broadsword strapped to your back.

[Croaker]

Yup.

I don't see your clothes and possessions changing unless you want it to, and I don't think real items (paid for by points) change at all.

When Julian chases Corwin and Random, the car changes, but neither the hounds, julian's armor or morgenstern do.
Likewise, as far as I can tell, Grayswandir neither becomes a dagger, a gun or even a different type of sword.

[Panjumanju]

Yup.

I don't see your clothes and possessions changing unless you want it to, and I don't think real items (paid for by points) change at all.

When Julian chases Corwin and Random, the car changes, but neither the hounds, julian's armor or morgenstern do.
Likewise, as far as I can tell, Grayswandir neither becomes a dagger, a gun or even a different type of sword.

You're right, but Corwin's clothes change without him wanting them to. If we can chalk this up to his amnesia (he was unconsciously changing them?) I don't know. But he was certainly changing without consent.

The fact that Julian does not perhaps is a good strike towards the arguments that magical weapons and armour should not change.

//Panjumanju

[daniel_ream]

You're right, but Corwin's clothes change without him wanting them to. If we can chalk this up to his amnesia (he was unconsciously changing them?) I don't know. But he was certainly changing without consent.

There are several points in TCoA where it's clear that the scions of Amber have specific clothing style and colours they prefer, and maintain wherever they go.

Given the context and the later events, I've always assumed that since Corwin wasn't the one Shadow shifting, and wasn't aware of what was going on, he simply didn't know how to keep his clothes in a form that appealed to him.

[jibbajibba]

You're right, but Corwin's clothes change without him wanting them to. If we can chalk this up to his amnesia (he was unconsciously changing them?) I don't know. But he was certainly changing without consent.

The fact that Julian does not perhaps is a good strike towards the arguments that magical weapons and armour should not change.

//Panjumanju

No Random changes corwin's clothes for him and even tells him so....

I don;t have the book to hand but corwin looks down at his clothes and sees they have changed and Random says something like "I took care of that".

I always took it as Random trying to impress Corwin to get into his good graces.

[RPGPundit]

No Random changes corwin's clothes for him and even tells him so....

I don;t have the book to hand but corwin looks down at his clothes and sees they have changed and Random says something like "I took care of that".

Again, though, this implies an active and intentional choice.  Its not something that just happens.

[Panjumanju]

Again, though, this implies an active and intentional choice.  Its not something that just happens.

It's a good point, though - it does have to be an intentional choice.

Now, does it have to be intentional on the pattern walker, or just on the follower of the pattern walker? (Or am I splitting hairs, here?) My point is - Corwin leads an army through shadow. He's the pattern walker, his clothes are changing. The army following behind him is piggy-backing on the movement through shadow - they have no affinity with shadow, it would follow that their clothes would not change, unless Corwin is taking care of it.

It could be that Random has no choice but to change his clothes as he drove through shadows, but must intentionally choose to change Corwin's clothes.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

It's a good point, though - it does have to be an intentional choice.

Now, does it have to be intentional on the pattern walker, or just on the follower of the pattern walker? (Or am I splitting hairs, here?) My point is - Corwin leads an army through shadow. He's the pattern walker, his clothes are changing. The army following behind him is piggy-backing on the movement through shadow - they have no affinity with shadow, it would follow that their clothes would not change, unless Corwin is taking care of it.

It could be that Random has no choice but to change his clothes as he drove through shadows, but must intentionally choose to change Corwin's clothes.

//Panjumanju

Its choice. In teh environemnt you can change one thign that leads to other unforeseen changes but anychanges to the traveler in conscious

[Croaker]

Yup, I see it like this, too.

Especially as having the passenger need to choose implies that traveling through Shadow gives him the ability to mold shadow matter. This may see ok with an amberite, less so with a shadow army, who'd also need to be briefed beforehand ("Ok guy, you'll need to take care to wish for your spears to become guns. Here's what a gun look like. And, well, thereafter, don't forget to with your guns to become spears again")