What do your elders want from the younger generation?

[TonyLB]

Do they want their children to act in a way that reflects well on their parents in some particular way?

Do they want their children to act in a way that reflects well on the children?

Do they want their children to be happy?

Do they want to live out their dreams vicariously through their young?

Do they want to use the younger generation as pawns?

Do they want to hurt the younger generation in order to hurt their parents?

Do they want to keep the younger generation in line, lest (like Chronos being overcome by Zeus) they should be devoured by their own young?


This is not some general question of what "should" happen.  I really couldn't care less which things people think are wrong, and which they think are right.

I would, however, be very interested to hear specifics on what people have done in their own campaigns.

[Arref]

IMC:

Elders want a better relationship than they had with Oberon.
Most don't have the parental experience to do any better.
Oberon didn't have the inner mechanism to be a parent in a way that didn't involve his own (forbidden) culture.

Elders want a better set of choices for their kids.
In this, they realize that they can't hand their kids the best choices, they have to let the kids find choices that have meaning.

Elders are so old and far removed from being 'young' that they have a hard time having "light touch" communication with their kids. Communication varies between secretive (avoid mistakes and easy paths) and controlling (no, you will not borrow Merlin's spikard to solve this!)

Elders feel so ruined by their dysfunctional childhood that they have no intention of having children. Period.

Some Elders have the guts to try to have kids even though their first couple attempts are disasters.

[TonyLB]

Hey, Arref ... don't take this the wrong way, but ... those all sound more like things that the Elders want from themselves (as regards their children) than anything that they want from the children.  Does that sound about right?

Saying, for instance, "I want to be a better parent than Oberon" is a qualitatively different thing from saying "I want my son to respect me for what I've accomplished, not for the fear I instill."  In the first case, the elder can only disappoint himself.  In the second case, the child can disappoint him.

[TonyLB]

Heh.  I'm amused that I never even thought to include the following thing that the elders might want, until looking over the list much later:

Do they want their children to love them?

[Arref]

Hey, Arref ... don't take this the wrong way, but ... those all sound more like things that the Elders want from themselves (as regards their children) than anything that they want from the children.  Does that sound about right?

Saying, for instance, "I want to be a better parent than Oberon" is a qualitatively different thing from saying "I want my son to respect me for what I've accomplished, not for the fear I instill."  In the first case, the elder can only disappoint himself.  In the second case, the child can disappoint him.

I hope I'm not copping out when I respond that this depends on the Elder.

I agree with your distinction, in principle.

Imagine growing up where what you want from other people is constantly, inevitably beyond your control. You then frame things in terms of what you DO control.

My genre bias here is that Elders understand they are humanly flawed but don't have the answers to that.
Elders do want to be better than Oberon.
Elders don't want their kids to turn out with secret fears & parental conflicts.

Threats to Amber are bigger than imagined from the secret agendas of Oberon. There is more reason to have family pull together than ever.

As parents always seem to do, bigger issues get conflated into more intimate issues and pressure flows down to the kids who can't see the bigger issues.

And at some level, the Elders are smart enough to realize their kids won't do what they want them to do. Some Elders will still try, some will experiment, some will take the zen approach.

[TonyLB]

I hope I'm not copping out when I respond that this depends on the Elder.

Not at all.  Everything is specific.  That's why I ask in the context of what people have actually done, so that people can give me the "Well, Florimel wants her daughter, Melissa, to be a perfect little lady ... which is such a problem, since Melissa is a born tom-boy ... wow we had this one funny time when ..." stories.

Imagine growing up where what you want from other people is constantly, inevitably beyond your control. You then frame things in terms of what you DO control.

That makes perfect sense.  I come at it from the other angle simply because I like how NPCs who want specific things from the PCs help drive play.

[RPGPundit]

These are all very good questions; but the answers would each depend on the individual Elder, I would think.

Elders should never be too unidimensional, all of them have different levels of course.  Most of them, with a few possible exceptions, probably would want their kids to love them, the way pretty much every parent wants their kid to love them.  Of course, in the real world some parents are much better at bringing this about than others, and most parents have other desires for their kids ("I want my kid to be like me/think like me/believe what I believe", "I want my kid to do what I tell them", "I want my kid to be The Best", "I want my kid to become someone important", etc etc.; never mind fucked up shit like "I want my kid to make me rich and powerful", or "I want my kid to always have to depend on me", or "I want my kid to avenge all the wrongs I have suffered in life", or "I want to use my kid to satisfy my own perverted desires") that end up conflicting with that basic desire for their kid to love them.

I usually have an idea of which Amberite will be a really great parent no matter what their kids are, which will be a "conditionally good" parent depending on how/who their kids are, and which will usually be a fucked up/terrible parent.  Gerard usually falls into the first category, Fiona or Benedict into the second, and Julian or Brand almost always into the third.  Then there are some Amberites who will usually be pretty absent/irresponsible parents (Random, in most cases, sometimes Bleys or Corwin).

RPGPundit

[TonyLB]

These are all very good questions; but the answers would each depend on the individual Elder, I would think.

I think so too!  I'd love it if you picked an elder that you thought had particularly interesting desires, and tell me briefly what happened in that game.

[Arref]

I come at it from the other angle simply because I like how NPCs who want specific things from the PCs help drive play.

OK, then specific example.

Mmm. So many to choose from.

OK, Julian finds out he has a son after the boy is grown.

The boy has been hidden in a sultan's harem with the thirty other princesses that are his sisters. Why? Because the Sultana dallied with Julian in a moment of passion and the Holy Code of the Lawgiver says that her head is forfeit as well as her son for her transgression.

Because everyone in that shadow knows the Sultan is under a mighty curse to bear only daughters.

Enough backstory.

Julian rescues his son from the harem (where the boy has passed fourteen years as a girl) and sends the son to train with sword masters in a land more like Amber and less like Qatar. Julian does not say that he is disappointed in the way the boy's mother raised him or saved his life. Julian is, but he does not speak of this as the Sultana cannot be judged by Julian's standards and her plan did work.

The boy, Shapir, proves to be an apt student. He learns quickly. Almost quickly enough to be involved in the Patternfall war. But Julian does not have time to 'proof' Shapir's training. Too many other things are too important; the center seems to be unraveling. Julian is not going to put the boy in harm's way.

Shapir realizes he does not meet his father's expectations. He is also a loyal son of a harsh culture. He trains harder. The war ends. Julian tests the boy. He does not pass at first. Julian does not bring the boy to Amber.

There is another test next year. And the year beyond that. And finally after nine years, the young man passes Julian's tests. He is presented at Random's court in Amber.

I won't drub you with further details, but this pattern repeats often throughout the relationship between father and son. Julian has high standards. He wants Shapir to be among the best of Amber. Shapir continues to try and meet these expectations, even though it is almost always an imposing task.

As time passes, Shapir does become the best and brightest. A man others trust and look to as a paragon of what an Amber prince can be.

At the same time, Julian knows his son was ruined by his upbringing in subtle ways. Shapir is less than he could be. Immortality will give the young man a chance to ease the errors of the Sultana's decisions.

Julian never speaks of these faults, and has calm praise for Shapir when warranted. Father and son both have a passion for quiet excellence and do that every day. Then there are also the quiet regrets that are not spoken of. They both do this as well.

Related back to your original question:
Julian wants excellence from Shapir.
Shapir wants to give that gift to his father.
But actions taken before and after Shapir's birth are constraining how everything else is evaluated by the two men.

[TonyLB]

At the same time, Julian knows his son was ruined by his upbringing in subtle ways. Shapir is less than he could be.

Ouch!  Nice.

What did the player do that assured that Shapir failed Julian?  Was it a player choice (I could live up to his expectations, but something else is more important) or a player failing, or something else?

[Arref]

There are a lot of ways I could answer that. I'll try this one.

Shapir's choices (created by the Player) were to honor his mother and father. As such, he never walked away from what his mother had done, and never decided that it was a mistake.

This starts the basic split between father and son.

Julian agrees that the Sultana did as well as she could. But raising Shapir as a 'secret boy' in a harem formed Shapir's legend in ways that Julian cannot agree with.

Since Shapir will not dishonor his mother, he also does not regret his early life, and therefore he accepts the legend of being saved from death by living as a girl.

Shapir and Julian cannot both get everything they want in this.

[TonyLB]

Ah ... so Julian's goal is not simply that Shapir become strong, but that Shapir recognizes that his past is a source of weakness.

That one's slick ... that "I need you to recognize X as a weakness, because I want you to become strong."  I'm gonna use that one, no question.  Thanks!