Amber GM Maturity

[Panjumanju]

There has been some talk that GMs who run Amber are more mature in their gaming skills as a result. I think the main evidence to support this would be the notion that there is simply a lack of support in the Amber Diceless roleplaying system for anything else. The game gets run well, or it is a terrible game.

For some GMs this is not an issue, but many see the lack of 'safety net' in the rules as a gaping flaw in the system. At best I think it's a double-edged sword.

Thoughts?

//Panjumanju

[TristramEvans]

There has been some talk that GMs who run Amber are more mature in their gaming skills as a result.

lol. I think anyone who claimed that is lacking in maturity.

That said, I agree that GMing a freeform RPG of any kind is a different experience from GMing standard game systems and one could potentially identify or develope techniques that would be universally helpful. But it depends on the individual and has absolutely nothing to do with Amber specifically.

[finarvyn]

Labels can be good because they express a lot of ideas in a few words, but labels can also be bad because not everyone associates the same ideas with those words. I think that the hang-up here is the use of the word "mature" because the opposite of this becomes "immature" and has negative connotations. (E.g. "if you don't like ADRP you are immature.")

* Running ADRP requires a certain style of GM-ing that isn't required for most RPGs because in ADRP you can't just stall with random encounters.

* Running ADRP requires a certain level of trust between GM and players because so much of the rules is adjudicated on the fly by the GM and the players have to believe that they will be treated fairly and consistently.

* Running ADRP requires development of a storytelling skill-set at a level that most RPGs do not require. A GM can't resort to some of the usual tricks, but instead must continue to advance a storyline.

I don't know if that makes an ADRP GM more "mature" or not, but it does require mastery of certain skills at a more in-depth level than many other RPGs require.

Does that make sense?

[Artifacts of Amber]

I think it would be better said a good Amber GM has more maturity.

I am using the word maturity in the sense of a wine maturing to be the best it can not as much in the adult versus child sense of the scale. I think if someone runs Amber well they will run other games better than if they did not have that experience.

What It takes to go from an OK D&D Gm  to a great one is a different path then the same route from OK to Great in Amber.

I think the person who did it in Amber has a much gibber and useful skill set then the same skill set gained in D&D or other comparable games.

I also think it is not a path made for everyone. Not that Amber GM's are somehow special or magical just different. Percentage wise from my own personal experience I haven't had a Bad Amber GM. I have had one home town GM beside myself but went to Ambercon for 5 years so have played with a few others. This is all based of course on personal experience.

I think it does boil down to the incredibly loose framework Amber is hung on forces you to become better or just plain suck.

[Arref]

I also think it is not a path made for everyone. Not that Amber GM's are somehow special or magical just different. Percentage wise from my own personal experience I haven't had a Bad Amber GM. I have had one home town GM beside myself but went to Ambercon for 5 years so have played with a few others. This is all based of course on personal experience.

This is an interesting subject, but to answer it without debating terms is difficult.

I have had bad GMs or lackluster GMs run Amber Diceless games. This has even been at conventions where enthusiasts spend time and the general play is superior. There are more places in the Amber Diceless game where a GM might 'trip' or 'fall down' and lose the flow of the game.  I've tripped up while running myself.

The acquired skill sets for Amber diceless are some of the skills you might expect in older GMs, especially if they have other game systems 'under their belt'. These GMs come to understand that each system requires a slightly different style of play, or timing, or planning for an adventure. Improvisation is critical even if the Players stay on plot. Making educated guesses as to how a 'superior attribute' might play in narrative is essential. For instance, if you cannot explain fairly to a PC how they just got out-maneuvered by an elder, you will lose the Player trust.

In this way, a seasoned GM has advantage over a novice GM, and an Amber game often requires a lot of GM 'center stage' time.

In a sense, I agree with Pundit: refining your skills as a GM with Amber Diceless pushes you to be a better GM. In many RPGs, the universe does not require you deliver its narrative with verve or style or justice.

I believe the better Amber games require these things.

[RPGPundit]

If you don't like "mature", you could say "highly skilled".

[mAcular Chaotic]

A good Amber GM is by necessity a pretty good GM because they have to be to sink or swim in a system that doesn't hold their hand.

It's like if you had somebody become good at playing an instrument when nobody ever taught them anything about it before and they just self-taught. The only way you'd get good or overcome the lack of instruction is by being so great that it overcomes the handicap.

Or if you had a bike without training wheels.

[jibbajibba]

Good Amber GMs are Good Amber GMs.

There are a set of skills that Good Amber GMs have that are transferable but there is a set of useful GM skills that an Amber GM doesn't require.
A GM that is great at Amber might suck at a game that requires the ability to run a highly complex situationally dependent combat system like say M&M 2e or D&D 3.5.

Amber GMs are good at

i) NPC realisation - the game is 90% about how the NPCs are played and interact
ii) Trust - the Amber GM needs to engender trust from their players because so much of the game comes down to the GM's interpretation of the rules in any one context
iii) Adlib - as the PCs can go anywhere the GM has to be able to Adlib anything

However Amber GMs do not need to

i) Memorize a complex rule set
ii) Handle "concrete" complex combats where numbers matter and there are multiple specific options etc
iii) Understand the interaction of complex specific spells/tech effects etc
iv) deal with bad players

[mAcular Chaotic]

iv) deal with bad players

Why not?

[jibbajibba]

Why not?

Bad players don't play Amber obviously

[Arref]

Bad players don't play Amber obviously

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

[RPGPundit]

In my experience, bad players do play Amber, but not for long. They either figure out how to become good players, or they quit.

[mAcular Chaotic]

Bad in what sense? I have had similar experiences with bad players so I agree.

[Artifacts of Amber]

Bad probably in the sense of all the things you need to be a good player in Amber, Trusting, let the rules fall to the background, decent role playing etc.

I wouldn't say it was good or bad players so much as good or bad Amber players. It might be just me but a Good Amber Player is usually a Good everything player. That is from personal experience and may not be universally true.

Think of it in these terms

If you are an excellent Runner then chances you will be at least decent in many sports compared to someone who is an average athlete would not be as decent. So being an Amber player does not make you perfect or great at all games it is a leg up on the average player. Just my opinion as always

[jibbajibba]

Actually I was just aping the OP in a kind of circular way they claim no bad GMs so I claimed no bad players as a reason why a GM might appear good....

In reality the things that let you succeed as an Amber player are

i) Good Role playing - because Amber GMs tend to favour players that play PCs that "fit"

ii) Creative understanding of the rules system and ability to construct an argument as to why the interpretation you proffer is so eminently reasonable.
 
iii) A reasonably photographic memory of the novels. This will help you immeasurably in points i and ii above. If your PC does things that have an echo of characters in the books they fit better and the GM lets you get away with more.

iv) The ability to abuse the fuck out of the item generation system is incredibly useful, especially if you can do it in a way that seems so eminently reasonable. A 16 point primal chaos Axe is a chump move but a sword with Amber rank tactics, able to speak and Sing in Songs and Voices and mold shadow reality will cost you 12 points and be able to set all sorts of stuff for you by manipulating he shadow environment to give you advantage, turn ground to quicksand, vegetation into tangle vines, staircases to paper, even if the opponent doesn't have a magical blade turning that into something that will easily shatter or bend my personal favorite though was the spell cards.... each hard can rack a single spell cost 1 horde quantity .... cost 3. sweet and so very Amber.... I had to let the guy get away with it.

v) (oh and if you do use sorcery take note of all the stuff Mandor and Merlin do as they use it to replicate just about every other power )