Amber DRPG sans Zelazny

[Panjumanju]

There are certain aspects of the game that never seem to click right in my brain. ... Particularly in player-player conflict (as opposed to player-NPC). Not to say that I can't do it, but I wish I had a better guideline so as to be more "fair" every time.

Amber is not an easy game to run. It expects a high performance level from you every time, and I find it taxing sometimes.

I agree it can be quite the thing deciding where and when the 'axe should fall' - for me it's especially true concerning character death. And there's no real time to muddle it over. RPGs with dice at least offer a moment to think.

But, I find the potential for ambiguity in the Amber rules ultimately brings out more great things than trouble it causes.

//Panjumanju

[finarvyn]

Amber is not an easy game to run. It expects a high performance level from you every time, and I find it taxing sometimes.

I agree it can be quite the thing deciding where and when the 'axe should fall' - for me it's especially true concerning character death. And there's no real time to muddle it over. RPGs with dice at least offer a moment to think.

Very much so. Most games give a GM time to regroup while characters are mindlessly killing things, but with ADRP every encounter is significant and gives no time for the GM to think.

I find the potential for ambiguity in the Amber rules ultimately brings out more great things than trouble it causes.

Agreed, which is why ADRP remains among my top 2-3 RPGs of all time. (I confess that I rank the original 1974 D&D as my top RPG of all time, but much of this is nostalgia.)

[noisms]

This may have already come up but I always thought Amber DRPG would be good for a Gormenghast type game: a bunch of people living in a huge decaying castle, plotting against one another while maintaining the veneer of civility.

[jibbajibba]

This may have already come up but I always thought Amber DRPG would be good for a Gormenghast type game: a bunch of people living in a huge decaying castle, plotting against one another while maintaining the veneer of civility.

Ideal for that game and I doubt very much if it wasn't some of Zelazny's inspiration.

It is quite close to the actual game though

[finarvyn]

This may have already come up but I always thought Amber DRPG would be good for a Gormenghast type game: a bunch of people living in a huge decaying castle, plotting against one another while maintaining the veneer of civility.

Tell me more about this. I've never read the books but they sound interesting!

[RPGPundit]

Ideal for that game and I doubt very much if it wasn't some of Zelazny's inspiration.

It is quite close to the actual game though

I think it was, if anything, only mainly the big inspiration for the castle itself.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

Tell me more about this. I've never read the books but they sound interesting!

In the 1950s Mervyn Peake wrote 3 books, Titus Groan, Ghromenghast and Titus Alone. the Hero Titus of thr House of Groan is the heir to a fuck off huge castle and surrounding land but the castle dominates. Its ridiculously big (not quite Feersum Enjin BIG but you know big) and mostly empty and full of weird machivellian plotters like Steerpike who is nominally the villain of the peice.

From a narative perspective its a fantasy novel without magic, mythical beasts or any trappings of fantasy. Its not the easiest read as its quite dry and characters are focused largely on their grotesque elements so it seems otherworldly.

Its a really important book in terms of the development of fantasy though inspiring not just Zelazny and Bankes but just about everyone from Martin (Harrenhall is very Ghormengian) to Sucker Punch (the ballet school/assylum has that same feel to it).

They tried tv shows and some other adaptions but meh they haven't nailed it yet.

[noisms]

In the 1950s Mervyn Peake wrote 3 books, Titus Groan, Ghromenghast and Titus Alone. the Hero Titus of thr House of Groan is the heir to a fuck off huge castle and surrounding land but the castle dominates. Its ridiculously big (not quite Feersum Enjin BIG but you know big) and mostly empty and full of weird machivellian plotters like Steerpike who is nominally the villain of the peice.

From a narative perspective its a fantasy novel without magic, mythical beasts or any trappings of fantasy. Its not the easiest read as its quite dry and characters are focused largely on their grotesque elements so it seems otherworldly.

Its a really important book in terms of the development of fantasy though inspiring not just Zelazny and Bankes but just about everyone from Martin (Harrenhall is very Ghormengian) to Sucker Punch (the ballet school/assylum has that same feel to it).

They tried tv shows and some other adaptions but meh they haven't nailed it yet.

It's almost unfilmable, I would say.

It's hard to explain the appeal as it is so much a mood and atmosphere thing. Just picture a number of eccentrics inhabiting a huge castle, each with their own agenda - either to gain revenge on one another for some old slight, or to take over the castle itself.

[finarvyn]

In the 1950s Mervyn Peake wrote 3 books, Titus Groan, Ghromenghast and Titus Alone.

As you mention the book titles this sounds familiar, like I've seen the books on the shelves of the bookstore years ago.

Its not the easiest read as its quite dry and characters are focused largely on their grotesque elements so it seems otherworldly.

Somehow the fact that they are hard to read sounds familiar as well. Too bad, because I'd love to find more Amber-like fiction. Maybe I'll see if they have a copy of the first book at a used bookstore and give it a shot.

[RPGPundit]

There was a TV series a while ago, I think the BBC? It wasn't all that good though.

In any case, there was a lot more influence in Amber, I think, from other sources; as Wujcik demonstrated in an Amberzine one of the main influences was a 40s pulp-fantasy story.  There was a lot of classic myth/golden bough stuff in there, playing with archetypes, the writing style borrows a lot from Hemmingway.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

As you mention the book titles this sounds familiar, like I've seen the books on the shelves of the bookstore years ago.

Somehow the fact that they are hard to read sounds familiar as well. Too bad, because I'd love to find more Amber-like fiction. Maybe I'll see if they have a copy of the first book at a used bookstore and give it a shot.

Well Try Gaiman.
American Gods has a bit of an Amber vibe as does Anansi Boys.

Gaiman was a good friend of Zelazny and has noted that he woudl have loved to have written more Amber stories if Roger hadn't personally asked him not to. In fact I think Gaiman pitched an Amber Anthology to Roger once with a bunch of the usual fantasy suspects (Martin, Cook, Etc etc) but Roger said no.

I find that a real shame and a little odd as he allowed 7 No Trump (good) and The Black Road War (not so good) adventure books when he was alive as well as the really quite awful Visual guide to Castle Amber. And by asking his mates not to write about Amber we end up with the Benecourt books and look how that turned out.

I have a Dying Earth anthology and its got some real gems in it becuase all of those guys participated and an Amber Book on the same vein I think would have been golden.

But its moot.

[Sydius Mendoza]

I find that a bit odd as well. He obviously had strong feelings about his literary legacy, in that he didn't want others playing in his personal play ground. Which is fine, authors prerogative and all that. But this being the case why didn't he do anything about updating his will? Telling his friends (Gaiman, Martin, etc) that he didn't want others writing about Amber is all well and good, but the only thing it really accomplished is making sure that the quality writers who knew him best had to stand by and watch Betancourt fuck it all up. I have real trouble wrapping my head around the thought process that says tell your best mates how you want your legacy to be handled, but don't bother keeping your will up to date.

If he really felt that strongly about it he could have done more that tell Neil and George "Bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine". He should have left someone in charge that knew the score. As to opposed to someone with an axe to grind.

[jibbajibba]

I find that a bit odd as well. He obviously had strong feelings about his literary legacy, in that he didn't want others playing in his personal play ground. Which is fine, authors prerogative and all that. But this being the case why didn't he do anything about updating his will? Telling his friends (Gaiman, Martin, etc) that he didn't want others writing about Amber is all well and good, but the only thing it really accomplished is making sure that the quality writers who knew him best had to stand by and watch Betancourt fuck it all up. I have real trouble wrapping my head around the thought process that says tell your best mates how you want your legacy to be handled, but don't bother keeping your will up to date.

If he really felt that strongly about it he could have done more that tell Neil and George "Bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine". He should have left someone in charge that knew the score. As to opposed to someone with an axe to grind.

I hear you brother.

[finarvyn]

I've read some Gaiman and loved most of it. (Particularly Neverwhere and his Sandman graphic novels.)

I agree that it's a shame that RZ was so firm on not allowing others to do Amber, since it clearly narrowed the field on which authors were willing to give it a shot. Gaiman would have done an excellent Amber. I'm not so sure about G.R.R. Martin.

I understand why Zelazny was so protective. It's just a shame that the reading public won't get to continue to experience Amber, and indeed that the books seem to be harder and harder to find on bookshelves at all.

[Sydius Mendoza]

Gaiman would have done an excellent Amber. I'm not so sure about G.R.R. Martin.

I thoroughly enjoy both authors. If pressed I would say Martin is my favorite author, but I do think that style-wise Gaiman is the clear choice of who would have done the series the most justice. Honestly I think that a collection of short stories written by his friends and edited by Martin would have been amazeballs.