Amber: All Power to the GM

SunBoy · December 13, 2006, 12:31:50 PM

Quote from: ArrefA friendly GM proposed a system for 'burning Endurance' to raise Attribute rankings. I don't know if anyone playtested that, but the idea has some appeal. A casual read of the Zelazny text shows Corwin used this trick several times.

It would also make the 'dying on the Pattern' issues more transparent to the Players.

I wouldn't say Corwin does that... when he's "out-attributed" he usually cheats his way out of the pinch, rather than "burn" his endurance...
And as for the Pattern thing, what can be more transparent that "you can die walking it. Be tired, and you're likely to die. Be injured, and you're even more likely to die." Come on, enjoy a little mistery. If negotiating the pattern were easy, do you think amberites would have horses? It'd be just a matter of Pattern/go to the bakery/Amber trump-go back/Pattern-go to kwik-e-mart/trump-go back.

Quote from: GrimGentthere's no reason why using Endurance in this fashion in Amber couldn't serve as a mechanical representation of Corwin going to some trouble in order to pull off the deception and tiring himself in the process.

Yeah, but then it would be just a matter of saying "okay, I'll burn 10 END. I think something sneaky", or worst "I'll burn 10 END. It's that enough? No? Okay, I'll burn 20" And remember that in that example Corwin actually was so tired that deceiving Benedict was his only hope, he couldn't outrun him.

And as for the involvement question, okay, I'll give the point, but I don't really find it more or less tiresome that calculating AC and thac0s and stuff. I actually run D&D quite "amberistically" in that sense, as in "yeah, well, let's say he needs a roll of around 15 to hit", or "that 50 hp, yeah, kinda time he dies".

Otha · December 13, 2006, 12:50:58 PM

Quote from: SunBoyI actually run D&D quite "amberistically" in that sense...

Why bother playing D&D if you're going to play that way? It seems like a huge expenditure of money to buy the books if you're going to ignore them.

SunBoy · December 13, 2006, 01:01:40 PM

Quote from: OthaWhy bother playing D&D if you're going to play that way? It seems like a huge expenditure of money to buy the books if you're going to ignore them.

Piracy, mate, piracy. WoTC have got more than enough money. And I don't let my players do it that way, nor do I let them know I'm doing it that way. Though it shows sometimes, that's for sure. And the books have pretty drawings. And spell lists. And all sorts of stuff I can profit from without having to bother with the little orc having a BAB of +1 or +2 or power attack.

The Yann Waters · December 13, 2006, 02:01:59 PM

Quote from: SunBoyYeah, but then it would be just a matter of saying "okay, I'll burn 10 END. I think something sneaky", or worst "I'll burn 10 END. It's that enough? No? Okay, I'll burn 20"

That depends on the details of the resource management system, though: how many points do you have at your disposal at any given time, what's the extent of their effect, when will they be replenished, and so on and so forth... For instance, in MURPG you must constantly allocate points to various traits in order to accomplish any action and the pool is refreshed at the end of every round, while in Nobilis you start out with five points per each of the four attributes which may then be used to improve actions but also have to last for several sessions unless you find a way of regaining them. Needless to say, if the mechanics come closer to the latter approach, the players won't be spending their precious resources frivolously and instead will seek out more tolerable alternatives. They'll be sneaky, in other words.

Also, resorting to Endurance in this manner could only augment the kind of attempts which are plausible under the current system of Amber. Unless that already accommodates actions like "I think something sneaky", spending points wouldn't make it possible, either.

SunBoy · December 13, 2006, 02:31:32 PM

Wouldn't know, I haven't played any of those... and okay, maybe you could do it, maybe you could do it without it replacing "sneakiness", but... I don't know... I don't want to make Amber easier on the players... I think that's the core of it. ADRP already takes in account your END... and if you do things that would tire your character, it should be taken into account on subsecuents actions. And the "expendable" question doesn't assure you that someone won't use it, in some critical moment, as a substitute for something else. And the critical moments are the ones when good roleplaying should save your ass, not some point burning.

RPGPundit · December 13, 2006, 02:56:57 PM

Exactly; there's nothing to be gained by what people like grimgent are suggesting, other than the destruction of the Amber RPG as it currently exists; something that is a vested interest to a certain faction of people who are humiliated by how well Amber actually works.

RPGPundit

alexandro · December 13, 2006, 03:13:23 PM

What you fail to see is that ADRP already could be described as a beancounter game. The GM hast to keep track of all the elements (complete player backgrounds, complete NPC motivations, complete details about the Shadow they are in, complete descriptions of ALL the players involved in the scene...etc.pp.)- all of which are micro-managed in a Palladiumesque way through one person- and decide how these elements add up against each other and if one element is enough to counter all the other elements.

Tough job without resorting to railroading.

Having a clear set of guidelines what the characters can and can't do, instead of continually being forced to ask the GM "can my character do that?" makes play go smoother (for both GM and players) in my opinion.

Blackleaf · December 13, 2006, 03:20:17 PM

What's all this "beancounter game" talk about? Does that mean keeping track of stats like Hit Points and Gold and XP?

James McMurray · December 13, 2006, 03:25:55 PM

Quote from: alexandroThe GM hast to keep track of all the elements (complete player backgrounds, complete NPC motivations, complete details about the Shadow they are in, complete descriptions of ALL the players involved in the scene...etc.pp.)- all of which are micro-managed in a Palladiumesque way through one person- and decide how these elements add up against each other and if one element is enough to counter all the other elements.

Isn't that the GM's job in every game?

SunBoy · December 13, 2006, 03:37:30 PM

Indeed. And what you fail to see, Alex, is that in Amber, there are very few times when you ask "can I do that?", because the default answer is "Yes". You can do anything in Amber. You are a bloody god. And, when you're talking about a conflict, you don't ask "can I do this?", you say "I do this and that". And the GM tells you what happens. That's actually the brilliancy of the system, you know what you can and what you cannot do. You have trump, you can make trumps. You don't you can't. And you can do as fancy a maneuver as you can imagine. You don't have to worry about Movement Actions, or Tumble ranks or whatever.

RPGPundit · December 13, 2006, 03:49:43 PM

Quote from: StuartWhat's all this "beancounter game" talk about? Does that mean keeping track of stats like Hit Points and Gold and XP?

Pretty well; more accurately, its the idea that you are given x amount of points and then have to choose when to use those points to boost your stats to let you do stuff you couldn't do at the baseline of that stat.

This is how some diceless games deal with the issue of not having a random/dice element.

Its not how Amber does it, though.

RPGPundit

The Yann Waters · December 13, 2006, 04:39:38 PM

Quote from: SunBoyAnd what you fail to see, Alex, is that in Amber, there are very few times when you ask "can I do that?", because the default answer is "Yes".

Oddly familiar, that.

alexandro · December 13, 2006, 04:46:51 PM

QuoteIsn't that the GM's job in every game?

Actually: no. But that would be another thread

QuoteIndeed. And what you fail to see, Alex, is that in Amber, there are very few times when you ask "can I do that?", because the default answer is "Yes". You can do anything in Amber. You are a bloody god. And, when you're talking about a conflict, you don't ask "can I do this?", you say "I do this and that". And the GM tells you what happens. That's actually the brilliancy of the system, you know what you can and what you cannot do. You have trump, you can make trumps. You don't you can't. And you can do as fancy a maneuver as you can imagine. You don't have to worry about Movement Actions, or Tumble ranks or whatever.

Thats pretty much how I run it.
But when you look at the examples in the book: you try to find something using the Logrus? You have to pick your words to exactly describe your actions in such away, of what the GM expects you to do in order to succeed. Want to walk the Pattern? The GM decides where you go and how long it takes before you reach your destination. Heck, even when it comes to remembering stuff or if your character has the right skills to do something, the GM decides what your character has done in the past (this is where game stops for me- players should have complete control over their character backgrounds)...

James McMurray · December 13, 2006, 04:49:41 PM

Quote from: GrimGentOddly familiar, that.

:killingme:

SunBoy · December 13, 2006, 05:09:10 PM

Did I miss something? Or did I already forget part of the conversation?
Anyway.

Quote from: alexandroActually: no. But that would be another thread

:confused: Really?

Quote from: alexandroHeck, even when it comes to remembering stuff or if your character has the right skills to do something, the GM decides what your character has done in the past (this is where game stops for me- players should have complete control over their character backgrounds)...

Why? The game specifies that you're in control of what your character knows. Look at the character creation examples. The GM doesn't decide that. Actually, Amber is the game where you have more background freedom: maybe you've spent 200 years living with the neanderthals, maybe you're a starship pilot.