Amber: All Power to the GM

[Otha]

But for the sake of the discussion I'm referring to Amber "by the book" and if you run it by the book, the attributes are king.

Not true.  For one thing, there are ALWAYS mitigating circumstances.  ALWAYS.

For that reason, the attributes are NOT king.  The GM is.  He can ALWAYS pull a reason out for who HE thinks should win the conflict, be it Stuff, tactics, dirty tricks, endurance, whatever.

Maybe not conciously, but the fact remains that if you know how the GM thinks, you have a distinct advantage in ADRP.

Exactly.

[RPGPundit]

The GM role is a very unusual one in games.  Most other types of games (card games, boardgames, sports, etc) would be considered "broken" if you had to rely on someone to do the things many people expect the GM to do in their games.  They're the thing that makes classic RPGs like D&D "work", and yet the role contains the "seed of evil" that opened the door to everything you describe on the White-Wolf side of Swinishness and all that went wrong with gaming in the mid to late 90s.

This is resolved by effective player and GM-training, and in the group, not in the rules.

RPGPundit

[Otha]

Without the GM's limitless control of the game it seems unlikely you'll have the vast, immersive fictional worlds of RPGs that players are free to explore and creatively interact with.

It does?

Do you have small children, or have you watched small children play recently?

When children play their imaginary games with toys and stuff, they are only limited by their imaginations and what the other players are willing to accept.

[Otha]

...if you didn't like Amber at all, I would question your motives for posting here.  

I don't know about Alejandro, but...

I love Amber.

I have serious problems with ADRP.

Which are you talking about?

[alexandro]

This is resolved by effective player and GM-training, and in the group, not in the rules.

Enlighten me: How do you think a gaming group (who are RPing for the first time) should aquire this "training", if it isn't made clear in the book and to aquire it, they have to "game with the right people" (who they don't know).

This is an empty phrase I've seen repeated hundreds of times whenever in some forum a guy described how his game went wrong.
It isn't a solution.

[finarvyn]

I love Amber. I have serious problems with ADRP.

When Pundit says "I would question your motives for posting here", I think he means that since this is a forum about ADRP specifically that if you were not a fan of ADRP you probably wouldn't have a reason to be here except to stir up trouble.

This is not a forum about Amber in general, it's a forum about ADRP in particular. Look at the "The Official Amber DRPG and Erick Wujcik Fanforum" title and that should be the first clue. The overall assumption, I would assume, is that you like the ADRP system and are interested in discusssing various aspects of how to make the game run more smoothly, how to use particular elements of the game, and so on. It's not intended to be a "let's change ADRP into (fill in name of favorite game here)" forum.

Does that mean that posters are not allowed to suggest new ideas, additional options, and alternate ways to play ADRP? Certainly not, but keep in mind that extreme revisions may not be terribly welcome here any more than if you log onto the White Wolf site and suggest they redo their entire game to be d20 compatible. Or get onto the Eden boards and hint that they could make a better game if they would just scrap that pesky Unisystem.

There are other places where you can do that, and I mentioned some of them in one of these threads someplace. The Steve Jackson message board has threads on GURPS Amber, WotC has some threads on d20 Amber, and so on.

Just my two cents.

[SunBoy]

Maybe not conciously, but the fact remains that if you know how the GM thinks, you have a distinct advantage in ADRP.

Do like me, then. Quoting one of the best sentences I heard in a movie as of lately:
-Don't even think so!!
-I never do.

[SunBoy]

It does?

Do you have small children, or have you watched small children play recently?

When children play their imaginary games with toys and stuff, they are only limited by their imaginations and what the other players are willing to accept.

Well, it seems to me you're contradicting yourself a little here. Weren't you advocating for MORE rules for 2ed.? A children's play of pretending has been used to exhaustion as an example of what's an RPG. Well, in ADRP, your imagination isn't limited by annoying little rules that tells you what can or can't you do. You can build your own bloody universe, for Murphy's sake! Can I ask you a question? Have you ever actually played the game? Please do not take it as an insult, mate, because it's not meant to be one. It's just that I'm not sure that you've actually seen the system at work. And if you have, did you enjoyed it? Why?

[RPGPundit]

It does?

Do you have small children, or have you watched small children play recently?

When children play their imaginary games with toys and stuff, they are only limited by their imaginations and what the other players are willing to accept.

You also see a shitload of "Bang! You're dead" "AM NOT you missed" "DID NOT!!"

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

Enlighten me: How do you think a gaming group (who are RPing for the first time) should aquire this "training", if it isn't made clear in the book and to aquire it, they have to "game with the right people" (who they don't know).

This is an empty phrase I've seen repeated hundreds of times whenever in some forum a guy described how his game went wrong.
It isn't a solution.

Training is acquired through a combination of reading good GM advice, watching good GMs play, and lots of trial and error in practicing as a GM.  Amber isn't exactly a game for novice-GMs.

RPGPundit

[James McMurray]

How do you get that recipe when you're the one introducing your group to the game and don't have another Amber GM to watch? Certainly you can get to be a good GM on your own, if you've got players willling to tell you when you're screwing up, but Amber seems to take GM involvement in the game to an entirely new level.

[SunBoy]

I don't think I understand. Why the GM's involvement should be greater? Or, in any case, which (traditional) game doesn't need an "involved" GM?
But, to the first part, yes, if you are just learning it could be really useful to aquire experience by listening to your player, as long as it is in the form of "mate, I really think we should be doing this this other way" and not in the form of "no, no, screw it, I should win!!"

[RPGPundit]

What Sun Boy said.

This isn't a great mystery folks, ultimately, the ONLY way a Good GM comes to be is by practice.  Reading or getting advice helps, but you still have to get in there and GM.  And when you do, its all very straightforward.  The guys who are acting as though its some impossible task are really being disingenuous or naive.  Making a bunch of rules to direct GMs will not create good GMs, only good GMing practice will.  This includes getting used to and constant work on improving your adventures, and getting and listening to feedback from players.

This is all organic stuff, folks, you don't need any complex theory to grasp how its done. Anyone who's convinced you of that lied to you.

RPGPundit

[Otha]

Have you ever actually played the game? Please do not take it as an insult, mate, because it's not meant to be one. It's just that I'm not sure that you've actually seen the system at work. And if you have, did you enjoyed it? Why?

I ran two FTF campaigns, both of which lasted a year or more.

I ran a PBEM for a few months, using a hybrid Everway/Amber system called "Amberway" that eventually went on to be used in the extremely long-running "House of Cards" PBEM run by Ginger Stampley.

I have seen the system at work.  I have felt the elation when a scene just clicks right, and I have felt the little knot in the bottom of my stomach when two of my friends are trying to convince me that they're "right"... and I know that I have nothing to go on.

So yes... I played.  Yes, I have seen the system at work.  And yes, I enjoyed it, but not as much as I could have, and likewise for my players.

[Otha]

Or, in any case, which (traditional) game doesn't need an "involved" GM?

As long as you define a roleplaying game as requiring a GM, then all roleplaying games require a GM, don't they?