Alternate Sorcery Systems

[finarvyn]

Power Source + Casting Time + Focus = Effect + Duration + Range/Area

I like the basics of this system. It seems pretty simple and flexible.

So how do you assign values for each, or do you just "wing it"? I guess I'm wondering if you assign a point total based on a standard scale, based on the points spent on psyche + magic, or what.....

[Otha]

Effect:
Nuisance/detect
Inconvenience/communicate
Wound/impair
Maim/incapacitate
Kill/transform

Duration:
For a moment
For a combat
For a while
Until healed
Permanent

Range:
Me
Right here
Over there
In this shadow
In that shadow
Way across shadow

[Arref]

Good list.

[Otha]

Power Source/Focus:
The magic floating around in a magical shadow
A special place in a magical shadow (i.e. stonehenge)
The magic floating around in a shadow of Power (i.e. Keep of Four Winds)
A real big font of power (i.e. in the Keep of Four Winds itself)
Something Real and/or Primal that transcends shadow (Jewel of Judgement)

Casting/racking Time
Right Now
Hours
Days
Weeks
Months

[finarvyn]

Very nice -- the list is not unlike the one for the SAGA game system I mentioned before and looks to be well thought out.

I assume that you can simply total up the Effect, Range, Duration, Casting time numbers together to get a total point value for the spell. (Unless you totally "freestyle" it.) At least, that's the general method I've seen in other point cost systems.

So, how do you handle the numbers?
1-2-3-4-5 ?
1-2-4-8-16 ?
etc.

Also, does the "Power Source/Focus" number get used to determine the total amount of magic in a region, deduct from the point value of the spell, or what?

[Nihilistic Mind]

By the way, Otha... It's Keep of the Four Worlds.
Have you been playing L5R or something? J/k.

I like the system you guys are coming up with, but it's very unlikely I'll use it...
To me, sorcery in the Amber Universe is VERY dependent upon which Shadow the player characters are in... Psyche and experience with magic also determine how complex spells can be. And for the most part spells will be nothing more than complex and powerful Power Words. Unless one of the players comes up with a very cool description for a ritual or things like that.

The effects are often dependent upon the flavor text description that players will give me. For example: "I'll cast one of my stored lighting spells." will be quite survivable. Whereas, "Pulling the pattern to mind, I reach forth with my mind to communicate with the local mana and forces and summon a great cataclysm upon X," will get much further... even if it is an unprepared spell and assuming in both cases that magic works fairly mundanely in this particular shadow.

What do you guys think about keeping the sorcery system purely based on descriptions, roleplaying, and the factors we already know to affect magic...?

[RPGPundit]

It is an interesting system you guys are coming up with, but do you mean to imply that each single spell would have a point cost?? As in, you'd pay 5 points to cast "fireball", and that's all you cast? Or what?

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

I'm not entirely sure where we're going with this.

One use I can imagine is determining if a character can cast a given spell. Perhaps the maximum points a character could cast would be the sum of Psyche + Sorcery (or some such formula) and the player could then figure out what combinations of range, duration, etc. would fit within the abilites of the character.

Or, perhaps somehow Psyche + Endurance might give a total number of spell points cast in a day.

Or something like that.

At this point it's an exercise in creating an alternate Sorcery system in general, and later maybe we can figure out how to merge it with ADRP specifically.

[finarvyn]

To me, sorcery in the Amber Universe is VERY dependent upon which Shadow the player characters are in...

The effects are often dependent upon the flavor text description that players will give me.

Well, I would think it would be possible to create a +/- modifier for the magic level of a particular shadow, or a +/- for the proximity of the shadow to Amber/Courts, or perhaps a +/- for character familiarity with the shadow, or a +/- for the quality of flavor text used, or whatever.

So a point total could be calculated based on our earlier charts, then the GM would modify according to the totals listed above and that could determine a total point value.

Just me brainstorming aloud....

[RPGPundit]

I'm starting to think up my own sorcery system, blatantly ripped off of Promised Sands... give me a while and I'll post what I have of it...

RPGPundit

[Rel Fexive]

The previously-given lists are pretty much what I would use.  Just establish a rule of thumb for the 'levels' of each.  There are many other game systems that use such things (Ars Magica, Mage, Buffy/Angel, etc) that can be drawn on for inspiration.  Just tune them for the level of power you want your game to have.  The 'points' themselves are just an act of book-keeping unrelated to character points.

In my mind, 'Focus' relates to using things that focus your ability, power, concentration or whatever to make the spells "easier".  Magic circles, following the rules of correspondence and simularity, that kind of thing.  It ties in somewhat with 'Casting Time' as that is sort of a mode of focus all of it's own.

Exactly how you work out a character's 'Power'... I'd guess it comes off Psyche partly as well as the local "energy" (mana or whatever) available to be used for your magic, with an extra bonus for tapping big sources of power like The Keep, or even the Pattern or Logus... which could add additional 'Focus' for using a True Power to back your workings.

I've always thought of the Sorcery power as somewhat independent of the local Shadow magic... a cross-Shadow magic toolbox for doing stuff that taps into the local energy without worrying about the local rules (how everyone does magic in that place).  It's adaptability is part of why it's so clunky; it's all the bloatware from having to be ready for any situation.

That's right: Sorcery is Windows For Magic!

[olivier legrand]

(Sorry to interrupt the discussion)

Coincidences, coincidences...

I've just posted my own alternate Sorcery system on my Amber / ReBMA website. Although designed for use with my variant "ReBMA" rules, it can
also be used with the original Amber rules.

But be warned : the system in question takes serious liberties with the original rules and with what could be considered "canon" by purists. It was developed in the context of my ongoing campaign, in which the Merlin saga never really occurred (and which thus tended to be quite "Sorcery-poor", at least at its beginnings).

The PDF includes personal interpretations & various modifications to the basic sorcery system, as well as a short section on "trump sorcery" (something which, again, comes from my own campaign and may not appeal to everyone's tastes.

I'd be glad to receive advice, constructive criticisms, suggestions, questions etc... but I'd like to avoid (if possible) being flamed down simply because the whole thing is "not canon" - but I guess this won't happen since we are talking ALTERNATE systems here anyway.:rolleyes:

So here is the link :

http://amberway.free.fr/REBMA.html

[Lee Short]

Before you really deal with mechanics for Sorcery, you have to consider the view, expressed in the basic ADRPG book, that Sorcery ought to be a second-rate power.  If you want that to be the case, then Sorcery isn't really worth detailing unless you're running a low-power campaign.  Of course, low-power is my preferred way to go, but not all games I have run have gone that way.

[olivier legrand]

Before you really deal with mechanics for Sorcery, you have to consider the view, expressed in the basic ADRPG book, that Sorcery ought to be a second-rate power.  If you want that to be the case, then Sorcery isn't really worth detailing unless you're running a low-power campaign.  Of course, low-power is my preferred way to go, but not all games I have run have gone that way.

Well, I completely agree on Sorcery being a "second rate" power as far as Amberites are concerned - and that's why I didn't feel the need to really bother with it during the first seasons of my campaign... but a campaign (especially a long running one, with many NPCs, shadows etc) may also integrate, say, NPC Logrus masters and Sorcerers (not to mention, gasp, player-characters), in which case a clarified /simplified system might be helpful.

I think one of the main "problems" one may have with the Sorcery rules as they stand is not their complexity per se : if Sorcery was the focus of the game, this level of complexity would (I think) be accepted as one of the key features of the game - but since Sorcery is more or less explicitly presented as a second-rate power, this level of complexity is often perceived as unneccesary complication - why bother with all these complications since it IS "a second-rate" power ?  Well, I guess the whole complexity issue was deliberately injected into the game as a manner of discouraging players from taking Sorcery and also to reflect the fact that Sorcery is supposed to be a complex art... but again, one might feel more comfortable with a simplified, streamlined or wholly alternate system than with the original ADRPG Sorcery rules.

That being said, I think that one of the greatest pitfalls of designing alternate Sorcery system is the risk of making Sorcery too attractive, too powerful etc. Pattern and Chaos should clearly remain the supreme forces in the game.

[finarvyn]

I'd be glad to receive advice, constructive criticisms, suggestions, questions etc... but I'd like to avoid (if possible) being flamed down simply because the whole thing is "not canon" - but I guess this won't happen since we are talking ALTERNATE systems here anyway.:rolleyes:

I downloaded it and gave it a once-over. I'll try to post some thoughts soon.

That being said, I think that one of the greatest pitfalls of designing alternate Sorcery system is the risk of making Sorcery too attractive, too powerful etc. Pattern and Chaos should clearly remain the supreme forces in the game.

An interesting point. I once ran a "Power Words Only" game just to see how it would work out, and it was amazing what kinds of things players can attempt with only a short "spell list" of Power Words – and PWs aren't supposed to have any real value in the game! Certainly, if Sorcery looks too good then players will want to use it a lot more and that would alter somewhat the balance of the game. I'm not sure if it's good or bad, but it's not quite Amber....

Just my two cents.