Advice on handling combat

[Panjumanju]

There's been some great responses here.

I completely agree with the person who pointed out (I'll paraphrase) that you have to remember how easy to is to pull a trigger. Strength may be quicker than Warfare on an even plane, but a gun has tremendous ease of use.

//Panjumanju

[mAcular Chaotic]

Ah... so you'd consider the gun itself an environmental advantage.

[Panjumanju]

Ah... so you'd consider the gun itself an environmental advantage.

Of a sort, yes. Weapons are not equal, but they are circumstantial. A handgun would be to your hindrance when grappling where a knife would be an advantage. If someone is across the room, however, the gun is more advantageous. (And so on, an so forth...)

//Panjumanju

[mAcular Chaotic]

Speaking of being across the room, here's another question. How do you deal with distances? In tactical games with grids, everything is measured out. But in Amber you deal with everything being abstract and part of your imagination. So if somebody is on the other side of a field with a sword trying to close the distance, and someone else has something like a gun or bow opposite of them, what kind of principles do you use to handle that kind of movement?

I thought of doing something like dividing the range a PC could be in into zones like "melee," "close," and "far" and use that to control where the character would be in relation to another character. Then when they want to close the distance they'd have to cross through these zones.

Or would you just arbitrarily decide after what "feels" right that after dodging so many attacks from the bowman, the swordsman has closed range? Or something like that.

[Panjumanju]

I thought of doing something like dividing the range a PC could be in into zones like "melee," "close," and "far" and use that to control where the character would be in relation to another character. Then when they want to close the distance they'd have to cross through these zones.

I think you're over-complicating it. If you reason in your brain that the melee character has X Strength and therefore can run yae much, and the bowman has, comparably, Y Warfare, then the bowman should be able to get off (for the sake of argument) 6 shots before the melee fighter can close into his preferred range. After no more than 3 shots, if the shots are having any real effect, the melee fighter is probably going to rethink his strategy anyway and try to lay down in the brush to lay a trap (or call trump), or just try and talk it out, or throw his sword, or whatever else.

Trying to run Amber, the situation is changing all the time. If you spend too much time trying to reason out a field of wheat into areas, you'll be quickly bogged down with details that will in no way enhance the combat for the players, but instead just make the situation feel more complicated.

//Panjumanju

[Artifacts of Amber]

Zones may work as an internal dialogue or means for the Gm to keep track but it is not a required to run good combat.

Instead take the idea of distance and like most things in Amber you turn it descriptors. There honestly are no hard and fast rules as to how much ground can warfare rank one cover compared to strength rank one. You make assumptions based on how you see Amberites. Are they super fast compared to a human. You can draw from the books for examples but to be realistic distances are not often given in them.

Each GM has an idea of the physical and mental capabilities of Amberites with that you can have a clearer idea of how fast can A get to B.

As Panjumanju said if the guy charging can't avoid the arrows and gets shot he probably should consider a different approach. if as a player I charged and the first arrow hit I would retreat and not wait and see how good they really are.

[mAcular Chaotic]

So you guys are saying based on the Warfare, I don't worry about the distance the other player travels, I just say "they fire X shots, you get hit/dodge it, now what do you do" and then move on to the next stage that being them being close or doing something else?

[jibbajibba]

If I get time tonight I will write up the actual combat we had the other weekend.
Shows a mix of Strength, Endurance and Warfare in an enclose area with lots of environmentl considerations and a pissed off Snow White with a colt python.

[Arref]

Speaking of being across the room, here's another question. How do you deal with distances? In tactical games with grids, everything is measured out. But in Amber you deal with everything being abstract and part of your imagination. So if somebody is on the other side of a field with a sword trying to close the distance, and someone else has something like a gun or bow opposite of them, what kind of principles do you use to handle that kind of movement?

Read up a Zelazny passage on combat and you'll find that the author jumps from very tactical comments about sword position to a few descriptions about positioning and strikes.

But what the game rules provide is the strategy of conflict, not the tactics (which are described by Players). Tactics become the 'descriptors' and 'environ' that may affect how you delay a loss or accelerate a win.

Because the attributes have told you how the fight should come out before it starts.

In Amber combat, it is perfectly OK for a Player to turn to the GM and say, "well, I'm an expert in Strength and I'm highly ranked. What do I think my best move is for crossing this field and getting to him while he is hitting me with arrows."

As a GM, you do have to offer some choices to that Player. Between the two of you, you define the expertise of the amazing attributes.

The answer may be "you see no way to cross the field without getting seriously hurt and maybe killed". That's a choice based on expert experience. The PCs in an Amber game have got that sort of expertise under their belts already.

[mAcular Chaotic]

If I get time tonight I will write up the actual combat we had the other weekend.
Shows a mix of Strength, Endurance and Warfare in an enclose area with lots of environmentl considerations and a pissed off Snow White with a colt python.

Awesome! Seeing it in action would definitely help.

But what the game rules provide is the strategy of conflict, not the tactics (which are described by Players).

That's an interesting way of putting it. Could you elaborate on that more?

I also noticed in the Amber that it does offer specific tactics, like parrying a move or trying to go on all defense. Are you supposed to try and fit all the player actions to those options or are those just offered for help?

[Panjumanju]

I also noticed in the Amber that it does offer specific tactics, like parrying a move or trying to go on all defense. Are you supposed to try and fit all the player actions to those options or are those just offered for help?

They're just there for flavour, if you want them. It's a very important point - you shouldn't have to be a fencing master in order to play a fencing master. In no way is Amber Diceless structured such that the player with more experience in combat can bluff his way through combat better than the player who has none.

I'm very fond of Arref's "strategy of conflict" phrase - I think it hits the nail right on the head.

//Panjumanju

[Arref]

strategy: a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The design of Attributes assumes the skill, pacing, talent, and experience of the ranking in the expertise.

Hence my comment that each Player Character already knows how to win (based on an Attribute they mastered as part of PC creation), and needs to apply tactics to influence the strategy of each conflict.

In rare cases, the tactics applied will not support the Attribute (for a role play reason, for instance), but the GM should give the Player help in reaching Attribute potential.

Gerard loses his temper, goes after Corwin (tunnel vision), gets punched out by a bystander. Debatable? But an example of where Gerard's player has decided that they are not going to win the fight they could have easily won. Bad tactics.

Brand immobilizes Benedict in Psyche battle that does not even appear to be a battle until it is too late. Good tactics that support the expertise of the PC.

Big picture: the hard won experience of your Attributes will always lead you to make the best choices in where to attack, when to make your move, how to get the best out of even overwhelming opposition. Big picture is strategy.

Tactics are the roleplay decisions you make to get the plan implemented. So you need to apply wits and planning to get your Strength aims laid out clearly. And then choose tactics that will make the plan happen. Pick the best location, bring a backup plan, don't let the other person have their favorite option.

One of the GM techniques I use is to assist the Strategy bits with the Player...so the PC looks ultra competent in their plan. Then let the Player run 90% of the choices in the moment without comment.

If things start to go wrong, the GM may toss additional choices into the mix based on that same Attribute ranking, and remind the Player of the Plan for winning.

[jibbajibba]

so this is an actual combat using the Amber engine. Its set in my Fables game and happened at our last session

First I will sumamrise the protagonists

PCs
Tom
S:1st W:Mid E: Mid P:A   - Tom appears a regular human. He is immune to all fear effects and has increased resistance against psyche attacks

Takashi
S:Mid W:1st E:Low P:Low - Takashi is an Oni, an 8 foot tall Japanese Ogre. He can turn invisible at will and carries a deadly damage tetsubo and wears sandals that allow him to fly.

Jim
S:Mid W:Mid E:Mid P:Mid - Jim is a pig. He can shapeshift to any animal form of a similar size and usually appears as a plump little kid. He carries a straw that gives him engine speed, a stick that deals deadly damage and a brick that can make him invlunerable to normal weapons.

Kyuo
S:Low W:Low E:Mid P: 1st - Kyuo is a kitsune (fox spirit) he can change form between a fox and a human and can create scenic illusions which is to say ones that affect the background (you will see how this works)

Morty
A dragon who spent the entire combat over the road at Starbucks with a frothy latte.

NPCs
Snow White
S:A W:Mid E:High P: Low   - Snow is effectively incharge of Fabletown and carries a colt python with mercury tipped silver bullets

Griswold
S:High W: Mid E:1st P:A   - Griswold is a Troll (the one from under the bridge). He can shaprshift to a human form. He can regenerate injuries and has been given enhanced senses so he can see invisible creatures and see through illusions if he concentrates.

Princess Kaguya
S:A W:Low E:High P: Mid   - Kaguya appears as a 13 year old girl. On the spur of the moment in the previous session i gave her powers liek that of Armour in the X-Men, ie. she can create a force shell around herself like a suit of armour which takes on the appearance of a Japanese mythological creature or fable (which was why I thought of it).


Situation
Princess Kaguya is being stored inside a packing crate in a cell in the dungeons of Fabletown in New York. In fact the dungeons exist as extra-planar space under an appartment block. They appear just like medieval dungeon rooms with a low vaulted corridor, thick wooden doors etc.
Takashi and Kyuo have been orderd by Monkey, Great Sage Equal of Heaven (please use full name at all times) to retrieve the princess.
Snow white has ordered the princess kept in the crate in the cell because the crate prevents the People of the Capital of the Moon from sensing her location and sending an army to come and collect her. Tom, Griswold and Jim work for Snow.
Takashi and Kyuo formed a plan for Takashi to enter the complex invisible go down to the cell collect the princess bring her back up and then Kyuo would mask their exit using an illusion. Neither realised that Griswold the sleepy looking security guard who sits in the main lobby of the block is a) a Troll in disguise or b) has enhanced senses that can detect invisible creatures and see through illusions.
Takashi tried to sneak in, Griswold yelled for him to stop, triggered an alarm to snow and chased the Oni downstairs. The Oni was faster because of sandals of flying and so got to the cell door, smashed it and and dragged the girl out of the crate. Then Griswold catches up. Snow raised the other PCs and she and Tom head down to the cells. Jim stays at teh top ofd the stairs to warn of anyone else coming.

Now Amber doesn't use rounds but this will work better and make more sense if I write it up in that way.

1. Griswold tries to slash Takashi as he comes out of the cell. Takashi is 1st ranked in Warfare so blocks the blow easily catching he trolls arm and flinging him behind and into a wall. he follows up by smashing the trolls skull with his club. (in game terms Griswold has an advantage because he is initiating combat but Takashi is 1st rank in warfare so easily sees and counters the attack and lands a blow with a deadly damage club and strength roughtly equal to the troll. Takashi's invisibility has no effect)

2. Takashi pulls Princess Kaguya out of the cell and heads towards the surface. Snow and Tom come into the corridor. Princess Kaguya activates her armour. Griswold regnerates his injuries.

3. Takashi decides to charge Snow and Tom dragging Kaguya by one arm. Griswold however grabs her leg which effectively prevents Griswold from charging. (in game terms Griswold is better at combat and is stronger than the princess everything is in very close quarters and neither the troll or the Oni can actually stand up straight which hinders them. Griswold's Strength is able to stop Takashi)

4. Snow threatens everyone and fires her gun. No effect.

5. Takashi tries to turn and swing his club into Griswold. He hits so but looses his grip on the princess who is slammed into the wall and knocked out (her Psyche that powers her armour is not as high rank as Griswold's Stength). Takashi can't swing his weapon, its a 6 foot long club in a 7 foot high corridor so he jabs it into the trolls chest, crushing a few ribs and driving the troll backwards.
Tom charges down the corridor. He has seen the Oni using invisibility before so knows what is going on.

6. Upstairs Kyuo in fox form tries to sneak past Jim who smacks the fox with his stick, but quite gently.

7. Takashi turns to face Tom. Tom tries to grab the invisible ogre. Takashi smashes Tom in the face with his club.  (Tom is 1st rank in strength. takashi can't swing his club properly so its a smack in the face. Will mash some bones but as Tom is 1st rank in Strength he can take a huge amount of damage especially blunt force trauma) Griswold regenerates.

8. Kyuo begins a conversation with jim and tries to lock eyes and start a psyche battle but the little pig is too strong and gives the fox another warning smack with his stick breaking the possible link.

9. Takashi smacks Tom again trying to stave off any attempt to grab him with the club. Behind him Griswold digs 2 set sof massive claws into his back. (in game terms Takashi has warfare advantage but kinds of wastes it because he repeats the same attack this time with less force. The troll has sufficient warfare to land a solid blow as Takashi is engaged in combat and has his back facing the troll. Really here the player could have been smarter and kept their warfare advantage but they have kind of wasted it and now they find themselves in an enclosed space against 2 opponents. Tom and the troll are both trying to move the combat to hand to hand where strength will trump warfare. The Oni neds to try and resist this.)

10. Takashi pulls himself free of one of Griswolds claws. This however tears his right shoulder badly. He tries to pull Tom onto the invisible spines that grow out of his chest but lacks the strenght to move him at all and now he is in a grapple with Tom. tom's face is now the size of a pumkin becuaser of those blows but he has the endurance and strength to carry on and gets a good grip round Takashi's good arm and bodyand starts to squeeze. Griswold took damage from takashi ripping the claw out which he regenerates. (so due to some less than optimal player choices, the environment and the odds, Takashi has lost his warfare advantage he is now in a grapple with the 1st rank Strength and he has taken a major injury to boot. Tom has taken a major wound but now has the upper hand)

11. Kyou uses his illusion power and turns the lobby into a forest full of foxes staring back at Jim throught eh undergrowth. Using that advantage he slips past down the stairs and into the corridor extending the forest illusion as he goes.

12. Snow White is still shoulding for everyone to stop but is being ignored.

13. Takashi tries to use his sandals to fly forward lifting Tom up. However, the corridor is too low to get enough height so he has no leverage and Tom is not moving anywhere. Tom squeezes popping a couple of the Oni's ribs and flips him down onto the ground on his back. From here there is is nothing he can do so the Oni surrenders and turns visible before Tom squeezes the life out of him. Griswold regenerates and collects the princess.(its a strength battle now Takashi can't use his club and can't see a way to beat Tom)

14. Snow clicks back the hammer on the python and sticks it in the Oni's face demanding he tell her what is going on. (now here even if teh Oni wasn;t held down and injured the gun would go off before  Takashi could act. He might beat a human level wqarfare or even a chasoite here but not a low ranked amberite)

15. As things look to calm down the corridor is replaced with a shadowy forest where hundreds of fox eyes peer out of the shadows as the knot of combatants.        

 
End result.
Tom is badly injured but its blunt force trauma and he is rank 1 Str so he will survive it just looks like a truck drove into his face.
Takashi is injured and will have to heal those claws to his back. It was a bad place for him to fight. No room to move his club, and the fight quickly moved from Warfare to Strength because of the environment.
Princess Kaguya - knocked out because of a direct compare Strength to Psyche. This won't leave any injury and she will soon come round.
Morty - enjoyed the frothy latte but was unable to resist a cookie and now feels guilty about it.