Advice on handling combat

[jibbajibba]

Dilating time? I don't see that at all. Mind lock and hold it. Eric's in Castle Amber presumably, what else has he got to do that's more important?

I think of psyche moves as analogous to wrestling/boxing moves instead of the Professor X, "I've pushed the paralysis button and now I'm free to do whatever" thing. A mind lock is like a wrestling hold, assault is assault, suggestion doesn't come up in the books IIRC, mindrape is beating information out of them and domination is grabbing them and moving them around. The greater the psychic superiority the more aiki-jijitsu-esque and less thuggy the technique. More astral combat, less computer virus.

Why? I think it models the books better and I think it's more fun.

As for Brand vs Ben, Brand used the Jewel of Judgment to freeze him up.

If you read the passage of the Trump lock Corwin looses all track of time he thinks a few moments have past but in fact its hours and his fleet is lost.

Brand doesn't have the jewel at that point .

[RTrimmer]

If you read the passage of the Trump lock Corwin looses all track of time he thinks a few moments have past but in fact its hours and his fleet is lost.

Brand doesn't have the jewel at that point .

Yes he does. I checked. Brand grabbed it on Earth, Gerard scared him away from Amber's Pattern, Rebma's also guarded, Corwin chased him off the Primal -- partially attuned -- and Ben confronted him in Tir-na Nog'th.

[jibbajibba]

Yes he does. I checked. Brand grabbed it on Earth, Gerard scared him away from Amber's Pattern, Rebma's also guarded, Corwin chased him off the Primal -- partially attuned -- and Ben confronted him in Tir-na Nog'th.

alas and alack my amber-fu has failed me

I throw myself on the mercy of the Courts. I had assumed that was the inspiration for the whole psyche take control of someone through eye contact part of the rules as I can't recall any other examples of it in teh books at all.

[RTrimmer]

alas and alack my amber-fu has failed me

I throw myself on the mercy of the Courts. I had assumed that was the inspiration for the whole psyche take control of someone through eye contact part of the rules as I can't recall any other examples of it in teh books at all.

Heh, I had to check to be sure.
For eye contact, I think Strygalldwir snaking Corwin's name was the only example.

[Arref]

For eye contact, I think Strygalldwir snaking Corwin's name was the only example.

Also this scene very similar (the two cats of doom attempt to slay Corwin):

But the one I had halved was not yet dead. Its head turned toward me
and those blazing eyes met my own and held them.

"I die the final death," it said, "and so I know you, Opener. Why do
you slay us?" And then the flames consumed its head.

[mAcular Chaotic]

I still don't understand how to handle switching attributes.

For instance if someone is fighting Warfare against another's Warfare... suppose one player says they want to go in for a grapple so they can use Strength.

What do I do at that point? Do I ask the other player how they try to stop that, or do I just check their Warfare and just decide "okay, you made it in."

Or suppose one player wants to establish eye contact: how do I decide that they do that? Do I tell the other player that their enemy is trying to establish eye contact and ask them how they try to resist it? Or do I just rule that eye contact is either made or not made based on their attributes at the time?

Does Lords of Olympus offer more clarity in these kinds of situations?

[Artifacts of Amber]

I would default to ranks in that case.

If first place Warfare was attacked by strength then I would compare Warfare. Second place warfare may take a hit or something similar in order to grab the 1st place Warfare.  If he was lower than that I would say he couldn't get a grip on the 1st place guy. Rank in Strength does not matter until in the clinch.


Eye contact would compare Warfare to Psyche. So first place in both means no contact as it seems easier to avoid than establish contact tie goes to the defender. Other wise if Psyche is high enough, by several ranks, I would say since it is inferred that this sort of thing is difficult they could start contact. So maybe 4th place warfare compared to 1st place psyche ends in mental contact.


You communicate each circumstance so 1st place warfare would notice the psyche person trying to lock eyes or the strength person trying to get close enough for a clinch.



Now Off books and non rules way I do things is compare the actually numbers used to gain that rank for some reason people make those points no longer mean anything once character is done so a 10 point 1st place psyche is same as a 50 pt warfare, but the powers are all equal in cost and abilities given.

So a 50 1st place psyche versus a 15 point 1st place warfare means they could probably mind bend them if they wanted to.

Just my thoughts

[Panjumanju]

I still don't understand how to handle switching attributes.

I believe you're over thinking it.

For instance if someone is fighting Warfare against another's Warfare... suppose one player says they want to go in for a grapple so they can use Strength.

The rule to remember here is: "The closer the Attributes, the more drawn out the action. The farther away the Attributes, the swifter the resolution."

Do I ask the other player how they try to stop that,

Yes, if the potential grappler's Strength is fairly on par with or not as good as the other character's Warfare.

or do I just check their Warfare and just decide "okay, you made it in."

Yes, if the potential grappler's Strength is really a whole lot better than the other character's Warfare.

Or suppose one player wants to establish eye contact: how do I decide that they do that?

That's one people usually have trouble with. Remember how difficult it can be to catch someone's eye, and then concentrate, before they stab you in the chest. It's a very tricky thing to do.

Do I tell the other player that their enemy is trying to establish eye contact and ask them how they try to resist it?  

If that other player's Warfare is close to or superiour to the attacker's Psyche, then yes that's exactly what I'd do.

Or do I just rule that eye contact is either made or not made based on their attributes at the time?

If the attacker has a much better Psyche then the contact is probably made. If their Psyche is not adequately better than their target, it just fails, or worse - creates an opening for attack.

I think you've got it all - the "The closer the Attributes..." rule was what you were missing.

//Panjumanju

[mAcular Chaotic]

Thanks. Supposing that it's more drawn out, what kind of actions would the players take to change the situation?

Also, if one character is a few classes above another character, the battle should be fairly quick. How could the weaker character escape when he realizes he's outmatched, or is he just doomed the moment he started the battle?

[Doughdee222]

I've never run an Amber game so I may be talking out of my ass here, but from the above comments I fear the Strength Attribute might have the short end of the stick. It seems Warfare is still considered the most important combat Attribute. That's fine if that's the way you want it. But if you want the Attributes to be closer to equal allow the player(s) to role-play it out more.

The Strength guy can find ways to minimize the superior weapon skills of the Warfare guy. Allow him to pick up a big table and pin his opponent against the wall, or he can use a big shield to move the opposing weapon away to the side so he can land a few punches or kicks. Let the Strength guy go all "Jackie Chan" to get the edge over his weapon holding foes, using anything and everything in the environment to block attacks and land blows. If the Warfare guy has a spear the Strength guy can grab it, move past the point and kick at the legs. Allow him to grab the arms of the Warfare guy and twist/break them, or throw the guy a distance.

The Strength guy doesn't have to be the weaker putz in the contest. Just imagine a bare handed Schwarzenegger fighting Jet Li who's holding a sword or spear. Is Arnold really at a big disadvantage? I don't know. If role played right Arnold should have a decent chance of winning. (Or choose other names, A bare handed Steven Seagal versus a sword wielding... whoever.)

Just my two cents.

[Artifacts of Amber]

mAcular Chaotic

Thanks. Supposing that it's more drawn out, what kind of actions would the players take to change the situation?

Also, if one character is a few classes above another character, the battle should be fairly quick. How could the weaker character escape when he realizes he's outmatched, or is he just doomed the moment he started the battle?

If your dumb enough to get in a fight with someone who sorely outclasses you, you lose. This is why I don't pick fights with black belts. I would freakin' lose. Period!

Now knowing you are absolutely going to lose does open up some interesting role playing, so not end of the world but the beginning of an interesting change of events.



True Doughdee those are all legitimate ways to interpret strength but If I had Warfare I have counter argument that is just as Legitimate. I can see he is strong so I don't let him grab my weapons I am faster so I dance around his blocking with big stuff. etc.


That is where Amber is interesting since it comes to the players as well as GM to figure out what attribute can do what. In my games Strength also offers some injury resistance. I imagine hitting Gerard does not do, as much as, hitting Benedict with the same blow. So Gerard would take a the sword blow and walk into the guy he is fighting to grab him. So the Warfare works since Gerard is now hurt but he takes that hurt as the price of changing the attribute in contest. In fact Gerard says something to that affect in the books to Corwin when he makes him promise to see to Amber's safety.

Just my thoughts as confused as they are

[Panjumanju]

Thanks. Supposing that it's more drawn out, what kind of actions would the players take to change the situation?

The possibilities are potentially endless, and usually based directly on where you are fighting and what else is going on around you. Some ideas are:

* Use the environment - throw a pot at someone or flip a table over.
* Seem to flee but actually lead them into quicksand.
* Start a fire.
* Call for help. (Why are you fighting someone to the death alone, you fool?)
* Endurance: Always remember that the more drawn out it gets the more it becomes a matter of Endurance instead. Your Strength may be similar for this wrestling match, but if one guy has Chaos Endurance, he'll quickly tire.
* Stuff: Good and bad stuff also factors into the conflict. "You try to lead your opponent off the edge, but you slip on a pebble..."

Also, if one character is a few classes above another character, the battle should be fairly quick. How could the weaker character escape when he realizes he's outmatched, or is he just doomed the moment he started the battle?

The character is rarely ever doomed. Running away is always a really good option. Remember, it's very difficult to catch someone when they're determined to book it. Also, it's rare that someone you're fighting actually wants to full-out kill you, so negotiation is an important skill. Usually one character wants something from the other, and nefarious deals can be made instead.

I've never run an Amber game so I may be talking out of my ass here, but from the above comments I fear the Strength Attribute might have the short end of the stick.

The Attributes are all very equal. Part of what tells me they are is because when I'm explaining the rules someone always says: "It seems like X isn't as strong as the other 3", but X is a different Attribute every time.

Strength means more than just muscle mass, it's also use of muscle - like martial arts, and muscle density - acting as a kind of body armour. Typically a Warefare character's interest is in keeping a Strength character at bay, because if a Strength character closes in the match is decided very quickly. There's not much Mr. Warfare can do once Mr. Strength has snapped their sword. Just, as an example.

//Panjumanju

[mAcular Chaotic]

The character is rarely ever doomed. Running away is always a really good option. Remember, it's very difficult to catch someone when they're determined to book it. Also, it's rare that someone you're fighting actually wants to full-out kill you, so negotiation is an important skill. Usually one character wants something from the other, and nefarious deals can be made instead.

Well, putting aside killing them, if you can run away whenever you want then how could anyone be forced to cut a nefarious deal? They could just always escape. So there has to be a way to defeat someone even if they want to escape. Right?

Also I was talking about a situation where two players don't know how strong they are in relation to each other when they start fighting. But then once the fight starts, one player quickly realizes he's far outclassed.

[Panjumanju]

Well, putting aside killing them, if you can run away whenever you want then how could anyone be forced to cut a nefarious deal?

Don't be silly, you can't *always* run away. What if you're surrounded, chained, or drugged?

Also I was talking about a situation where two players don't know how strong they are in relation to each other when they start fighting. But then once the fight starts, one player quickly realizes he's far outclassed.

As a GM you ask the player(s) involved in the combat what their intentions are. If their intention is to kill, or is to hold someone off, or to prevent someone from entering a doorway, or to distract someone, then their fighting ability is going to manifest very differently. It gets further complicated when someone is pretending to be better than they are, or pretending to be worse than they are. Get all the information you can from your players about what they're looking to accomplish before you start telling them the result.

//Panjumanju

[mAcular Chaotic]

Don't be silly, you can't *always* run away. What if you're surrounded, chained, or drugged?

Yeah, I just mean what the cut off point would be in terms of pure attributes, with everything else not involved, for someone being able to flee successfully. I guess I just have to just make some rules for myself. Like 3 classes and below, there is no escape.

The kind of game I'm thinking of has players who are friends that relish going after each other so having them try to kill each other is almost guaranteed. I assume at some point the loser would try to escape, so I'm trying to think of how to handle those scenarios.