Advice on handling combat

[mAcular Chaotic]

Well, to a certain extent, you already have to apply it that way when dealing with non PCs. All the elders are judged that way, right?

Maybe a better way to do it is to keep the rankings but also rank all the elders alongside them. That way everybody fits in one continuum.

[RTrimmer]

Then there's this, from Tony Jones' Amber Page
http://www.clockworksky.net/rp_am_iain_conflict_system.html

and this from Doyce Testerman's site
http://random-average.com/amber/holistic.html
I've both played and gm'd using this one: worked pretty well.

[RTrimmer]

Yeah, I never liked the dual rankings system. Triple with the Shadow Knight demon system thrown in.

I like, in theory (haven't field tested it), the Lords of Olympus npc system of Low Ranked, High Ranked, tied with First Ranked and First Ranked + 1, 2, 3 etc.

Well, to a certain extent, you already have to apply it that way when dealing with non PCs. All the elders are judged that way, right?

Maybe a better way to do it is to keep the rankings but also rank all the elders alongside them. That way everybody fits in one continuum.

[Arref]

1)In addition think about speed. Strength is quicker than warfare which is quicker than psyche whcih is quicker than mist powers, power words are the exception.

Check the rules on speed very carefully, the description quoted above is incorrect.

attribute speed

"In general, Strength is the fastest of the Attributes when characters are in a hand-to-hand clinch. Otherwise, reaction time is determined by Warfare, so a better Warfare rank determines a character's reflexes.

Finally, nothing can work faster than thought, so mental combat is fastest of all. However, there must be mind to mind contact already set up."
---pg. 95 ADRPG

[Panjumanju]

attribute speed

Thanks for linking to the article, that was great! It's a very good example of how to adjudicate Attributes in action.

//Panjumanju

[Artifacts of Amber]

It's not confusing, but doesn't that defeat the point of rankings?

Like if 1st place is 50, 2nd place is 49, 3rd place is 48, and 4th is 47, normally there is no way 4th could do anything to the guy in 1st. But here they're only separated by a few points which means they should be very close.

mAcular Chaotic


Since you asked,

      Well for me ranks are a general guide. It helps inform the players were they sit in a general way. See I really go off book into the crazy world of house rules.  I may have 3 people at rank 2 in psyche. each only a few points different. Unless they get into do or die contest with each other they never know who actually has more points. So I guess what I am trying to communicate is rankings are general, public, so to speak measurements.

So if everyone is spread only a point apart the contest would be very long and drawn out until whoever has the most points wins. The differences in points effects how long a contest last and how much of an advantage you need to create to beat someone of higher rank. So a one point difference the opponent getting an inopportune Trump that they have to concentrate and refuse may be enough to turn the tide of the fight/contest but someone 30 points better can do both though it would be noticeable.


I try to make all points equivalent but that is not an easy task. Remember that 1 point is enough to by an entire shadow helps

Hope this helps.

[Panjumanju]

Getting back to the original questions;

1) How do you decide what attribute a certain action falls under?

Do you feel like this has been adequately answered? Because more than a few people on here can go on about this until the cows come home....it's more of an art than a science, and thus opens itself up to much subjectivity, but should not be considered arbitrary in its distinctions.

2) How do you decide when a player can change the attribute being contested?

I don't know if anyone said anything about this - but in answer, whenever they want to, potentially instantly. "The ruffian throws a chair at you" (Warfare) "I smash the chair with my forehead." (Strength). A player should be shifting the battleground to their superiour Attributes, or their opponent's inferiour Attributes, whenever they can.

Helpful; yes, no?

//Panjumanju

[mAcular Chaotic]

I don't know if anyone said anything about this - but in answer, whenever they want to, potentially instantly. "The ruffian throws a chair at you" (Warfare) "I smash the chair with my forehead." (Strength). A player should be shifting the battleground to their superiour Attributes, or their opponent's inferiour Attributes, whenever they can.

Helpful; yes, no?

//Panjumanju

It's helpful. I was under the impression that when a player tries to change the attribute, the other player would have an ability to stop them or something. But it's not like that?

So to break it down into a "turn" format, it would be like just having a player be able to attack, and then the other player dodging or resisting successfully would just be the attacker missing. As opposed to turning to the defending player and saying something like "he's going to do X, what do you do!"

[RTrimmer]

It's not confusing, but doesn't that defeat the point of rankings?

Like if 1st place is 50, 2nd place is 49, 3rd place is 48, and 4th is 47, normally there is no way 4th could do anything to the guy in 1st. But here they're only separated by a few points which means they should be very close.

mAcular Chaotic


Since you asked,

      Well for me ranks are a general guide. It helps inform the players were they sit in a general way. See I really go off book into the crazy world of house rules.  I may have 3 people at rank 2 in psyche. each only a few points different. Unless they get into do or die contest with each other they never know who actually has more points. So I guess what I am trying to communicate is rankings are general, public, so to speak measurements.

So if everyone is spread only a point apart the contest would be very long and drawn out until whoever has the most points wins. The differences in points effects how long a contest last and how much of an advantage you need to create to beat someone of higher rank. So a one point difference the opponent getting an inopportune Trump that they have to concentrate and refuse may be enough to turn the tide of the fight/contest but someone 30 points better can do both though it would be noticeable.


I try to make all points equivalent but that is not an easy task. Remember that 1 point is enough to by an entire shadow helps

Hope this helps.

I think it's much more entertaining if contests between closely matched opponents are not necessarily long and drawn out but are instead a bloody mess for both. (Or a psychic mess; the loser is paralyzed but the winner's right arm isn't working right, he has holes in his memory and his speech is slurred . . .)
Less Moreau versus de Maynes (in Scaramouche) and more Cpt. America vs the Winter Soldier.

[Artifacts of Amber]

I think it's much more entertaining if contests between closely matched opponents are not necessarily long and drawn out but are instead a bloody mess for both. (Or a psychic mess; the loser is paralyzed but the winner's right arm isn't working right, he has holes in his memory and his speech is slurred . . .)

RTrimmer

I agree absolutely. Just because the battle/contest in lengthy in game time in real time I still use very short descriptors and means to move the contest along. The length of time and tension can be maintained either way.

I admit this is an area I am still working on, hoping to get better.


It's helpful. I was under the impression that when a player tries to change the attribute, the other player would have an ability to stop them or something. But it's not like that?

So to break it down into a "turn" format, it would be like just having a player be able to attack, and then the other player dodging or resisting successfully would just be the attacker missing. As opposed to turning to the defending player and saying something like "he's going to do X, what do you do!"

mAcular Chaotic

To stay with in the rules in the book or as close as I can get.

It depends on the rankings to me, Someone first place in Warfare and amber Strength gets into a fight with someone 3rd ranked in Strength and much lower ranked in Warfare than his opponent, has little chance to change to avenue or type of contest. The Warfare person would see them trying and have the ability to avoid it. So the Strength guy has no chance to grab or wrestle or throw something heavy or whatever and make it a Strength contest.


If I remember the way Gerard did it was that Corwin woke up in his grip or for that matter a Strength contest. When he confronted him.  Then when he threatened him that if he broke his word said something to the effect he would get to Corwin even if he ran him through so that he would see him dead.

To me this says 1st rank in Strength versus 3-5 rank in Warfare. Warfare may hurt Gerard but not beat his Strength when he tries to make it a Strength contest.

Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.

[Panjumanju]

It's helpful. I was under the impression that when a player tries to change the attribute, the other player would have an ability to stop them or something. But it's not like that?

So to break it down into a "turn" format, it would be like just having a player be able to attack, and then the other player dodging or resisting successfully would just be the attacker missing. As opposed to turning to the defending player and saying something like "he's going to do X, what do you do!"

Get out of the turn and round format. They're artificial limitations you're placing on yourself and your ability to run things. Combat in Amber can take on a more organic process. You *can* turn to someone and say "What do you want to do about this?" when it's justified, but it's not necessarily a my-turn your-turn structure. Try to flow with it.

This is how I do it.

Bandit throws a chair (Warfare) then Strongdude smashes chair with fists (Strength). This could also be: Ruffian throws a chair (Warfare) then Strongdude smashes chair with fists AND charges forward to grab the guy (Strength).

How much you want to do, how far you're extending yourself and how complex you want to make it affects your judgement of what's happening. To just smash the chair is pretty simple, and does not require much in Strength - but to do all those activities as well, before the Bandit has a chance to respond, will require a lot more Strength (or a much higher rank in Strength, depending how you're going about this) to get all that done without being tripped, stabbed, directed into a wall or whatever else.

Swapping Attributes is just a case of what you decide to do as a player, based on what your available options are. You can get trapped in circumstances where you have no choice.

If Strongdude manages to grab the Ruffian and wrap his arms around him, and the Ruffian has no weapon, Strongdude will be matching his Strength against Ruffian's Strength (or Endurance, depending on how Ruffian chooses to respond). If Ruffian has an appropriate power word, or manages to catch Strongdude's eye (say he has a higher Psyche than Strongdude's Strength) then perhaps Ruffian could change the battlefield, so to speak. Otherwise, he's getting crushed.

Don't over-think it. It's a very easy, intuitive system, and it runs better in the moment then sitting around trying to figure it out.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

Check the rules on speed very carefully, the description quoted above is incorrect.

attribute speed

"In general, Strength is the fastest of the Attributes when characters are in a hand-to-hand clinch. Otherwise, reaction time is determined by Warfare, so a better Warfare rank determines a character's reflexes.

Finally, nothing can work faster than thought, so mental combat is fastest of all. However, there must be mind to mind contact already set up."
---pg. 95 ADRPG

thanks for that .
Mind stuff needs the link that takes time.
Still don't like some of the RAW on psyche though as they don't seem to come from the books, though I use them in a Highlanderesque way as per my example of play above.

[RTrimmer]

thanks for that .
Mind stuff needs the link that takes time.
Still don't like some of the RAW on psyche though as they don't seem to come from the books, though I use them in a Highlanderesque way as per my example of play above.

Yeah, Eric vs. Corwin via Trump was not all that fast.

[jibbajibba]

Yeah, Eric vs. Corwin via Trump was not all that fast.

that one is an oddity as Eric is deliberately dilating time so Corwin can't lead his fleet effectively.
My ruling tends to be once the mind lock is in place the only out for a PC is a strength play (if the opponet gives them an out), a power word, or a spell operated by an external source (an intelligent artifact that can rack and use spells for example and triggers a teleport).

The classic Mental link is when Benedict gets snared by Brand while he is crossint he pattern. (Benedict really is a bit of a dunce in the first series, tricked by just about everyone he meets). In this case it takes Brand a while talking to set Benedict up. Once the lock is there you get eh impression Brand could make Benedict so somethign suicidal such as step of fthe pattern but you don't get the idea that it would be quick.

[RTrimmer]

Dilating time? I don't see that at all. Mind lock and hold it. Eric's in Castle Amber presumably, what else has he got to do that's more important?

I think of psyche moves as analogous to wrestling/boxing moves instead of the Professor X, "I've pushed the paralysis button and now I'm free to do whatever" thing. A mind lock is like a wrestling hold, assault is assault, suggestion doesn't come up in the books IIRC, mindrape is beating information out of them and domination is grabbing them and moving them around. The greater the psychic superiority the more aiki-jijitsu-esque and less thuggy the technique. More astral combat, less computer virus.

Why? I think it models the books better and I think it's more fun.

As for Brand vs Ben, Brand used the Jewel of Judgment to freeze him up.

that one is an oddity as Eric is deliberately dilating time so Corwin can't lead his fleet effectively.
My ruling tends to be once the mind lock is in place the only out for a PC is a strength play (if the opponet gives them an out), a power word, or a spell operated by an external source (an intelligent artifact that can rack and use spells for example and triggers a teleport).

The classic Mental link is when Benedict gets snared by Brand while he is crossint he pattern. (Benedict really is a bit of a dunce in the first series, tricked by just about everyone he meets). In this case it takes Brand a while talking to set Benedict up. Once the lock is there you get eh impression Brand could make Benedict so somethign suicidal such as step of fthe pattern but you don't get the idea that it would be quick.