Which Advanced Power is the most Useless IYO?

[RPGPundit]

Advanced Pattern? Logrus? Trump? Shapeshift?

Which one gives the least amount of useful new abilities for the cost?

RPGPundit

[JongWK]

Question: Does "Advanced Sorcery" exist? Has it ever been proposed?

[finarvyn]

Question: Does "Advanced Sorcery" exist? Has it ever been proposed?

I don't recall if this is "rules canon" or not, but I always think of magic as being a long and twisting sequence:
1. Power Words
2. Sorcery
3. Conjuration
4. High Compelling.

So, to me Conjuration would essentially be "Advanced Sorcery".

I have thought about standardizing the spell lists for ADRP (ala D&D spell lists) and could therefore have various levels of sorcery where Sorcery-I might have access to low level spells, Sorcery-II middle level spells, and Sorcery-III high level spells, but have never actually followed through with this.

I can't even decide in my own mind if this is a good idea or not. Since Sorcery is a lesser power anyway (compared to Pattern or Logrus) is it a good idea to put such emphasis on detail? Dunno....

[Lee Short]

Advanced Pattern? Logrus? Trump? Shapeshift?

Which one gives the least amount of useful new abilities for the cost?

RPGPundit

I've never really considered the matter.  I think they are all very high bang for the buck.  Given that you could get Advanced Pattern for about the cost of Pattern + High Compelling, I know which one I'm taking.  

Since I'm a good 2000 miles from my books, I can't look for reference, but I do recall that each of Pattern, Trump, Shapeshift gives you some awesome abilities.  So I'll go with Logrus as the only viable answer :hehe:

[Lee Short]

I don't recall if this is "rules canon" or not, but I always think of magic as being a long and twisting sequence:
1. Power Words
2. Sorcery
3. Conjuration
4. High Compelling.

So, to me Conjuration would essentially be "Advanced Sorcery".

I have thought about standardizing the spell lists for ADRP (ala D&D spell lists) and could therefore have various levels of sorcery where Sorcery-I might have access to low level spells, Sorcery-II middle level spells, and Sorcery-III high level spells, but have never actually followed through with this.

I can't even decide in my own mind if this is a good idea or not. Since Sorcery is a lesser power anyway (compared to Pattern or Logrus) is it a good idea to put such emphasis on detail? Dunno....

Yeah, I too see these powers as variants on the same thing.  For the home games I have run, Conjuration is a part of Pattern.  Power Words are simply a special type of spell.  Sorcery is divided into Basic/Intermediate/Advanced.  For ease of reference, I tell players that Basic Sorcery allows them to cast spells that would be roughly 1st to 4th level AD&D, Intermediate covers 5th to 8th level, Advanced is 9th+.  With the obvious caveat that Sorcery can't intrude on the purviews of Pattern + Logrus.  This has worked pretty well as a shorthand for most players.  

And, yes, I have found that different levels of Sorcery appeals to my players.  Especially in the game that I ran that had no pattern and a greatly weakened Trump :hehe:

[Otha]

I don't think spell lists are a very good idea, at least not in any profusion.  A few spells, written out to show how they are constructed, is best, and the list in the book is more than sufficient for that.

Wow, fancy that!  Otha thinks the book is just fine the way it is.

As for the original topic, I'm really starting to think that the advice at the end of the book has a lot of merit... ditch the points.

[Arref]

I read a persuasive argument that advanced Trump abilities were really minor and better shared out as 'quirks' or stylings.

[finarvyn]

I read a persuasive argument that advanced Trump abilities were really minor and better shared out as 'quirks' or stylings.

That's actually an interesting point. I think that most Advanced powers tend to be better, but in the case of Trump often they are just different. You can do more things but not necessarily better things.

Just a thought.

[Erick Wujcik]

Advanced Pattern? Logrus? Trump? Shapeshift?

Which one gives the least amount of useful new abilities for the cost?

RPGPundit

Based on my experience, the utility of each power is very much dependent on the skill and expertise of the player.

Also, there's something to be said for rarity. If you are the only player character in the campaign with Advanced Pattern, or Logrus, or Trump, or Shapeshift, they'll tend to be worth quite a bit.

Erick

[charis]

Yeah, I too see these powers as variants on the same thing.  For the home games I have run, Conjuration is a part of Pattern.  Power Words are simply a special type of spell.  Sorcery is divided into Basic/Intermediate/Advanced.  For ease of reference, I tell players that Basic Sorcery allows them to cast spells that would be roughly 1st to 4th level AD&D, Intermediate covers 5th to 8th level, Advanced is 9th+.  With the obvious caveat that Sorcery can't intrude on the purviews of Pattern + Logrus.  This has worked pretty well as a shorthand for most players.  

And, yes, I have found that different levels of Sorcery appeals to my players.  Especially in the game that I ran that had no pattern and a greatly weakened Trump :hehe:

The way my GM has been handling Sorcery, that any big spells are pulling off of your own magical energy, so if you don't have a high enough Endurance, you can't pull off the bigger spells. Like casting a fireball as big as a mountain or something, that's a huge magical drain, so if you're endurance isn't high enough you either can't pull it off, or you can but you're going to sleep for a long time afterwards.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Crap! How often do you need a fireball as big as a mountain???

I think it's cool to have the power drain the player's energy, that's usually how I run things, but what about the energy already expanded when preparing the spell?

[JongWK]

Crap! How often do you need a fireball as big as a mountain???

As many times as it is necessary.

[RPGPundit]

The way my GM has been handling Sorcery, that any big spells are pulling off of your own magical energy, so if you don't have a high enough Endurance, you can't pull off the bigger spells. Like casting a fireball as big as a mountain or something, that's a huge magical drain, so if you're endurance isn't high enough you either can't pull it off, or you can but you're going to sleep for a long time afterwards.

That's interesting; in my campaign Power Words are obviously endurance draining, but sorcery really doesn't require much endurance.

Power Words are based on endurance in the sense that the number of power words you can say in short order is based on your endurance, shout out too many power words and you get tired.
Sorcery, on the other hand, is limited by which spells you have listed; or of course you can cast them on the fly but that takes time to do and is usually highly impractical.

Both power words and sorcery are based on Psyche as far as their effects are concerned.  So how big a fireball will be depends on how high your psyche is.

RPGPundit

[charis]

Crap! How often do you need a fireball as big as a mountain???

I think it's cool to have the power drain the player's energy, that's usually how I run things, but what about the energy already expanded when preparing the spell?

That's a good point, actually! You are using your energy/time while making the spell, so it technically shouldn't really drain you when you're just casting it! I'll have to jam with my GM about it and see what he thinks!

That's interesting; in my campaign Power Words are obviously endurance draining, but sorcery really doesn't require much endurance.

Both power words and sorcery are based on Psyche as far as their effects are concerned.  So how big a fireball will be depends on how high your psyche is.

RPGPundit

That's a cool way of doing it. It also makes a lot of sense and explains why someone low in psyche can't suddenly unleash a gigantic spell on another.