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Author Topic: [ADRP] Endurance  (Read 4118 times)

finarvyn

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[ADRP] Endurance
« on: December 02, 2006, 10:28:52 AM »
I think that an interesting discussion is whether the Endurance attribute is over-rated or under-rated. I apologize if no one finds this interesting, but I have had discussions on other Amber forums and usually find a wide variety of opinions on this issue....

Many ADRP players seem to think that Endurance is a wasted stat because it doesn't directly affect the outcome of a conflict. Certainly, Psyche, Strength, and Warfare can be closely associated with success or failure in a conflict, but Endurance seems to be worthless to many.

I would argue quite the opposite. Endurance has connections to all three of the main conflict attributes, thereby making it the most important of the four. A character can win a mind battle, swordplay, or a martial arts duel in a hurry as long as that character dominates in that attribute. But in Amber, it seems like most characters are similar in their abilities and true domination is rare. Therefore in the majority of conflicts, since there is no clear and dominant winner, the conflict should begin to default to Endurance to determine the victor.

In the ADRP rulebook, when Erick writes a simulated auction among his players, the GM tells the players that each attribute is the most important. The reader is encouraged to believe that all four are equally critical, but I think the correct answer is that Endurance is the best!

Just an opinion. :D
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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 11:04:07 AM »
Yes, to me, Endurance has two things going for it:

1. Its the great tie-breaker.

2. Its the battery that lets you power most of the Powers.

It won't save you if your opponent has a clear attribute advantage against you in whatever contest you're having, but if you're close it can give you the time you need to come up with something, or even to tire the other guy out if your End is vast superior to his.

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Otha

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 05:03:26 PM »
Endurance is only important to the extent that the GM makes it so.

There's almost never ties, because the first person to occupy a particular "rung" always has the advantage, so the concept of "tie breaker" is a slippery one.

Endurance is listed as being the battery for the powers, but not to what extent.  The GM can make Amber level endurance enough for most any task, or he can exhaust people after the most minimal power use.
 

SunBoy

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2006, 05:22:36 PM »
I only directed two auctions, but in both of them I managed to "sell" endurance as the most important one- the one with most points invested on. As a GM, I try to make it a valuable attribute, as the first placer is the only one who can really keep a straining rhytm for days on end, use powers continuosly and so on.
I mean, there's a reason why the protagonist of the novels ain't Benedict nor Fiona nor Gerry, right? Corwin wasn't only the dirtiest sonuvabitch- and yes he was, Brand was a real sport beside him- he also had the batteries to keep going, and ultimately that was one of the reasons he reached what he did. I mean, he wasn't the best swordman, nor the strongest or the mindman, but he built a whole fucking universe just with wit and gut.
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finarvyn

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2006, 09:52:53 PM »
Quote from: Otha
There's almost never ties, because the first person to occupy a particular "rung" always has the advantage, so the concept of "tie breaker" is a slippery one.

Ah, but to me a "tie" implies two combatants who are near each other, not only the case of exact equals. My reasoning is that ADRP is designed with a ranking in mind and that since there should never be two individuals with the exact same ranking, if a tie implied sameness then there would be zero point in having Endurance at all. Clearly, since Endurance is included in the "big four", it is intended to have an impact on the game.

So ... the gray area becomes a matter of how close to one another the two attributes should be before the GM rules that Endurance takes over. Is it a matter of closeness of ranks? Is it a matter of closeness of points spent? This is where the "art" of being a GM kicks in.

However, as a numbers guy I would be happier if there was some sort of guideline for me to use. Not too specific, because I don't want my players to get so hung up on the numbers that they try to min/max the game.

Either way, I like Endurance because it can assist in all three fronts of conflict resolution.
Marv / Finarvyn
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Otha

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 06:31:00 AM »
Quote from: finarvyn

So ... the gray area becomes a matter of how close to one another the two attributes should be before the GM rules that Endurance takes over. Is it a matter of closeness of ranks? Is it a matter of closeness of points spent? This is where the "art" of being a GM kicks in.

However, as a numbers guy I would be happier if there was some sort of guideline for me to use. Not too specific, because I don't want my players to get so hung up on the numbers that they try to min/max the game.


Hopefully this is an issue that can be resolved in the second edition.  Personally, I think it's one of the game's major flaws.  It can be repaired by a good GM, but that takes attention and energy away from other areas.
 

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 11:19:53 AM »
Quote from: Otha
Hopefully this is an issue that can be resolved in the second edition.  Personally, I think it's one of the game's major flaws.  It can be repaired by a good GM, but that takes attention and energy away from other areas.


No, its one of the game's strengths.  As soon as more static rules are put into place, you have rules lawyers jumping in, and players trying to manipulate the system rather than focusing on their actions as they should be.

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finarvyn

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 03:42:41 PM »
I hate to call it a "flaw", certainly, but it is one factor that makes running ADRP intimidating to the novice GM. Most games are such that a person with little RPG experience can quickly get into the game with fast-play type rules. Some games require a bit more work to get started. Amber is really hard to play at first because it's so different than most games on the market.

I look at it this way: lots of Amber GMs are quick to tell people "No, it's supposed to work this way..." but that kind of thing should be found in a rulebook someplace.

As a player of RPGs for a couple decades I owned ADRP for a couple years before I ran it. It was nothing like a traditional D&D game and I was always a bit scared to try it and botch it, and then I played in a convention game run by Erick. At that point I "got it" so much more than just by reading about it. Now it looks obvious how to play, but at first....
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James McMurray

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2006, 06:58:17 PM »
I'm far from a novice GM and the idea of it is daunting to me.

Otha

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2006, 06:13:38 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
No, its one of the game's strengths.  As soon as more static rules are put into place, you have rules lawyers jumping in, and players trying to manipulate the system rather than focusing on their actions as they should be.

RPGPundit


There's that "should" word again.
 

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2006, 08:29:24 AM »
Quote from: Otha
There's that "should" word again.


The word "should" was no where in the quote you cited?

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2006, 08:36:17 AM »
Quote from: finarvyn
I hate to call it a "flaw", certainly, but it is one factor that makes running ADRP intimidating to the novice GM. Most games are such that a person with little RPG experience can quickly get into the game with fast-play type rules. Some games require a bit more work to get started. Amber is really hard to play at first because it's so different than most games on the market.


Amber isn't meant to be for novice GMs. And in any case I've been GMing Amber since I was 16. Not particularly well (at that age) mind you, but I was doing it. So it can't be all that hard.

Learned it all by myself, too.

The problem is, the second you have the would-be author of 2nd edition coming in and saying, "ok, let's make some guidelines", you will be killing the potential freedom of the GM to set his own campaign.  If you define "if you try to do x with WAR, then y should happen", you are instantly defining something about WAR that suddenly hamstrings the GM.   It means that suddenly WAR has to be the same power level in every campaign, and thus the creativity of the GM is out the window.

If you define that "in the case of b, STR should supplant WAR as the attribute for the contest", then you will immediately have all the little rules lawyers of the world doing "b" just because they KNOW that has to be the end result, and the creativity of the player is out the window, replaced by the same kind of mechanical "actions for the sake of modifiers" that you see happening in other RPGs.

There's no way I can see of putting in the kinds of guidelines that you are talking about without killing the independence of the system and the ability to toolkit it to your liking.  Putting these kinds of rules in a new edition would make Amber a POORER game, not a better one.

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James McMurray

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2006, 10:27:58 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
The word "should" was no where in the quote you cited?

RPGPundit


Quote
No, its one of the game's strengths. As soon as more static rules are put into place, you have rules lawyers jumping in, and players trying to manipulate the system rather than focusing on their actions as they should[/i][/u] be.


It wasn't?

James McMurray

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2006, 10:30:28 AM »
Maybe a new Amber could benefit from a sourcebook of suggested guidelines? Whether you use them or not is completely up to you and your players just get told "yeah, I bought it. It had some interesting ideas. Let's get back to the game."

Arref

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[ADRP] Endurance
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2006, 10:58:56 AM »
It has been suggested elsewhere that such system guidelines could be included in the "three versions" motif that Wujcik uses for each of the elders.

Likewise three versions of other features, like 'startup' and creating backgrounds and wounds, etc.

Implicitly, it would ignite the GM's creativity and show everyone that there is not one true method.
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