TheRPGSite

Hello, I have a few questions about ADRPG. But before the questions I must say that I'm not good with English. So please answer me with basic English, like my sentences. : )

1) Do shadows contain every possibility? Every? Everything that players imagine? Is there any restriction about that? Does fairies, witches, dragons, death stars, blue police boxes, frogs which can eat Mt.Kolvir,  armies of billions men waiting to attack Amber, viruses which affect everyone except Corwin, etc. exist?

I think my other questions are same with this first question.

2) Can a player (who has pattern imprint) travel from London, to Mars or Tatooine by using pattern power? How much time will it... (err, I couldn't find the verb) Can s/he go to Japan from Spain faster than a plane? Can a player use pattern to go between places in an exact shadow, like this world we live? (Shadow Earth, I mean)

3) Let's say that Corwin shifts shadow and finds a place where he meets with Borwin and Dorwin, who look exactly like Corwin? Can Dorwin and Borwin be stronger than Corwin in all attributes? Can they shift shadow? Can they walk pattern?

4) What about time travel? Can Corwin go to Back to the Future shadow and steal DeLorean to go back in time? Or blue police box in Doctor Who. Or a spell which lets you travel in time.

5) Trump cards allows a player to reach other persons or objects. How big? How much? How many?

6) Can a player get pattern power in late game, without walking the pattern? Or with walking the pattern? (I know, we can "buy" powers but how does this work? Must player walk the pattern after spending points to get the pattern power work?)

7) Is killing an Amberite easy or have I misunderstood some rules? Can I trump-trap anyone to an owen which is 192740912874 celcius hot? Does psyche can block trump-trap? Or sorcery?

8) By the way, why shifting shadow blocks sorcery? I mean, if Corwin walks to a shadow which is the same with previous, except a coin on the ground will this shifting cancels spell?

9) I couldn't understand how Corwin gets Grayswandir. Grayswandir was in Castle Amber. Corwin walks through shadow to get Grayswandir. But the sword was in Amber, the place where shifting shadow is impossible (or really hard) Did he get a copy of Grayswandir? Or did he get Grayswandir?

I think this is a bit 'more' than a few questions. But there is no Amber player that I know here. Actually, I don't think that anyone plays Amber in my country. So I can't play ADRPG (but I'm working on it to play with my friends). So I haven't seen any Amber game.

But I would love to read a game. Where can I find?

Okay.
First, know that this can vary from GM to GM. I'm only telling you what I perceive to be the most commonly accepted answers.

1) Yes. Yes, yes and yes. The restrictions being
- Some things are less probable than others, and thus harder to find. For exemple, a virus that can kill anyone in Amber save corwin might require centuries of constant Shadow Searching. And since the characters aren't aware of this fact, they could assume it's impossible to find.
- IMO, Pattern "negates" this sometimes, fixing certain things. So anything is possible, so long as it doesn't contradict the rules of reality as set by the pattern. This might be as light or heavy as you like. For exemple, this virus might be efficient in a given shadow, but utterly useless (and even impossible to exist) in Amber.

2) London to tatooine: Yes. Time depends on skill with pattern, psyche, stuff, and the relative "distance" between the 2 shadows, which depends on their similarity: It's faster to go from our earth to Jack Bauer's than to tatooine, for exemple.
Japan to spain: Heavily GM-dependant. I'd say probably no, since shifting shadow would still have him in Japan, and going to a shadow where he's instead in japan, then coming back, might require more time.
Going between places: Sure, but you gotta exit the shadow and go far enough, then come back.

3) Stronger than corwin: Sure. Check n°1. Shift Shadow: Sure: There are creatures able to do it, so no problem here. Walking the Pattern: I'd say no. Unless one of them happens to have Amber blood. In fact, IMO, Pattern "reduces" probabilities to a set number of facts, thus countering the shadow's chaos-based infinity.

4) Mostly no. IMO, it might be possible inside a given shadow, but, outside, time has still passed (You exist the shadow after you entered it), or it is "false" time travel, where you in fact shift shadows (This is my favourite answer).

5) Depends heavily on GM's judgment. I'd use psyche as Strength lifting capacity for this.

6) Getting Pattern without walking it: No. With walking it: Yes, sure! You walk the pattern, and then spend the points/take bad stuff. If you don't, you don't know how to do things, although you might learn. Most GM use Partial Powers to simulate this: You buy shadow walking, curse ability, Hellriding... as separate abilities.

7) Hard. Very hard. But not imposssible. Trump trap: yes you can. But he has to fall into the trap, you can't just wave it at him ;). And a lot of things can block your trump trap, beginning with a simple power word.

8) It doesn't block it. It's just that physical laws vary from Shadow to Shadow. The more diverse, the more so. That's why in Star Wars shadows, there are sounds and explosions in space, and not in Shadow Earth.
So, if a given spell requires water to boil at 100°C, while in another, it boils at 110°C, your spell won't work.
For your shadow exemple, these are sufficiently close that your spell would work without problem.

9) He gets grayswandir. How? What happens if, say, eric was holding or seeing it? Well, I'll pass ;)

Quote from: Yahuda;352764Hello, I have a few questions about ADRPG. But before the questions I must say that I'm not good with English. So please answer me with basic English, like my sentences. : )

1) Do shadows contain every possibility? Every? Everything that players imagine? Is there any restriction about that? Does fairies, witches, dragons, death stars, blue police boxes, frogs which can eat Mt.Kolvir,  armies of billions men waiting to attack Amber, viruses which affect everyone except Corwin, etc. exist?

Shadow can contain everything that you mentioned; but some of these things might be much harder to find than others.

QuoteI think my other questions are same with this first question.

2) Can a player (who has pattern imprint) travel from London, to Mars or Tatooine by using pattern power? How much time will it... (err, I couldn't find the verb) Can s/he go to Japan from Spain faster than a plane? Can a player use pattern to go between places in an exact shadow, like this world we live? (Shadow Earth, I mean)

Yes, you can use pattern to do any of what you said there. How much time it takes depends on the GM somewhat, but basically the more different the place you are going to is from the place where you start, the longer it takes.
And yes, you can use pattern to travel in one shadow, and if you did so you would go faster that way than if you travelled with normal transportation.

Quote3) Let's say that Corwin shifts shadow and finds a place where he meets with Borwin and Dorwin, who look exactly like Corwin? Can Dorwin and Borwin be stronger than Corwin in all attributes? Can they shift shadow? Can they walk pattern?

Corwin is a pattern initiate, and has the real blood of amber.
Borwin and Dorwin can look exactly like Corwin, but they are not of the blood of amber, nor are they pattern initiates.
They could not walk the pattern, because they do not have that blood; if they tried they'd be destroyed.
They might be able to shift shadow in other, more inferior ways.

It is probable that they would be much weaker than Corwin in all attributes, but it is theoretically possible that they could be stronger than him too, that would just be very very strange and would probably have a reason behind it.

Quote4) What about time travel? Can Corwin go to Back to the Future shadow and steal DeLorean to go back in time? Or blue police box in Doctor Who. Or a spell which lets you travel in time.

In my game, anything in shadow which theoretically (through technology or magic) seems to take you "back in time", actually takes you to another shadow that is identical to this shadow but is in an earlier moment.
Other GMs might do it differently.
There is also a possibility of true Powers, like Tir Na Nog, being able to send one back in time in some way or another, for real.

Quote5) Trump cards allows a player to reach other persons or objects. How big? How much? How many?

How big, or many, would depend on your psyche and endurance. As well as physical realities of space/weight/mass etc, obviously. If you're trying to pull through something really heavy, Strength might also be a factor.

Quote6) Can a player get pattern power in late game, without walking the pattern? Or with walking the pattern? (I know, we can "buy" powers but how does this work? Must player walk the pattern after spending points to get the pattern power work?)

Yes, in my game at least, the player MUST walk the pattern to gain the Pattern power. Until he does, he can't gain that power, and if he can't currently walk the pattern, then its impossible for him to gain the power by just spending points.

Quote7) Is killing an Amberite easy or have I misunderstood some rules? Can I trump-trap anyone to an owen which is 192740912874 celcius hot? Does psyche can block trump-trap? Or sorcery?

In theory, it could be pretty easy to kill an Amberite. The real issue with that is the question of the intricate web of social connections that the Amberites have with each other; killing someone else, especially an amberite, should always have social consequences in the game; the most likely one of which should be that the person's allies, friends and family will all now be trying to kill you.
Plus, if you kill someone, they'll never, ever be useful to you again. Amberites put a big value on this statement.

Quote8) By the way, why shifting shadow blocks sorcery? I mean, if Corwin walks to a shadow which is the same with previous, except a coin on the ground will this shifting cancels spell?

Not necessarily, at least in my game. If a shadow is similar enough to the one the lynchpin was made for, then the spell might still work, or it might work with reduced or unusual effects. Basically, if there's a clump of shadows that are really really similar to each other, the same spell-word might work there; but if you go somewhere very different, the laws of reality are different, so the spell fails.

Quote9) I couldn't understand how Corwin gets Grayswandir. Grayswandir was in Castle Amber. Corwin walks through shadow to get Grayswandir. But the sword was in Amber, the place where shifting shadow is impossible (or really hard) Did he get a copy of Grayswandir? Or did he get Grayswandir?

Greyswandir is an item Corwin put points into; that is to say, he has a part of himself in that sword. This means that he can essentially "summon" it, find it out in shadow, because its a part of him and ultimately wants to energetically return to him.

QuoteI think this is a bit 'more' than a few questions. But there is no Amber player that I know here. Actually, I don't think that anyone plays Amber in my country. So I can't play ADRPG (but I'm working on it to play with my friends). So I haven't seen any Amber game.

What country do you live in ?

I wish you luck with starting your own Amber game, and welcome to theRPGsite!

RPGPundit

Thanks a lot for the answers. I live in Turkey. There are a lot frp players but they usually play D&D, WoD, Warhammer, etc. I'm thinking about running a test game in two months.

I'm sorry for the third question, because I think I couldn't ask the question properly. I mean, is it possible to exist a character with all powers and 10000 points of strength, endurance, psyche, warfare in a distant shadow? Is it possible that a player's shadow defeating the player? Are there big dragon armies which can conquer Amber? Are there people who can shift shadow but doesn't have Amber or Chaos blood? As a player, if I say "I want to go to a shadow where the population is full of people who are stronger than any Amberite in any ways, who will obey only me (because of their holy book, legend, etc.)" what would you say as a GM? Is it impossible or is it only hard? If I walk through slow time shadows, it will be quick enough, I think.

4) If we think time travel as shifting shadow, does it mean DeLorean can shift shadow?

Thank you, again, for the answers. You helped me a lot. : )

By the way, I must ask something that I forgot before. In Amber none of Amberites trust each other. And they usually are alone. So I think GM often talks to players secretly. Won't this be boring for other players? Won't this extend the game time? What method do you use?

Quote from: Yahuda;352883Thanks a lot for the answers. I live in Turkey. There are a lot frp players but they usually play D&D, WoD, Warhammer, etc. I'm thinking about running a test game in two months.

I'm sorry for the third question, because I think I couldn't ask the question properly. I mean, is it possible to exist a character with all powers and 10000 points of strength, endurance, psyche, warfare in a distant shadow? Is it possible that a player's shadow defeating the player? Are there big dragon armies which can conquer Amber? Are there people who can shift shadow but doesn't have Amber or Chaos blood? As a player, if I say "I want to go to a shadow where the population is full of people who are stronger than any Amberite in any ways, who will obey only me (because of their holy book, legend, etc.)" what would you say as a GM? Is it impossible or is it only hard? If I walk through slow time shadows, it will be quick enough, I think.

4) If we think time travel as shifting shadow, does it mean DeLorean can shift shadow?

Thank you, again, for the answers. You helped me a lot. : )

There will be things that are much tougher than Amberites but they will be limited to a shadow or range of shadows. I generally say that the more 'points' a thing costs (ie the tougher it is) the more limited the shadows it can work in. Now the game uses a points system that doubles for each rank. so a thing with human strength might be 1 point, Chaos rank is 2, amber 4. To get as good as corwin at Strength might be 8 points to be as good as Gerard, the epitome of Strength might be as many as 32 points. to get something with 10,000 points of strength would probably come in at 256 points or something daft like that that would be for each stat so .... maybe a 1024 point creature to max out all the stats. Now this would 1024 days to shadow walk to on top of all that as I said the chances are that this creature would only have these stats in a very very narrow range of shadows.
Generally no Amberite would bother to find such a creature not just because of the effort involved but also because few Amberites actually go looking for things that they can't control and that might kill them. Adding these facts together the existance or not of such a creature becomes moot.
You could find an army of such obediant creature ready to serve but ... more points and there would have to be a bloody good reason why they would serve you once they meet you and find out their Holy Book made you seem a lot tougher than you are in real life.

As for Shifting shadow as Pundit and Croaker pointed out you may well find a creature with some sort of inferior shadow walking power but The Pattern seems to be the key to moving between shadows (although in the books the ability to move through shadows with Logrus is ill-defined and perhaps not internally consistant) and only the decendants of Dworkin can walk the Pattern.

I can see that an army of dragons might be raised. I had an army of angels attack amber this one time. The limits are really those already outlined. Which are that the tougher something is the more it costs and the narrower the range of shadows it will work in so a dragon that maintained it's powers in Amber would be extra hard to find and the route to get it to Amber would be a long and complex one. Also Amber has plenty of defense that could beat dragons.

4) Time travel is interesting. I think you could find a shadow were time travel worked and there were DeLoreans or Police boxes or Temporal rifts controled by a series of portals or whatever, but time travel would be within that shadow and I think that the flow of time beyond the shadow would be relative to the time traveller not the shadow although it would be fun to play with time lines. I have allowed new powers to be developed that can influece time in my games allowing players to subtly manipulate it can get complex though so a risky endeavour and not for the novice.
Because of this answer I would say a Delorean can not shift shadow but I think you could build a delorean that could shift shadow if you wanted to :)

Quote from: Yahuda;352883Thanks a lot for the answers. I live in Turkey. There are a lot frp players but they usually play D&D, WoD, Warhammer, etc. I'm thinking about running a test game in two months.

Wow, Turkey! Between the coffee and the meerschaum pipes I'm envious. Though really, I have good turkish coffee and own a couple of very lovely turkish meerschaum pipes right here...

QuoteI'm sorry for the third question, because I think I couldn't ask the question properly. I mean, is it possible to exist a character with all powers and 10000 points of strength, endurance, psyche, warfare in a distant shadow? Is it possible that a player's shadow defeating the player? Are there big dragon armies which can conquer Amber? Are there people who can shift shadow but doesn't have Amber or Chaos blood? As a player, if I say "I want to go to a shadow where the population is full of people who are stronger than any Amberite in any ways, who will obey only me (because of their holy book, legend, etc.)" what would you say as a GM? Is it impossible or is it only hard? If I walk through slow time shadows, it will be quick enough, I think.

4) If we think time travel as shifting shadow, does it mean DeLorean can shift shadow?

Thank you, again, for the answers. You helped me a lot. : )

Ok, to answer these questions; there is a difference in amber between what is Real, and what is Shadow. Think of it like you would platonic philosophy; that out there, somewhere (in our case, in Amber) there exists THE One True Chair; that Chair is real. Every other chair is a shadow of that perfect chair, a poor copy, a reflection, and more like an after-image.
Now, you can have relatively powerful shadows, but one thing they can't have just-so is any REAL power. Someone with real power might give them real power, but they won't have it just by accident.
So you could go out into shadow and find a shadow where IN THAT SHADOW there was a hero who was 1st ranked in all attributes, and had cheap in-shadow equivalents of the pattern or logrus, that worked only in that weird shadow.  He might be a pretty dangerous person; but he would not be real. And if you do have reality, if you are a Pattern initiate or a Logrus master, you can alter the rules of the world, or take the guy out of that world, or do any number of other things that would cut him off from his power.

There are big dragon armies out in shadow, without a doubt. They might be very tough; and if an amberite or chaosian or even a shadow-person with a good Warfare were to lead them, they might be able to attack amber. But they'd have to get to Amber first. Travelling from one shadow (one universe) to another requires something of REALITY. If they are just shadows and have nothing real to them, they could never reach amber to conquer it.
Now, if you have someone with Pattern, the dragon army could be lead by him toward Amber. That person would have to have a very high level of Warfare, though, to organize that many dragons all travelling through shadow at the same time; or else many of them would get lost in the tricky parts of shadow, die of starvation, start to fight each other, etc.
Also, there would be many shadows where the "rules" of nature in that shadow would say "Dragons can't exist here"; so many of the dragons would fall ill or die, unless the person took a very careful and cautious route around these places.

You can see how leading an army to Amber is harder than it looks.

Anyone who doesn't have amber or Chaos blood can only shift shadow by indirect means or by borrowing something of Real power. What I mean is that they can follow the path of someone who is shifting shadow with pattern. Or they might be able to find and follow a shadow trail, a permanent path between two or three or a few dozen shadows at most that were formed there by constant travel by an Amberite, long ago. They might be able to get an item that has real power in it (points), that lets them follow or or make shadow paths. They might get initiated into the Broken Pattern. Or they may be able to use trumps. All of these things will, at most, give them very limited capacity to travel between shadows, either limited in range or in numbers.

And yes, a time machine would really be a machine that could somehow shift shadow, but only to shadows that were identical to the original shadow only set in different times.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;353050And yes, a time machine would really be a machine that could somehow shift shadow, but only to shadows that were identical to the original shadow only set in different times.

Agree with the rest but not sure about this one I think the timeline is an element of a shadow and I can see shadows where travellign the timeline is possible within that shadow.

Yahuda, you will find out that there are as many opinions on Corner Case rules in amber as there are GMs :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;353059Yahuda, you will find out that there are as many opinions on Corner Case rules in amber as there are GMs :)

That really doesn't matter, because I have learnt a lot. And I'll learn a lot. : )  The reason behind these questions is I want to be able to answer my players if they ask questions like these.

Quote from: RPGPundit;353050Ok, to answer these questions; there is a difference in amber between what is Real, and what is Shadow. Think of it like you would platonic philosophy; that out there, somewhere (in our case, in Amber) there exists THE One True Chair; that Chair is real. Every other chair is a shadow of that perfect chair, a poor copy, a reflection, and more like an after-image.
Now, you can have relatively powerful shadows, but one thing they can't have just-so is any REAL power. Someone with real power might give them real power, but they won't have it just by accident.

Thanks, this part helped me understand. I thought that everything I can imagine exist in shadow. But I understand now that imaginations of mine must be adequate to this "reality" law. So, shadows don't contain all the imaginations. They contain adequate ones. (Am I right? )

Quote from: jibbajibba;353059Agree with the rest but not sure about this one I think the timeline is an element of a shadow and I can see shadows where travellign the timeline is possible within that shadow.

What about shadows that their time works backwards? Like "One Shadow Hour = -2 Amber Hours"

Turkey is a nice country, not great but nice. : )

Quote from: Yahuda;352892By the way, I must ask something that I forgot before. In Amber none of Amberites trust each other. And they usually are alone. So I think GM often talks to players secretly. Won't this be boring for other players? Won't this extend the game time? What method do you use?

Well, this sometimes can be a problem. There are two things to keep in mind: first, Amber is not like many other games, there's lots of times when the other players may have nothing to do who are not in a "scene" at that time. So it should be considered allowable for those other players to read/do something else quietly, as long as it doesn't disrupt the play going on.

Second, there are many shorter things that can be resolved by sending notes, instead of taking the GM aside. Remember to encourage players to send notes for private things, and only do private meetings if it can't be resolved with a note.

Finally, if you do notice that one player is taking you aside for something that isn't actually private, that is to say, that it doesn't really matter if the other players hear what's going on, you should ask that player about it, and if they don't really have a good reason why they think it should be private, you should probably make them do it in public. But be careful with this, err on the side of caution, if the Player has a reason that is important to him to keep things private, its better to keep things private.

RPGPundit

Pundit's advice is sound. My players had a friendly, yet "in your face", way to try and keep those private interludes short: they'd just start yelling from the main room "you're hogging the GM" after 5 minutes. And indeed there should be a time limit on those interludes. Scenes where most players can at the very least listen should have priority on private operations.

It is, for me, the biggest problem with Amber DRPG played at a table. If a new version of the game was to see the light some day (keep on dreaming) there should be a chapter addressing it. What would be cool is a survey of GMs from Amber cons to gather what are their perspective on this. I know I wouldn't start a game with more than 4 or 5 players anymore. It just grinds to a halt so often, unless you're sticking the PCs in some shadow where they can't escape, but it can't last forever...

Quote from: Yahuda;352764How much time will it... (err, I couldn't find the verb)

Just if you are curious, we say, "How much time will it take?"

I hope you get a game going. I played Amber years ago, and wish I could play again. :)

Brian

Quote from: Yahuda;352764Hello, I have a few questions about ADRPG. But before the questions I must say that I'm not good with English. So please answer me with basic English, like my sentences. : )


9) I couldn't understand how Corwin gets Grayswandir. Grayswandir was in Castle Amber. Corwin walks through shadow to get Grayswandir. But the sword was in Amber, the place where shifting shadow is impossible (or really hard) Did he get a copy of Grayswandir? Or did he get Grayswandir?

My answer to this is that Grayswandir is an intrinsic element which defines Corwin, much like Kolvir and Arden are intrinsic elements that define Amber. One cannot arrive at Amber traveling through Shadow without also including Kolvir and Arden. Much the same, Corwin is not complete without Grayswandir, and he can, by exerting his power over Shadow, bring the two parts that define himself together. Actually, anyone with Pattern imprint could conceivably do it, as apparently Random does on the drive to Amber in NPIA. "Did you think it lost forever?" he asks Corwin when he discovers a sword which must be Grayswandir in the back seat of Flora's car. Of course, it's much easier to add that item to Corwin's identity than to remove it through normal Shadow manipulation. Taking it away is much harder.

In game terms, yes, he spent points on it.

Wow, that's a pretty esoteric intepretation.

RPGPundit

But I like it. Moreso, IIRC, it echoes the ADRPG description of paid items as "parts of your personnal reality"

Quote from: Yahuda;352883I mean, is it possible to exist a character with all powers and 10000 points of strength, endurance, psyche, warfare in a distant shadow? Is it possible that a player's shadow defeating the player? Are there big dragon armies which can conquer Amber? Are there people who can shift shadow but doesn't have Amber or Chaos blood?

In shadow, if you can imagine it, it exists someplace.  So I would answer your question with a yes.  But remember, there is a divide between OOC and IC determinations on what is in shadow.  To say, as a player, your character is seeking out a shadow where the denizens are all at around 1000 points in strength, Endurance, Psyche and warfare is not really a description I as a GM would allow for your character to locate anything.  After all, you would be using descriptors that have no meaning inside the game.   You could tell the GM your character was seeking a shadow where giants ruled the world and played baseball with boulders.  Thats a shadow your character could find.  You could say you sought a shadow ruled by giant dragons that breathed nuclear radiation.  And you could find a shadow where your character had a shadow self, bigger and stronger then himself.  However, as powerful as these creatures might be, they would likely never pose a true threat to Amber as they would lack any real method of reaching Amber.  Shadows are like parallel dimensions, they can be right on top of us and yet completely unreachable as they do not connect in a way that is spatially or even temporally meaningful for a creature capable of moving only within 3 or 4 dimensions.  For this reason, a true Amberite of the blood must personally lead their army when marching through shadow.  They must open a way through shadow which their host can then follow.  Chaosians tend to do this with Black Roads or channels.

Now, assuming that one of these shadows found a means to march their powerful army through shadow and to eventually face Amber itself(and based on the books, Zelazny makes mention that just such events do occasionally happen), they still must get their army from point A--their shadow, to point Z--Amber.  Amberites can throw any number of obstacles in the path of such an army and through sheer attrition, whittle that army down to a manageable threat by the time the enemy makes it to the foot of Kolvir or the forest of Arden.  There is a saying, there is always someone bigger.  So why not make that powerful army march through a hostile shadow, or series of shadows inhabited by even bigger baddies?  Or just keep throwing shadows in their path until they either die of old age or simply give up.  The resources open to the Eternal City are many (we wont even mention what the Jewel of Judgement allows in Amber's defense).

 

QuoteAs a player, if I say "I want to go to a shadow where the population is full of people who are stronger than any Amberite in any ways, who will obey only me (because of their holy book, legend, etc.)" what would you say as a GM? Is it impossible or is it only hard? If I walk through slow time shadows, it will be quick enough, I think.

I'd say, no problem!  And you'd likely find that shadow.  Though as a GM, I would want to know exactly what ways they should be stronger.  Then if you decided to use that army of zealots, please refer back up to where I mention what usually happens to armies marching on Amber:)

If you opted to stay, then that would be good too.  If your character is fine with ruling a shadow of the real thing, more power to him and long may he reign.

Quote4) If we think time travel as shifting shadow, does it mean DeLorean can shift shadow?

I'm in the camp that says space and time are one fabric and in shadow they only have one direction.  Straight ahead.  For this reason, Corwin can never reclaim what he lost with his first Avalon.  He can find a near perfect shadow of it, but not "it".  Thus when you move back in time, you are traveling to adjacent shadows in an earlier timeline.

QuoteThanks, this part helped me understand. I thought that everything I can imagine exist in shadow. But I understand now that imaginations of mine must be adequate to this "reality" law. So, shadows don't contain all the imaginations. They contain adequate ones. (Am I right? )

Now this is an interesting point you raise, Corwin mentions that all Amberites reach a point in shadow, past which they can go no further.  Is this because, they can travel "only" to those shadows they can imagine?  I believe it is.  Thus a limited imagination means a limited amount of traveling space.  And now if we take this a step further, into a macro perception of what lies out in shadow, we can say that as a whole, the Amberites have set standards upon what they are willing to believe or imagine.  They are careful, as well not to imbibe anything that can let their imagination run too wild.  We see the effects of a bad acid trip on Luke.  He and Corwin are nearly killed by a frumious bandersnatch down in the rabbit hole!

But, what if their collective conscious only allows for a finite amount of circumstances?  Why then you could easily say that some shadows just don't fit the mold.  

As for time, well, time is it's own hairy mess and Corwin surmises that understanding all of it's ins and outs may have started Dworkin down the road to insanity.  In a nutshell though, time, like space can take many forms.  It can run much faster then that in Amber--much like the rapid run of time within Narnia, where C.S. Lewis had his children protagonists grow into adulthood and yet still return to their earth after only a few minutes.  Such shadows are great for when you need to heal a wound or finish reading Moby Dick before going to the Amber book-of-the-month meeting.

Anyway, hope this helps:)

Thanks for all the answers, they will help me next week, when I'm GM'ing an ADRP game in our monthly convention named Wizards of İstanbul (http://wizardsofistanbul.com/). They never heard ADRP or any diceless system, so it'll be interesting for all of us there. : )

But in few weeks I have learnt that preparing a scenario for an ADRP game is a little bit hard and different. Wish me good luck. : )

Quote from: Yahuda;365008I have learned that preparing a scenario for an ADRP game is a little bit hard and different.

Agreed. Amber Diceless is both a simple and complex game at the same time. It's a simple game in that it has very direct and non-complex rules. It's a complex game in that interpretation of those rules can go in so many directions, and is only limited by imagination.

In other words, you could take the core rules from the ADRP and SK rulebooks and compress them into a small number of pages. Most of the rules are actually examples. At the same time, however, if you haven't read and thought about the examples then you won't quite know how to make the game flow smoothly.

Very tricky sometimes.

Quote from: Yahuda;352764But I would love to read a game. Where can I find?

If you want to read a game I have a recommendation for you: Through a Mirror Darkly (http://thekeep.org/~wombat/AmberRPG/Utena/index.html) is an online Amber campaign. It has two sequels, Unicorn no Seishi (http://thekeep.org/~wombat/AmberRPG/UnicornSeishi/index.html) and Forth the Nine Riders (http://thekeep.org/~wombat/AmberRPG/NineRiders/index.html), with the PCs in each game being the children of the previous generation.

The massive logs from Through a Mirror Darkly (http://thekeep.org/~wombat/AmberRPG/Utena/logs.html) and Unicorn no Seishi (http://thekeep.org/~wombat/AmberRPG/UnicornSeishi/logs.html) were actually my introduction to ADRPG. They contain a lot of discussion between the players and the GM and are very helpful for someone learning the game. One player in "Through A Mirror Darkly," Hiko the Firechild is completely new to ADRPG so I would start with her logs.

http://www.skyseastone.net/amberlinks/ (http://www.skyseastone.net/amberlinks/) also has links to a lot of campaigns and other resources, but none with logs as good as "Through a Mirror Darkly" and it's sequel.

Seconded. "Through a Mirror Darkly" is an excellent website. Lots of rules and explanations. Well organized. Definitely one of my favorites!

Quote from: jibbajibba;352911There will be things that are much tougher than Amberites but they will be limited to a shadow or range of shadows. I generally say that the more 'points' a thing costs (ie the tougher it is) the more limited the shadows it can work in. Now the game uses a points system that doubles for each rank. so a thing with human strength might be 1 point, Chaos rank is 2, amber 4. To get as good as corwin at Strength might be 8 points to be as good as Gerard, the epitome of Strength might be as many as 32 points. to get something with 10,000 points of strength would probably come in at 256 points or something daft like that that would be for each stat so .... maybe a 1024 point creature to max out all the stats. Now this would 1024 days to shadow walk to on top of all that as I said the chances are that this creature would only have these stats in a very very narrow range of shadows.

Actually the ADRPG book lists "Exalted Vitality" (page 119 of my book, under the heading of "Extending Artifact and Creature Potential") as giving the level of strength of Gerard, and that goes for 16 points. Although the book also mentions that those extra options are "not available to player characters."

But I'd argue that the points you mention are more for more for a "special enhancement," and something that would work almost anywhere. IMO you don't have to deal with the 16 point "Exalted Vitality," if you want to find some thing like a big machine, a big elephant, or a whale.

If you like, you are welcome to see the logs from my own online Amber campaign, Reflections of Amber, now running over a year and getting ready to hit the 4,ooo post mark.

I'm actually gearing up to start a second campaign over on my own website http://dgsforum.freeforums.org/ , entitled, A Darker Shade of Amber.

Quote from: Yahuda;352883Are there big dragon armies which can conquer Amber?

For me, that kind of question has always been a big deal in regard to playing in Amber.

If Corwin could really find any kind of army that he could imagine out in Shadow, those little blue furry guys don't seem all that effective.

And the arguments put forward as to why he couldn't found a more powerful army never fully make sense (at least not IMO).

Obviously a big part of it is that a lot of stuff will not work in Amber. It may be easy to go out and find an army of Jedi knights, but their force abilities and light-sabers are not going to work in Amber. Still, from the books it is pretty clear that a number of more powerful entities (magical ones, such as dragons) can exist in Amber. And, for more "human-like characters" with hyper-exceptional skill, I'm not sure that abilities such as mega-human levels of combat skill are as easy to have malfunction as gun-powder.

Arguments about the logistics of having an Amberite guide the dragon army to Amber are an interesting topic to explore. However, given that Amber level Warfare is supposed to be above the best human military minds, I'd think those problems could be overcome by most Amber PCs. It shouldn't take too much, by Amber Warfare standards, to lead them through Shadow without having the dragons wander off, starve, or kill each other (especially if you picked the right kind of dragons, meaning ones which had some sense of discipline).

I cannot speak for Zelazny, but I always interpreted it as this.  Magic does not work in Amber.  It's a great irony, I know, but then so is the fact that the one power that sets Amberites above shadows, also does not work in Amber.  I see magic as just another manipulation of shadow physics and you cannot manipulate the physics of Amber.  Dragons are in their very being, creatures composed of magic.  They defy reason.  Not just their breath, but they themselves.  The further out from the Pattern, the closer one gets to Chaos.  Therefore I say mythical creatures reside on the outer boundries of Amber's influence.   Try to bring them in close to the Eternal City and they simply die or disappear even as most magic gives out.

That said, the next arguement I predict is that if this is the case, why then could manticores make it to Arden?  Perhaps because they trod the Black Road and that road afforded them protection.  

But, we saw a manticore attack Corwin from Arden off the black road!  Maybe, the black road affords enough protection for short stints off of it?  In the end we know one thing,  We see very few sorcerers in Amber when compared to the Courts.  Fiona might be a great sorcerous, but really, how often does she demonstrate such ability in Amber itself?  Corwin, himself, says though, a sharp length of steel works pretty much anywhere.  A bullet that fires is truly devestating against plain troops of medieval tech.   A short furry zealot willing to die for his god and possessing a trigger finger adds to a gun.  A lot.  Dragons that either die halfway to Amber or cannot hold a gun after their magical breath weapon gives out, is less useful.

Thats my explanation.

Or maybe it's because he can get 10,000 of the suicidal ewoks and arm them with M-16s.  Conversely, he can get 100 dragons (Dragons being ego driven and notorious loners).  Given a choice, I'd take the suicidal ewoks armed with automatic weapons.

Quote from: Rook;365661I cannot speak for Zelazny, but I always interpreted it as this.  Magic does not work in Amber.  It's a great irony, I know, but then so is the fact that the one power that sets Amberites above shadows, also does not work in Amber.  I see magic as just another manipulation of shadow physics and you cannot manipulate the physics of Amber.  Dragons are in their very being, creatures composed of magic.  They defy reason.  Not just their breath, but they themselves.  The further out from the Pattern, the closer one gets to Chaos.  Therefore I say mythical creatures reside on the outer boundries of Amber's influence.   Try to bring them in close to the Eternal City and they simply die or disappear even as most magic gives out.

I like that explanation, although you have to ignore a bunch of stuff in the Merlin series for that theory to be true. In the second series, Merlin, Mandor, and others, were able to pull off magic inside castle Amber.

But, off hand, I can't think of any specific instances in the Corwin series which really violate the concept that magic couldn't work in Amber. Trump power clearly works in Amber, and Brand was able to pull off some sort of magical type tricks (but that could be connected to his "Living Trump" status).

Still, even putting magic and dragons aside, there are a number of other options for cool troops that an Amberite could use for an assault on Amber. A culture which has developed sword fighting to totally insane levels comes to mind. An army composed of hyper intelligent, tool using Velociraptors, could be pretty interesting too.

Part of the issue becomes what actually works in Amber. Electricity apparently doesn't work in Amber, but lighting works, and the impulses in people's nerve cells still apparently function. Would an electric eel still have its qualities in Amber? If so, it might be possible to find other creatures in Shadow with more interesting variations on the electric eel abilities.

Sound still works in Amber, and it might be possible to find some creatures with some interesting sonic attacks.

The magic doesn't work idea is a bit thin. The reason why we don't see magic in Amber in the corwin saga is becuase we don't see any magic aside from the hotfoot Corwin gives Stalgwdyr (sorry can't recall the spelling). There is no magic anywhere. If we accept magic we are accepting the Merlin saga. In this case you have to accept that there are pet dragons and that amndor and Merlin cast spells in amber with no hindrance. The other option is to remove magic entirely.
Having said that you still have the Weir that server Eric and they are as magical as a dragon surely?

As for asaulting Amber. I have done it with a horde of angels, winged and 8 feet tall, an army of rats that bring a varaition of the plague crossed with ebola and a Kraken.

Quote from: jibbajibba;365679The magic doesn't work idea is a bit thin. The reason why we don't see magic in Amber in the corwin saga is becuase we don't see any magic aside from the hotfoot Corwin gives Stalgwdyr (sorry can't recall the spelling). There is no magic anywhere. If we accept magic we are accepting the Merlin saga.

In this case you have to accept that there are pet dragons and that amndor and Merlin cast spells in amber with no hindrance. The other option is to remove magic entirely.

I've known Amber GMs who do try to throw out the Merlin saga, even though the Amber DRPG clearly incorporates aspects of the second series. The existence of the Merlin series does raise some big questions about why things happened the way they did in the first series. So it might make it easier if you did want to throw that stuff out.

I couldn't actually see doing that myself. Getting rid of the Merlin series doesn't get rid of all the problems, and the second series added some interesting stuff to the Amber Universe. Those things are a part of what I think of as "Amber."

Quote from: jibbajibba;365679Having said that you still have the Weir that server Eric and they are as magical as a dragon surely?

If Trump is a power and not magic,
and if Pattern is a power, and not magic,
and if Shape Shifting is a power and not magic. . .
. . . then it is possible that the weir were not actually "magic" based.

They also were encountered at a point somewhere out side the center of Amber, not all that long after Corwin and Random had dumped their car. So it might be possible to argue that such creatures couldn't exist in the heart of Amber (although, as has been pointed out this is something with is totally contradicted in the Merlin series).

Quote from: jibbajibba;365679As for asaulting Amber. I have done it with a horde of angels, winged and 8 feet tall, an army of rats that bring a varaition of the plague crossed with ebola and a Kraken.

Moving on to a question relating to something you said earlier about paying points for these things. . . .

Did you stat them out, as having specific qualities listed in the Amber DRPG book? Or did you assume that, as the book says, "the basic creature or item is free, no matter how exotic it is," and that many of the qualities of an 8 foot tall winged angel would simply come free, as being "natural" to such an exotic creature?

Quote from: warp9;365604If Corwin could really find any kind of army that he could imagine out in Shadow, those little blue furry guys don't seem all that effective.

And the arguments put forward as to why he couldn't found a more powerful army never fully make sense (at least not IMO).

Obviously a big part of it is that a lot of stuff will not work in Amber. It may be easy to go out and find an army of Jedi knights, but their force abilities and light-sabers are not going to work in Amber. Still, from the books it is pretty clear that a number of more powerful entities (magical ones, such as dragons) can exist in Amber. And, for more "human-like characters" with hyper-exceptional skill, I'm not sure that abilities such as mega-human levels of combat skill are as easy to have malfunction as gun-powder.

Arguments about the logistics of having an Amberite guide the dragon army to Amber are an interesting topic to explore. However, given that Amber level Warfare is supposed to be above the best human military minds, I'd think those problems could be overcome by most Amber PCs. It shouldn't take too much, by Amber Warfare standards, to lead them through Shadow without having the dragons wander off, starve, or kill each other (especially if you picked the right kind of dragons, meaning ones which had some sense of discipline).

My take on this.

Shadow is based on Amber, only worse (since the copy is inferior to the original).
So, the "base" shadow will be like amber, but with, well, human stats everywhere. Shadow animals will also be slower and less dangerous than their amberites equivalents (like the difference between a non-amberite resident of Amber and a shadow human).

That's the base. And then, everytime you deviate from this, it gets less and less probable, and thus more and more difficult (and maybe dangerous) to find.

So, finding basic humans with human stats is easy. Finding humans with better stats (like your jedi army) is harder. The more you go towards amber-equivalent, the less probable it is. And above Amber? it gets a lot worse.

Note also that your jedi knights? They might have been Chaos rank: Most of their talents comes more from the Force than anything else (including using it to enhance reflexes, maybe by a 6th-sense effect). So, outside of their shadow, they might have been actually WORSE than the blue guys, with mostly human stats and a lot of bad reflexes (like expecting all those nifty force enhancements to work).

Likewise, finding a Dragon (even more, an obedient one) is possible, although difficult. Finding an army becomes next to impossible, because it's so darn improbable.

That's my take, at least.

Quote from: warp9;365940I've known Amber GMs who do try to throw out the Merlin saga, even though the Amber DRPG clearly incorporates aspects of the second series. The existence of the Merlin series does raise some big questions about why things happened the way they did in the first series. So it might make it easier if you did want to throw that stuff out.

I couldn't actually see doing that myself. Getting rid of the Merlin series doesn't get rid of all the problems, and the second series added some interesting stuff to the Amber Universe. Those things are a part of what I think of as "Amber."


If Trump is a power and not magic,
and if Pattern is a power, and not magic,
and if Shape Shifting is a power and not magic. . .
. . . then it is possible that the weir were not actually "magic" based.

They also were encountered at a point somewhere out side the center of Amber, not all that long after Corwin and Random had dumped their car. So it might be possible to argue that such creatures couldn't exist in the heart of Amber (although, as has been pointed out this is something with is totally contradicted in the Merlin series).



Moving on to a question relating to something you said earlier about paying points for these things. . . .

Did you stat them out, as having specific qualities listed in the Amber DRPG book? Or did you assume that, as the book says, "the basic creature or item is free, no matter how exotic it is," and that many of the qualities of an 8 foot tall winged angel would simply come free, as being "natural" to such an exotic creature?

Stated them out, as you note some thing are rare and so you need to have a method of working out how rare and that would be the points. however they would have had some extra points like they had more than human srtrength and endurance but I bundled that in as I costed the flight at 4.

Angelic Horde

Amber ranked Combat (4)
Hardened Armour (1)
Flight - adopted from movement rules (4)
Shadow Wide (x4) (Horde didn't give enough for an army)
36 points.

Quote from: jibbajibba;365987Stated them out, as you note some thing are rare and so you need to have a method of working out how rare and that would be the points.

If points represent how rare and exotic stuff is. . . . How many points would it cost to find a typical D&D type world? (If you actually stated it out that would be a lot of exotic stuff: angles, and demons, and dragons, and djinni, and gods, and magic items of all sorts)

Quote from: warp9;366037If points represent how rare and exotic stuff is. . . . How many points would it cost to find a typical D&D type world? (If you actually stated it out that would be a lot of exotic stuff: angles, and demons, and dragons, and djinni, and gods, and magic items of all sorts)

Tricky one. I probably wouldn't do shadows in that way I would use somethgin akin to my Shadow profiler. of course my model is that if you find a shadow the GM controls all teh stuff in that shadow to alter stuff there you need to manipulate it or move to adjacent shadows were things are different.  And angel speaking you would be better off finding a shadow of heaven than trying to find and anglic horde in a D&D world (which is where thye found that army of Angles ...obviously :) )

Quote from: warp9;366037If points represent how rare and exotic stuff is. . . . How many points would it cost to find a typical D&D type world? (If you actually stated it out that would be a lot of exotic stuff: angles, and demons, and dragons, and djinni, and gods, and magic items of all sorts)

It'd take time, but not nescessarily much, as these are not cross shadow and not tha different from Amber.

How to put it?

Say, there's this universe where angels have supernatural hearing, because of some shadow law. Outside from it? They lose this, and have just "normal" hearing. This is the "reality" of your angel, and is what matters most. Rules-wise, he's just a normal human that benefits from local shadow rules granting it awesome powers.
If your angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow, then they're more real, and thus a lot more rare.
Likewise, taken out of his earth, Superman is just a normal human, just like when exposed to kryptonite. So a DC Comics earth is difficult to find (because it's very different from Amber), but not impossible

Things work the same for magical and technological items.

A D&D shadow were everything was real enough to be taken out there and work everywhere would "cost" a lot of points in C&A and items, shadow-wide, and be also a lot more rare than a normal D&D shadow

Quote from: jibbajibba;366053Tricky one. I probably wouldn't do shadows in that way I would use somethgin akin to my Shadow profiler. of course my model is that if you find a shadow the GM controls all teh stuff in that shadow to alter stuff there you need to manipulate it or move to adjacent shadows were things are different.  And angel speaking you would be better off finding a shadow of heaven than trying to find and anglic horde in a D&D world (which is where thye found that army of Angles ...obviously :) )

added on edit: I apologize if I come off as too intense with the persistent questions, but the Amber DRPG item rules have always been of interest to me. . . .

Let me ask my question another way. . . .

Let us say that you are the GM. And I am a player who comes to you with my character's 1 point personal shadow. In this Shadow, my character is the king/emperor/god, and there are all sorts of loyal creatures which have great powers and skills (or at least they have great powers in that Shadow). Do I get this personal Shadow for 1 point?

Quote from: Croaker;366063It'd take time, but not nescessarily much, as these are not cross shadow and not tha different from Amber.

How to put it?

Say, there's this universe where angels have supernatural hearing, because of some shadow law. Outside from it? They lose this, and have just "normal" hearing. This is the "reality" of your angel, and is what matters most. Rules-wise, he's just a normal human that benefits from local shadow rules granting it awesome powers.
If your angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow, then they're more real, and thus a lot more rare.

I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Quote from: Croaker;366063Likewise, taken out of his earth, Superman is just a normal human, just like when exposed to kryptonite. So a DC Comics earth is difficult to find (because it's very different from Amber), but not impossible

Things work the same for magical and technological items.

A D&D shadow were everything was real enough to be taken out there and work everywhere would "cost" a lot of points in C&A and items, shadow-wide, and be also a lot more rare than a normal D&D shadow

Again, I basically agree with the above but a part of this line of questioning relates to the following statement :

Quote from: jibbajibba;352911There will be things that are much tougher than Amberites but they will be limited to a shadow or range of shadows. I generally say that the more 'points' a thing costs (ie the tougher it is) the more limited the shadows it can work in. Now the game uses a points system that doubles for each rank. so a thing with human strength might be 1 point, Chaos rank is 2, amber 4. To get as good as corwin at Strength might be 8 points to be as good as Gerard, the epitome of Strength might be as many as 32 points. to get something with 10,000 points of strength would probably come in at 256 points or something daft like that that would be for each stat so .... maybe a 1024 point creature to max out all the stats. Now this would 1024 days to shadow walk to on top of all that as I said the chances are that this creature would only have these stats in a very very narrow range of shadows.

(my emphasis with the bold text)

Here we have the philosophy that Superman would cost major points AND his powers would only work in a very limited setting. That is something which I do not agree with.


I have no problem with the concept that Superman's powers cost no points and that those powers are also very restricted concerning where they work.

However, I think that, if something does cost points, it should work in a fairly wide range of areas. IMO that "only works in its local area" business is for stuff that costs no points.

Quote from: warp9;366082added on edit: I apologize if I come off as too intense with the persistent questions, but the Amber DRPG item rules have always been of interest to me. . . .

Let me ask my question another way. . . .

Let us say that you are the GM. And I am a player who comes to you with my character's 1 point personal shadow. In this Shadow, my character is the king/emperor/god, and there are all sorts of loyal creatures which have great powers and skills (or at least they have great powers in that Shadow). Do I get this personal Shadow for 1 point?

I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Again, I basically agree with the above but a part of this line of questioning relates to the following statement :
 (my emphasis with the bold text)

Here we have the philosophy that Superman would cost major points AND his powers would only work in a very limited setting. That is something which I do not agree with.


I have no problem with the concept that Superman's powers cost no points and that those powers are also very restricted concerning where they work.

However, I think that, if something does cost points, it should work in a fairly wide range of areas. IMO that "only works in its local area" business is for stuff that costs no points.

Yes you can have the shadow for 1 point but the creatures powers will be limited in shadow range.

The points stuff round the uber being stuff was about looking for the item in shadow not for buying with points. If you bought superman with points then his powers work cross shadow. If you search for a superman being I would generally limit his powers to a range of shadows. But I guess that isn't very consistent I suppose I will have a think about it

Quote from: jibbajibba;366169The points stuff round the uber being stuff was about looking for the item in shadow not for buying with points.

I did understand that you were simply assigning the points for purposes of finding such objects.

My problem is with assigning huge amounts of points to powerful objects, and then stating that it would take a character weeks, months, or even years, of hell-riding to find them. It states in ShadowKnight that a bulldozer could easily be stronger than Gerard. My problem comes with rating the bulldozer as having the 16 point "exalted vitality" and deciding that it should take a character 16 days of hell-riding to find such an item.

I'd say that a bulldozer is pretty easy to find, and that its strength is just a natural part of that object, and thus comes free. I'd tend to say the same thing about many of the other powerful objects you can find in Shadow.

Can an Amber PC find a nuke? Yes, IMO fairly easily. How many points is a nuke: I'd say "zero." The Amber artifact system doesn't cover that sort of object, so it wouldn't really cost points, it's just that you'd never get your nuke to work in Amber.

As I said above, my problem is with the idea of assigning some HUGE number of points to something like a nuke (or a Kryptonian, or a god), and stating that it would take a character years of hell-riding to find such an object.

Or even worse, to state that: "exalted vitality" is off limits to PCs, and thus it is impossible for a PC to find a bulldozer out in Shadow (from my view point, that would be a bizarre conclusion to reach. But if you insisted on rating all objects by the point system in the book, and also followed what the book said about PCs not having access to "exalted vitality" then you might end up at that conclusion).

IMO the Artifact creation rules are for things like Merlin's item, frakir. Meaning items you actually intend on taking to various places, including Amber. I'd don't believe that the item creation rules in the book were intended to cover the special abilities of bazookas, or kryptonians, or demi-gods.

Quote from: warp9;366196I did understand that you were simply assigning the points for purposes of finding such objects.

My problem is with assigning huge amounts of points to powerful objects, and then stating that it would take a character weeks, months, or even years, of hell-riding to find them. It states in ShadowKnight that a bulldozer could easily be stronger than Gerard. My problem comes with rating the bulldozer as having the 16 point "exalted vitality" and deciding that it should take a character 16 days of hell-riding to find such an item.

I'd say that a bulldozer is pretty easy to find, and that its strength is just a natural part of that object, and thus comes free. I'd tend to say the same thing about many of the other powerful objects you can find in Shadow.

Can an Amber PC find a nuke? Yes, IMO fairly easily. How many points is a nuke: I'd say "zero." The Amber artifact system doesn't cover that sort of object, so it wouldn't really cost points, it's just that you'd never get your nuke to work in Amber.

As I said above, my problem is with the idea of assigning some HUGE number of points to something like a nuke (or a Kryptonian, or a god), and stating that it would take a character years of hell-riding to find such an object.

Or even worse, to state that: "exalted vitality" is off limits to PCs, and thus it is impossible for a PC to find a bulldozer out in Shadow (from my view point, that would be a bizarre conclusion to reach. But if you insisted on rating all objects by the point system in the book, and also followed what the book said about PCs not having access to "exalted vitality" then you might end up at that conclusion).

IMO the Artifact creation rules are for things like Merlin's item, frakir. Meaning items you actually intend on taking to various places, including Amber. I'd don't believe that the item creation rules in the book were intended to cover the special abilities of bazookas, or kryptonians, or demi-gods.

there is certainly a logic to that and if the playered wanted to go to a space shadow they could find an exoskeleton or whatever. MY issue I guess is with the flavour of the books. Basically if I don;t think its got good flavour then it will be expensive (GM Fiat at work) :)
But I do totlaly take your arguement that a superman is just a bulldozer in a red cape.

Indeed an interesting debate.
 Let's quote the rules as a starting point:
 Step One - Start with a normal item
 and
 The basic artifact or creature is free, no matter how weird or exotic.
 

 I would use these guidelines, as as start point for a discussion (feel free absolutely to criticize, I am proposing this exactly for this purpose):
 

• obtaining an item or a creature it    is not as going to the shop and buy what you need. It's a great    role-playing opportunity, possibly with danger and difficulties if    the item is really important.
• a PC can reach only what he knows    or can imagine.
• the more a PC has to imagine, the    more the GM will use this vagueness against the PC because, you    know, things aren't exactly as you imagine...
• an item or a creature that belong    to a known class, costs zero points: it's a normal    item and it's free.
  
• An item or a creature that are a    special variation of their class may cost points as in the C&I    table. These points represent the time needed to find them.
• A zero point item or creature will    take only the minimum time requested for the type of approach used    to find them (pattern, logrus, ecc.)

So if I were the GM, I would do this way:
 1) so you want a bulldozer?
 For me a bulldozer costs zero points. It will costs points only if it has some special feature, like "a bulldozer able to speak" so you can command it to start or stop the engine vocally.
 If your PC knows what a bulldozer is, this means he knows where to find a shadow where there are bulldozers. So the time to find one is the time to reach that shadow and locate a bulldozer somewhere. The key is that you can have what you can imagine, or what you know already. So if you don't know what a bulldozer is, but someone told you about it or you have seen it in a picture, you will find only what you have imagined and it's probable that it is the wrong thing in some aspect...
 2) so you want to find an army of angels?
 Angels are a class of beings. Again, does your PC knows angels? Has he seen an angel before? What powers have these angels? What are their limits? Who they serve and why? For the bulldozer we didn't need these information, because we all know (approximately!) how it works.  Once you find them, why these powerful beings should come with you to fight? The PC must present arguments because this has to happen, possibly via role-playing.
 If we have defined what a normal angel is, it costs zero point for me. Only if you take a normal angel and make him special you have to spend the points.
 3) so you want to find Superman?
 He is not a class, he is a person. Does your PC knows him? Does he only imagine him, perhaps reading some comic? So, define his powers and points. If I remember well, only under a yellow sun superman has his powers, but under a red sun... Maybe he's not that great resource in the end... And may be that he will kill you under his sun because he is stronger than you. This suggest me that the stronger the creature, the harder is to control it, and the more powerful the item, the more probable someone else is trying to get it.
 

 And of course you have to spend the point only to make that special item as your somehow.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366281

• the more a PC has to imagine, the    more the GM will use this vagueness against the PC because, you    know, things aren't exactly as you imagine...

In terms of "vagueness," you can actually get pretty specific, including things like drawing up blueprints, or painting pictures of  your target (I used to have a set of blue-prints for the TOS Enterprise). Then it just becomes a question of honing in on the target.

And there is a difference between having details that you never thought about, and having features that actually contradict what you imagined.

Also, in game terms, vagueness of spoken description can lead to a difference between what somebody visualized, and what the GM understood that they were after. This vagueness is more of an issue of communication. And, while it highlights how important it is to be clear about what you want when talking to the GM, but I think that the PC deserves some benefit of the doubt in those situations, because it is about what they were actually visualizing.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366281For me a bulldozer costs zero points. It will costs points only if it has some special feature, like "a bulldozer able to speak" so you can command it to start or stop the engine vocally.

Bulldozers on Shadow Earth don't speak, and there aren't bulldozers in Amber, but assuming that my character has been out in Shadow, who is to say that he doesn't already have a great deal of personal experience about many, many, strange things?

The book makes it pretty clear that my character can be pretty much assumed to have whatever skills I want him to have, why can't that include a great deal of personal knowledge of all sorts of strange Shadows?

Quote from: warp9;366293In terms of "vagueness," you can actually get pretty specific, including things like drawing up blueprints, or painting pictures of  your target (I used to have a set of blue-prints for the TOS Enterprise). Then it just becomes a question of honing in on the target.

This means that you have to sit down and think about the item a lot. You are nearly designing it. It takes time. It's ok for me and define a lot what you are looking for in the shadows.

Quote from: warp9;366293And there is a difference between having details that you never thought about, and actually having features that actually contradict what you imagined.

Absolutely. I don't want to create diffulties for the PC to be evil, but because the player should have obstacles to overcome to really enjoy the game, particularly in ADRPG. It is my opinion of course.

Quote from: warp9;366293Also, in game terms, vagueness of spoken description can lead to a difference between what somebody visualized, and what the GM understood that they were after. This vagueness is more of an issue of communication. And, while it highlights how important it is to be clear about what you want when talking to the GM, but I think that the PC deserves some benefit of the doubt in those situations, because it is about what they were actually visualizing.

Yes, if the PC has good stuff, no if he has bad stuff.

Quote from: warp9;366293Bulldozers on Shadow Earth don't speak, and there aren't bulldozers in Amber, but assuming that my character has been out in Shadow, who is to say that he doesn't already have a great deal of personal experience about many, many, strange things?

Sure. If he knows a shadow where bulldozers can speak, he can go there and pick up one.

Quote from: warp9;366293The book makes it pretty clear that my character can be pretty much assumed to have whatever skills I want him to have, why can't that include a great deal of personal knowledge of all sorts of strange Shadows?

I don't see such a knowledge as a skill. The PC must be more specific about his past, and can't just say "Oh I know that, because I know all sort of strange things": this doesn't seems fair to me.

Starting with the last part of the quote first. . . .

Quote from: Evermasterx;366298I don't see such a knowledge as a skill. The PC must be more specific about his past, and can't just say "Oh I know that, because I know all sort of strange things": this doesn't seems fair to me.

I believe that background knowledge can be a skill.

However I can agree with your general point about requesting that the PC have a fairly specific past documented. IMO it is a good idea for the PCs to give quite a bit of detail concerning their backgrounds. Although, if the characters are hundreds of years old, that might require a lot of work to get too specific.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366298Sure. If he knows a shadow where bulldozers can speak, he can go there and pick up one.

Any sort of ultra-high tech universe with speech recognition, and artificial intelligence should have lots of machines which can talk to you, including bulldozers. I don't think it is a big stretch to assume that most Amber PCs will have been to a few ultra-high tech universes.

Or, to take it in a different direction. Many D&D type universes have some sort of talking constructs, some large version of one of those might also do the trick, especially with a few minutes of "fine-tuning." The Juggernaut construct in the D&D monster listings looks kind of like a bulldozer to me. ;)

Quote from: Evermasterx;366298This means that you have to sit down and think about the item a lot. You are nearly designing it. It takes time. It's ok for me and define a lot what you are looking for in the shadows.

I try to push for that as GM, and I do a lot of detail work as a player, so I can agree with the above statement.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366298Absolutely. I don't want to create diffulties for the PC to be evil, but because the player should have obstacles to overcome to really enjoy the game, particularly in ADRPG. It is my opinion of course.

I think that is an important point. Some GMs do try to twist things around just to make problems.

And I've even known some GMs who tried to use vagueness against me, and then, when I got very super-specific, complained that they didn't have time to read all my over obsessive documentation.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366298

QuoteAlso, in game terms, vagueness of spoken description can lead to a difference between what somebody visualized, and what the GM understood that they were after. This vagueness is more of an issue of communication. And, while it highlights how important it is to be clear about what you want when talking to the GM, but I think that the PC deserves some benefit of the doubt in those situations, because it is about what they were actually visualizing.

Yes, if the PC has good stuff, no if he has bad stuff.

My problem with the above is that it isn't a matter of "luck" but is instead a matter of communication. However, if my character has a lot of bad stuff, I would probably try to be extra-careful, and detailed about exactly what I wanted.

I am glad that we reached some common view.

Some more considerations:
1) as a GM in ADRPG I don't like too much the idea of high technology shadows, and think that are difficult to reach just because you have to imagine their features, so the PC has to be Verne, or Wells, or in general a Sci-Fi writer to imagine something like that, so good to make it real. My players for now never have express the desire to visit such a shadow, but if they will try, I won't stop them, because Amber is a game of possibilities and I have to try to see it as an opportunity for fun, instead than a difficulty.
2) you talk about D&D, but I don't have direct experience in that game. I've only heard that some GM take for them the role of PC killers. I don't know if it is right or wrong for that specifical game. For ADRPG it is wrong for sure. Before Amber, I've been mastering Rolemaster, then a custom game and then Everway.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366316I am glad that we reached some common view.

That is always good. :)

Quote from: Evermasterx;366316Some more considerations:
1) as a GM in ADRPG I don't like too much the idea of high technology shadows, and think that are difficult to reach just because you have to imagine their features, so the PC has to be Verne, or Wells, or in general a Sci-Fi writer to imagine something like that, so good to make it real.

You don't have to be a sci-fi writer; you only have to be a sci-fi reader. ;)

Quote from: Evermasterx;3663162) you talk about D&D, but I don't have direct experience in that game.

I just mentioned it as a example of a fantasy world that I figured a lot of people would have experience with.

However, I personally am not all that big a fan of the game, and IMHO, you're not missing that much.

I use a skill system to resolcve the backgrounbd knowledge and it also fills in gaps for the PC history without making them all write a 4 page life history.

My problem with the 'base creature is free' argument is that in an infinite universe there must be shadows where all things are mundane so a world where Invulnerable armour grows on trees or where Enchanted swords grow out of the ground. Becuase of that I line. Its my opinion that the spirit of the rules is that the base creature is free really means if you want a horse you don't need to buy it movement and improved stamina and strength cos its a mundane creature. It shouldn't mean that I can find a shadow where all the Horses are like Morgenstern engine speed, bullet-proof etc. and so they are all free because in that world its a normal thing. I mean a logically a horse like that probably does come from a place where there are horses like that.... so ...

If you are saying an Angel should be free or Superman should be free what you are actually saying is that all items should be free as in an infinite universe there is some place where they are common and mundane.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366440I use a skill system to resolcve the backgrounbd knowledge and it also fills in gaps for the PC history without making them all write a 4 page life history.

My problem with the 'base creature is free' argument is that in an infinite universe there must be shadows where all things are mundane so a world where Invulnerable armour grows on trees or where Enchanted swords grow out of the ground. Becuase of that I line. Its my opinion that the spirit of the rules is that the base creature is free really means if you want a horse you don't need to buy it movement and improved stamina and strength cos its a mundane creature. It shouldn't mean that I can find a shadow where all the Horses are like Morgenstern engine speed, bullet-proof etc. and so they are all free because in that world its a normal thing. I mean a logically a horse like that probably does come from a place where there are horses like that.... so ...

If you are saying an Angel should be free or Superman should be free what you are actually saying is that all items should be free as in an infinite universe there is some place where they are common and mundane.

Yes, I am suggesting that you could have a Horse like Morgenstern, for free; but there is a catch.

The catch is that this horse probably wouldn't have its special qualities if you took it outside its home Shadow. On the other hand, the high point Morgenstern would keep his abilities in most places (that high point Morgenstern could be built by actually paying points, or by hell-riding for about 3 weeks).. If you paid your own points, it would probably be a bit more reliable, which might come in handy if you wanted to take the creature to some extremely bizarre places, like the underside of Shadow. And you'd be sure that there were no unwanted outside influences (so you'd know that you wouldn't actually be getting a "Trojan Horse" ;) ).

Of course, that raises the question: how does my character actually know the difference between the free Morgenstern, and the 21 point Morgenstern? It might make it easier if we were looking at a high-tech mechanical horse that did what Morgenstern could do, but that doesn't have to be the case. So I don't have a good answer for that question.

All I can say is this: if you want it to work in Amber, pay points for it, or spend days/weeks looking for it. But you'll never get your Kryptonian to function in Amber, so points are irrelevant in a case like that, and anything else which is pretty much limited to a particular Shadow is free.

added on edit: this is all my own personal opinion of course, but that is how I'd do things.

Quote from: warp9;366458Yes, I am suggesting that you could have a Horse like Morgenstern, for free; but there is a catch.

The catch is that this horse probably wouldn't have its special qualities if you took it outside its home Shadow. On the other hand, the high point Morgenstern would keep his abilities in most places (that high point Morgenstern could be built by actually paying points, or by hell-riding for about 3 weeks).. If you paid your own points, it would probably be a bit more reliable, which might come in handy if you wanted to take the creature to some extremely bizarre places, like the underside of Shadow. And you'd be sure that there were no unwanted outside influences (so you'd know that you wouldn't actually be getting a "Trojan Horse" ;) ).

Of course, that raises the question: how does my character actually know the difference between the free Morgenstern, and the 21 point Morgenstern? It might make it easier if we were looking at a high-tech mechanical horse that did what Morgenstern could do, but that doesn't have to be the case. So I don't have a good answer for that question.

All I can say is this: if you want it to work in Amber, pay points for it, or spend days/weeks looking for it. But you'll never get your Kryptonian to function in Amber, so points are irrelevant in a case like that, and anything else which is pretty much limited to a particular Shadow is free.

added on edit: this is all my own personal opinion of course, but that is how I'd do things.

I agree with you. The Amberites use swords instead of machineguns because the swords work everywhere (or nearly so). For the same reason they look for an oustanding and unique (or nearly so) exemplar of horse like Morgenstern (and pay points for it).

Maybe we could say that something evaluated zero points has many of its special features working only in the shadow of origin. For this reason I think is necessary to think about the features enough: why an angel fly? If you answer to this question maybe you can say in which shadows they will continue to fly.

Something evalutated at least one point works everywhere, but it must be build taking a normal item and adding the qualities/powers.

A bulldozer of shadow earth could not work in another place, because the fuel won't explode in that shadow. But if you take a shadow earth bulldozer and add at least Mobility (1 point) it will move everywhere (or nearly so). If you pay that point, no one will be able to manipulate the bulldozer to turn against you.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366521I agree with you. The Amberites use swords instead of machineguns because the swords work everywhere (or nearly so). For the same reason they look for an oustanding and unique (or nearly so) exemplar of horse like Morgenstern (and pay points for it).

Maybe we could say that something evaluated zero points has many of its special features working only in the shadow of origin. For this reason I think is necessary to think about the features enough: why an angel fly? If you answer to this question maybe you can say in which shadows they will continue to fly.

Something evalutated at least one point works everywhere, but it must be build taking a normal item and adding the qualities/powers.

A bulldozer of shadow earth could not work in another place, because the fuel won't explode in that shadow. But if you take a shadow earth bulldozer and add at least Mobility (1 point) it will move everywhere (or nearly so). If you pay that point, no one will be able to manipulate the bulldozer to turn against you.

I think this is a little too gamist though. If I say I am goignt o hunt through shadows to find a horse like Morganstern then you do exactly that. From a charater perspective you don;t say but I want this horse to be real and be able to have those skill across shadow because usually natural abilities like the horses just work.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366528I think this is a little too gamist though. If I say I am goignt o hunt through shadows to find a horse like Morganstern then you do exactly that. From a charater perspective you don;t say but I want this horse to be real and be able to have those skill across shadow because usually natural abilities like the horses just work.

Imagine Julian wants a horse like Morgenstern. He thinks that the horse has to be big, strong, fast and loyal, he wants a horse unique in his genre.
So he hellrides until he finds a shadow where the horses are pretty normal, but where a magnificent stallion roams the earth, wild and free.
"This is it!" - Julian said to himself after 21 weeks of search.
Now he has to befriend the beast, somehow (roleplaying opportunity), maybe living there for more weeks...
As you see, Julian did a lot of work to get this powerful ally, which will be part of him in the future.

But he could have simply hellridden to a shadow where all the horses are like that, and go back home with a horse with all that feature. Little work, little profit. Maybe the horse in Amber starts to decay after some week, because it was the atmosphere of its original place to make it strong. In every case a horse obtained in this way is not part of Julian, it's just like a dress.

So I think that the points, either if you spend them or simply use to calculate the time needed to find the item, they mean how important and reliable is that item. If then you actually spend the points, the item is not only important and reliable, but you are sure that nobody else could use it without your consensus.

This is how I see it, but surely your argumets are something to consider to not be too much gamist.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366539Imagine Julian wants a horse like Morgenstern. He thinks that the horse has to be big, strong, fast and loyal, he wants a horse unique in his genre.
So he hellrides until he finds a shadow where the horses are pretty normal, but where a magnificent stallion roams the earth, wild and free.
"This is it!" - Julian said to himself after 21 weeks of search.
Now he has to befriend the beast, somehow (roleplaying opportunity), maybe living there for more weeks...
As you see, Julian did a lot of work to get this powerful ally, which will be part of him in the future.

But he could have simply hellridden to a shadow where all the horses are like that, and go back home with a horse with all that feature. Little work, little profit. Maybe the horse in Amber starts to decay after some week, because it was the atmosphere of its original place to make it strong. In every case a horse obtained in this way is not part of Julian, it's just like a dress.

So I think that the points, either if you spend them or simply use to calculate the time needed to find the item, they mean how important and reliable is that item. If then you actually spend the points, the item is not only important and reliable, but you are sure that nobody else could use it without your consensus.

This is how I see it, but surely your argumets are something to consider to not be too much gamist.

Well I was thinking we were tlaking about point here as in 'points to find' not as is items that are part of the legend stuff. The later I have no issue with .

But if Julian goes riding for a horse and finds a place where all the horses are like Morgenstern, then he has found a place where all horses are like morganstern. Whilst the game might have a justifciation for making this horse weaker, it was free and took no time to find, the world has no difference. In Amber terms the two horses are the same all that differes is the ammount of effort taken to locate them. That is where the problem lies for me. You are saying one is more real because you spent points/effort on it and not through any intrinsic property it posesses itself.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366543Well I was thinking we were tlaking about point here as in 'points to find' not as is items that are part of the legend stuff. The later I have no issue with .

But if Julian goes riding for a horse and finds a place where all the horses are like Morgenstern, then he has found a place where all horses are like morganstern. Whilst the game might have a justifciation for making this horse weaker, it was free and took no time to find, the world has no difference. In Amber terms the two horses are the same all that differes is the ammount of effort taken to locate them. That is where the problem lies for me. You are saying one is more real because you spent points/effort on it and not through any intrinsic property it posesses itself.

Yes, I am saying that one is more real because Julian spent a lot of time and energy to have it. And in game terms this will translate in points.
I do not agree with you because, even in Amber terms, the presence of the blood of Amber makes a shadow more strong and real, and so it is for a creature: the attentions of a Prince of Amber make it more real.

I start from the theory that the shadows come to existance as an amberite starts to interact with them: the more he care, the more the shadow stuff becomes solid. Of course there can be other point of start and other point of view equally justified.

Quote from: Evermasterx;366548Yes, I am saying that one is more real because Julian spent a lot of time and energy to have it. And in game terms this will translate in points.
I do not agree with you because, even in Amber terms, the presence of the blood of Amber makes a shadow more strong and real, and so it is for a creature: the attentions of a Prince of Amber make it more real.

I start from the theory that the shadows come to existance as an amberite starts to interact with them: the more he care, the more the shadow stuff becomes solid. Of course there can be other point of start and other point of view equally justified.

I just can't trranlate that into the novels.

Imagine a proto-scene from a future novel. Julian taking his son James to find a mount. They travel through shadow to a plain of red grass where a heard of Morgenstern type horses exist and James has to do some sort of test whereby he captures and breaks one.

That is a very Amberesque scene. Its the sort of thing players come up with in amber fiction and I am a Gm use for flashback threads. Now there would be no element of this horse if not real or is real it just is. Effectively if you find a horse liek that it is real from the off.
Now its my opinion that to find any horse like Morganstern you need to pay the points in terms of effort otherwise you find only mundane horses. This clarifies things for me.
Now if you wnet looking for beings that are beyond morgenstern being with more that a 4 in anything I think they will fade outside their shadows.

I have been thinking about this from the earleir post where I realised I have no consistentcy and have decided that henceforth if a creature has greater than 4 in anything it needs to be linked to a Real Power source, (pattern , logrus, abyss, ygg, something else) or it will be limited to a small range of shadows. This clarifies my position clearly I think.

You can find the 1000 point character who exceeds all amberites at everything but his scope is limited unless he is imbued with Power. It might be that this superman is still a 4 strenght, 4 combat, 4 endurance, 4 psyche guy once you pull him out of the shadow (so he becomes a 16 point creature ) but the excess he had in his own shadow are specific to that shadow.

This also ties into some of my own ideas round Conjuration and other stuff and i think fits the rules reasonably well.

So I woudl say ....

i) if you want to find an exotic creature you will need to pay points beyond the 'earth standard' for that sort of thing.
ii) You can find things that are as tough as you like if you pay the points
iii) When you move tough stuff out of its shadow if weakens if it does not have a link to a real power

I think that is reasonably consistent (if a little earth centric - although that is becuase earth is a reflection of Amber and not he other way round) and fits the novels and the spirit of the ADRPG rules.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366624I just can't trranlate that into the novels.

Imagine a proto-scene from a future novel. Julian taking his son James to find a mount. They travel through shadow to a plain of red grass where a heard of Morgenstern type horses exist and James has to do some sort of test whereby he captures and breaks one.

That is a very Amberesque scene. Its the sort of thing players come up with in amber fiction and I am a Gm use for flashback threads. Now there would be no element of this horse if not real or is real it just is. Effectively if you find a horse liek that it is real from the off.
Now its my opinion that to find any horse like Morganstern you need to pay the points in terms of effort otherwise you find only mundane horses. This clarifies things for me.
Now if you wnet looking for beings that are beyond morgenstern being with more that a 4 in anything I think they will fade outside their shadows.

I have been thinking about this from the earleir post where I realised I have no consistentcy and have decided that henceforth if a creature has greater than 4 in anything it needs to be linked to a Real Power source, (pattern , logrus, abyss, ygg, something else) or it will be limited to a small range of shadows. This clarifies my position clearly I think.

You can find the 1000 point character who exceeds all amberites at everything but his scope is limited unless he is imbued with Power. It might be that this superman is still a 4 strenght, 4 combat, 4 endurance, 4 psyche guy once you pull him out of the shadow (so he becomes a 16 point creature ) but the excess he had in his own shadow are specific to that shadow.

This also ties into some of my own ideas round Conjuration and other stuff and i think fits the rules reasonably well.

So I woudl say ....

i) if you want to find an exotic creature you will need to pay points beyond the 'earth standard' for that sort of thing.
ii) You can find things that are as tough as you like if you pay the points
iii) When you move tough stuff out of its shadow if weakens if it does not have a link to a real power

I think that is reasonably consistent (if a little earth centric - although that is becuase earth is a reflection of Amber and not he other way round) and fits the novels and the spirit of the ADRPG rules.

I understand your position and find that is clear and reasonable.
I prefer instead an emotional approach to the topic, if we can say so.
Surely Conjuration (for me the part of the rules difficult to use without thinking a lot about it) is linked to what we are discussing.

Quote from: warp9;366082Let us say that you are the GM. And I am a player who comes to you with my character's 1 point personal shadow. In this Shadow, my character is the king/emperor/god, and there are all sorts of loyal creatures which have great powers and skills (or at least they have great powers in that Shadow). Do I get this personal Shadow for 1 point?

Yes.

Quote from: warp9;366082I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Default is: They don't.

To have them keep their powers (or at least some of it) outside means they're important enough so that, in fact, you searched not a fantastic shadow, but an army of angels that can work in shadow. THAT is rare. So, you determine their point cost "everywhere", and use normal guidelines to know how much time it takes to find them.
Pretty simple, actually :)

Quote from: warp9;366082Again, I basically agree with the above but a part of this line of questioning relates to the following statement :
 (my emphasis with the bold text)
(...)
Here we have the philosophy that Superman would cost major points AND his powers would only work in a very limited setting. That is something which I do not agree with.

I have no problem with the concept that Superman's powers cost no points and that those powers are also very restricted concerning where they work.

However, I think that, if something does cost points, it should work in a fairly wide range of areas. IMO that "only works in its local area" business is for stuff that costs no points.

Well, I mostly agree with you :lol:

To me, a shadow with superman will be difficult to find, because it'll be so different from the "default" shadow and Amber.
But if you find it? It's just a shadow, and costs 1 point.

Now, if you want a flying, superstrong human that works everywhere in shadow, that's gonna cost you a lot, if at all possible, and that'll be much, much more difficult to find.

In short:
- If it only works in a given shadow: Time depends on the difference from that shadow to Amber. Use the rulebook, this is searching for a Shadow of Desire, although some shadows (like hi-tech shadows, or very high magic shadows) will be more difficult to find than others (basic medieval/renaissance shadow), because of the aforementioned difference to the original (amber).
- If it works in a lot of shadows: Time depends on the creature's powers outside of its home shadow(s). Use the rulebook, this is searching for a creature/item in shadow. The base being Amber for what items/animals are normal, only worse (ie human rank instead of more)

Nothing exceptionnal, nothing that isn't covered by core ADRPG. At least, that's the way I view it.
Also, note that, unless you paid points for it, nothing ensures that it'll obey you, work as expected, or that it doesn't already obeys or belongs to someone else.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366624So I woudl say ....

i) if you want to find an exotic creature you will need to pay points beyond the 'earth standard' for that sort of thing.
ii) You can find things that are as tough as you like if you pay the points
iii) When you move tough stuff out of its shadow if weakens if it does not have a link to a real power

I think that is reasonably consistent (if a little earth centric - although that is becuase earth is a reflection of Amber and not he other way round) and fits the novels and the spirit of the ADRPG rules.

But that brings us back to the issue of finding a D&D like Shadow, with Ancient Dragons, Deities, and Demi-Gods, etc.

Many fantasy worlds have a lot of stuff which is "beyond Earth standard," yet such universes tend to be more similar to Amber than the world with where Brand was held captive (a place with a crazy sky, dead-bodies that float upward, and huge rocks that zip around in strange orbits).

Imagine that you stat out some of the things in the D&D world into the Creature and Artifact rules, some of those things would have very high point value. If you went out to find them using the 1 day of hell-riding per point of creature/artifact concept, it could take months to find the sort of world with those kind of "non-Earth standard" creatures in it.

Quote from: warp9;366815But that brings us back to the issue of finding a D&D like Shadow, with Ancient Dragons, Deities, and Demi-Gods, etc.

Many fantasy worlds have a lot of stuff which is "beyond Earth standard," yet such universes tend to be more similar to Amber than the world with where Brand was held captive (a place with a crazy sky, dead-bodies that float upward, and huge rocks that zip around in strange orbits).

Imagine that you stat out some of the things in the D&D world into the Creature and Artifact rules, some of those things would have very high point value. If you went out to find them using the 1 day of hell-riding per point of creature/artifact concept, it could take months to find the sort of world with those kind of "non-Earth standard" creatures in it.

Yes and no. First the shadow wherew Brand was held captive should be rare and hard to get to. It was out on the edge 'where the shadows go mad' and selected as a prison. If you look at the other locations from Lorraine,  to Avernus to Shadow Earth, Kashfa, etc etc they are all pretty normal. You don't see a lot of high fantasy or Space opera.
And again shadow walking to a D&D fantasy world is probably easier than finding a certain dragon. I know that isn't entirely conistent but I think that is what I would do.

Now the time to hellride to a place is perhaps something I would tinker with based on advanced pattern powers or even psyche (afterall it takes Corwin what 4 days to hellride from Amber to the point he draws his new pattern and he had time to make a few stops on the way) but part of what I would aim to do here is to use the game mechanic to promote the Amber we see in the books (This is different from my previous comment on players searching for permanent powered items as opposed to temporary powers as being gamist) . Just saying :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;366897Yes and no. First the shadow wherew Brand was held captive should be rare and hard to get to. It was out on the edge 'where the shadows go mad' and selected as a prison. If you look at the other locations from Lorraine,  to Avernus to Shadow Earth, Kashfa, etc etc they are all pretty normal. You don't see a lot of high fantasy or Space opera.

One of the reasons that I mentioned the place where Brand was held is specifically because it was "on the edge." But at the same time, it didn't take Random weeks of hell-riding to get there. By Random's account, it took less than a day to get to that highly exotic place.

Random says that he ate a big meal, packed his polarized glasses (to deal with the dazzlingly bright creature), jumped in his glider, and goes up in the air. First, he shifts to get rid of the city, so there is just swamp back at the river mouth where Texorami was before. Then he went over the land until it turned to desert, then "the sun shrank and strands of cloud whipped past its face, erasing it bit by bit." Pretty soon the sun is totally gone, and he is getting near to his goal: "No sun then but the light remained." Then he shifted shadow to pick up the drifting motion of the rocks, and was almost there.

That was pretty clearly a single ride out in the glider, rather than a long trip of many days or weeks. To make it even more clear that it was a single day, there is an observation he makes after losing 2 swords. Random states that it was clearly his day for losing swords. And he makes a remark wondering whether, if he'd checked his horoscope before setting out on the day's adventure, it would have indicated that he should watch out for losing his weapons.

This idea clearly conflicts with the concept that it takes weeks, or even months, of hell-riding to get to something extremely exotic.


You mention places like Lorraine, Amber, and Kashfa. Yes, those do seem pretty "Earth-normal," but I'd suggest that the nature of those places had  more to do with what the characters wanted to find than what was easy to find: there are also plenty examples of places they pass through which are pretty strange. . . .

For example, on the initial trip that Random and Corwin took from Shadow Earth to Amber, they went through places where the atmosphere and gravity were different, and even a place where all the people and buildings were transparent (Corwin mentions being able to see their internal organs, and the remains of their last meals). And it wasn't like Random's goal was to hell-ride as fast as possible to the most bizarre shadows he could find.

And we can see other examples of exotic features of various worlds which a apparently very close to the normal seeming ones.

When Corwin first meets Dara, he takes her on a little walk, and finds a huge waterfall with a titanic water wheel.  I don't know how big the wheel was, but it was pretty clear that it was absurdly HUGE. The wheel is one which he describes later in recounting the story in Sign of the Unicorn, as a wheel which was "fit for the granary of the gods." It seems strange that it would be so easy to find something like that, with a pleasant little walk, while, according to the process you advocate, it might take months of hard-core hell riding to find an absurdly HUGE ape like King Kong.

There is also the example of the walk that Merlin took with Julia. . . .
   
We followed it to a gallery, open to our left and looking out upon night and stars, stars, stars. . . . It was an enormous prospect, blazing with new constellations, their light sufficient to cast our shadows onto the wall behind us. She leaned over the low parapet, her skin some rare polished marble, and she looked downward.

They're down there too," she said. "And to both sides! There is nothing below but more stars, And to the sides. . . ."

That doesn't seem very "Earth-normal" to me, and again, that was just a short walk, not a hard-core hell-ride lasting for days.  

All these examples indicate that it isn't really that hard to find pretty bizarre things out in Shadow. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the longest trip through shadow I can think of is Corwin's trip from Amber to the Courts. And that trip was probably made much harder because Oberon was re-working the pattern, and all of shadow was going through drastic changes.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366897And again shadow walking to a D&D fantasy world is probably easier than finding a certain dragon. I know that isn't entirely conistent but I think that is what I would do.

I guess a part of that issue is exactly how much difference in time we are talking about.

Up to a point, I'd agree that it does take longer if you are being more specific. But so far, your arguments have been about the time it takes to find something being based on power and toughness, not specificity.

As I've indicated above, in the books, it just doesn't seem to take characters weeks of hell-riding to find things. Even very exotic places, like Brand's prison, can be found in a relatively short time.

And if you are going to say that it takes an afternoon of hell-riding to find a D&D clone shadow, yet it takes months of hell-riding to find an ancient red dragon, that sounds like a pretty big inconsistency to me.

That is especially true considering the basis for the argument that it takes weeks or months to find an ancient red dragon is because it is more exotic (powerful) than earth-standard, when there are things which are even more exotic/powerful than dragons in a D&D type fantasy world (like the gods, for example).

I agree with every thign you say about moving to distant shadows note my comments in my second paragraph

"Now the time to hellride to a place is perhaps something I would tinker with based on advanced pattern powers or even psyche (afterall it takes Corwin what 4 days to hellride from Amber to the point he draws his new pattern and he had time to make a few stops on the way) but part of what I would aim to do here is to use the game mechanic to promote the Amber we see in the books (This is different from my previous comment on players searching for permanent powered items as opposed to temporary powers as being gamist) . Just saying"

So I agree that hellriding is too slow.
I also admit to my inconsistancies. I would allow a character to hellride to a D&D shadow quite quickly a day or two out of Amber maybe. But if they wanted to find a red dragon that would obey their will and they could ride about I would impose the points. Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'. So I woudl impose a restriction on the top end stuff as I outlined and make the point cost restrict the excesses.

In theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

if I am playing Amber I want it to feel like the novels. I can apply some logic to reinforce that based on the rules but I can be flexible if using those same rules limits the game from feeling like the novels. If you see what I mean. But I accept its inconsistant.

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005I agree with every thign you say about moving to distant shadows note my comments in my second paragraph

"Now the time to hellride to a place is perhaps something I would tinker with based on advanced pattern powers or even psyche (afterall it takes Corwin what 4 days to hellride from Amber to the point he draws his new pattern and he had time to make a few stops on the way) but part of what I would aim to do here is to use the game mechanic to promote the Amber we see in the books (This is different from my previous comment on players searching for permanent powered items as opposed to temporary powers as being gamist) . Just saying"

So I agree that hellriding is too slow.

Fair enough. :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005I also admit to my inconsistancies. I would allow a character to hellride to a D&D shadow quite quickly a day or two out of Amber maybe. But if they wanted to find a red dragon that would obey their will and they could ride about I would impose the points.

I would think that most Amberites could find some way to dominate many types of creatures whether they were naturally inclined to cooperate, or not.

An ancient red dragon might be fairly crafty, and present a bit more of a problem, but there are lots of big dumb powerful creatures that just ripe for psychic domination.  So, in many cases, finding a creature, and finding a creature that can be made to obey, is not all that much different

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'.

That seems like it might be a misunderstanding of my argument. I'm not suggesting that there are two versions of most things. The way I tend to see it is that most powerful creatures/objects are in the same class as nukes. There is one version of a nuke, and one version of a kryptonian. And you'll never get either a nuke or a kryptonian to function in Amber.

Regarding the creature/artifact rules in the book: I see the "special enhancements" listed in the book as a very limited (note: meaning very limited as compared to all the infinite possibilities of shadow items/creatures) class of qualities and powers that can be applied universally.

I would even compare it to the difference between the magic practiced by various types of local magicians (D&D wizards, for example), vs magic like sorcery or power words listed in the Amber book.

How much to be a 20th level D&D Wizard? 0 points. But that is a different thing from having the Sorcery, Conjuration, and/or Power Words, listed in the Amber DRPG book.

That is where IMO the difference between finding a creature as strong or stronger than Gerard, vs the special enhancement "Exalted Vitality" comes in. Any Amberite can find a big strong creature out in shadow, a creature which is stronger than Gerard. But the special enhancement "Exalted Vitality" is off limits to the PCs.

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005So I woudl impose a restriction on the top end stuff as I outlined and make the point cost restrict the excesses.

In theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

One of my general issues with this whole point about bringing exotic/powerful creatures to Amber is that it is never really discussed in the books. We know that Amberies can find bazookas or bulldozers very easily. We know that despite the powerful qualities these items have, they will not function in Amber.

But here is the thing, living creatures are essentially extremely complex biological machines, and if the chemical laws are different enough in Amber that gunpowder doesn't function, why are people and animals able to do so well? If electricity doesn't work in Amber, then how do the impulses get carried along the nerves?

Do living things simply adapt, and change, so that they can keep functioning in Amber? If so, could other, more bizarre lifeforms also adapt to Amber?

Could Marvel Inhumans, like Black Bolt, exist and be fully functional in Amber?

If it is possible to bring exotic and powerful creatures to Amber, why hasn't it already been done? You'd think that Oberon would long since have brought in some of the most powerful creatures imaginable as Amber guardians.

If there are specific limits on what creatures can come to Amber, then what are those limits?

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005if I am playing Amber I want it to feel like the novels. I can apply some logic to reinforce that based on the rules but I can be flexible if using those same rules limits the game from feeling like the novels. If you see what I mean. But I accept its inconsistant.

One of the problems here is that the novels are a bit inconsistent.

We see very little magic in the original series, people did their fighting in a fairly mundane fashion; even Brand uses a crossbow for his attacks.

In the Merlin series, things are quite a bit different. Especially if you get to situations like the battle between Spikard enhanced Merlin and Living-Trump Jurt. They throw force bolts at each other, Jurt creates a vacuum around Merlin, all sorts of wild stuff, and very different from the feel of the Corwin series.  

All that being said, I'm not totally happy with my own explanation of the workings of artifacts and creatures. But I think that there are some other ways to deal with these problems, if one is willing to make some deeper assumptions about how things "really work in Amber."

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'. So I woudl impose a restriction on the top end stuff as I outlined and make the point cost restrict the excesses.

Hum... I'd say you could find 2 types of dragons, basically:
- Normal shadow dragons, that depends a lot of local shadow laws, and will lose their powers / wither and die if they change shadows. Note that this can be escaped somewhat by changing appearance: A shadow that might not support a dragon might support a human.
- Dragons real enough to have power out there, just like if they had been brought by points. They are rare, not because they're powerful (there are a lot of powerful things out there), but because they're real enough, at least to some degree. Thus, finding a shadow god might be easier than finding an army of Chaos-level shadowlings.

Anyway, most things might just not work in Amber, like gunpowder (Ok, corwin found some, but it was unprecedented, and they all had searched for ages before) or superpowers/shadow magic/shadow science.

Quote from: jibbajibba;367005Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'.

That's exactly what I'd do, and it seems entirely consistent with the novels. What I don't understand is why you seem to think that there is only one kind of red dragon in the universe. There are an infinite number of shadows with infinite variations of red dragons. Of course there are differences.

A dragon whose powers work further outside it's own shadow is going to be rarer, however, and therefore take more time to find. Hellriding 'the journey' doesn't somehow modify the same dragon that you would find if you rode to an ordinary D&D shadow, it takes you to an entirely different dragon. It's only natural that different journeys lead to different destinations.

Hellriding to an item of desires isn't simply a matter of distance. Remember, Corwin passed Yig in about 3 days of hellriding, yet finding even a 4 point sword would take 4 days but you'd still probably be on the near side of Yig. If it was a matter of distance, an 8 or 12 point item would put you past the Abyss.

In my games, hellriding to an item isn't primarily about distance, it's about searching for a sufficiently Real version of the item, needle-in-a-haystack style. Real things are, by definition, rarer than their shadow counterparts and therefore harder to find.



 

QuoteIn theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

Under my interpretation of the rules this is impossible, so I see no inconsistency between the rules and the tone of the books. The Black Bolt's powers don't work in Amber so a shadow full of him is useless.

Exactly! :)

Quote from: Croaker;366716

QuoteI can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Default is: They don't.

To have them keep their powers (or at least some of it) outside means they're important enough so that, in fact, you searched not a fantastic shadow, but an army of angels that can work in shadow. THAT is rare. So, you determine their point cost "everywhere", and use normal guidelines to know how much time it takes to find them.
Pretty simple, actually :)

The issue here is: how does my character actually know the difference between these types of angels?

Can he hell-ride to angels that can function in shadow, or can he say he is "hell-riding to gun-powder that works in Amber" ?

I can understand how he can find gun-powder out in some shadow, but I'm not sure he can specify gun-powder that works in specific other places.

Quote from: Klaus;367859

QuoteNow you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'.

That's exactly what I'd do, and it seems entirely consistent with the novels. What I don't understand is why you seem to think that there is only one kind of red dragon in the universe. There are an infinite number of shadows with infinite variations of red dragons. Of course there are differences.

A dragon whose powers work further outside it's own shadow is going to be rarer, however, and therefore take more time to find. Hellriding 'the journey' doesn't somehow modify the same dragon that you would find if you rode to an ordinary D&D shadow, it takes you to an entirely different dragon. It's only natural that different journeys lead to different destinations.

Hellriding to an item of desires isn't simply a matter of distance. Remember, Corwin passed Yig in about 3 days of hellriding, yet finding even a 4 point sword would take 4 days but you'd still probably be on the near side of Yig. If it was a matter of distance, an 8 or 12 point item would put you past the Abyss.

In my games, hellriding to an item isn't primarily about distance, it's about searching for a sufficiently Real version of the item, needle-in-a-haystack style. Real things are, by definition, rarer than their shadow counterparts and therefore harder to find.
 

QuoteIn theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

Under my interpretation of the rules this is impossible, so I see no inconsistency between the rules and the tone of the books. The Black Bolt's powers don't work in Amber so a shadow full of him is useless.

I do agree with these points.

Although, I'd also say that I might like explore some other methods of doing things.

Quote from: warp9;368916The issue here is: how does my character actually know the difference between these types of angels?

Can he hell-ride to angels that can function in shadow, or can he say he is "hell-riding to gun-powder that works in Amber" ?

I can understand how he can find gun-powder out in some shadow, but I'm not sure he can specify gun-powder that works in specific other places.

Well, how does he knows the difference between, say, Corwin and his shadow?
Fact is, he doesn't.
Yet he can search Shadow for Corwin, and he'll find him, not a shadow.

By the same token, he can search for these angels.

The gunpowder poses an interesting problem, since it suggest that either:
- Some things just can't exist in shadow. Infinite doesn't mean all-encompassing (For exemple, the... ensemble of "whole numbers" is infinite, but doesn't, for exemple, contains 2,5).
- Some things are so improbable that they take a very long time to search. So much time in fact (months? Years? Decades? Centuries?) that everyone stopped before finding them.

Quote from: Croaker;369046Well, how does he knows the difference between, say, Corwin and his shadow?
Fact is, he doesn't.
Yet he can search Shadow for Corwin, and he'll find him, not a shadow.

By the same token, he can search for these angels.

The gunpowder poses an interesting problem, since it suggest that either:
- Some things just can't exist in shadow. Infinite doesn't mean all-encompassing (For exemple, the... ensemble of "whole numbers" is infinite, but doesn't, for exemple, contains 2,5).
- Some things are so improbable that they take a very long time to search. So much time in fact (months? Years? Decades? Centuries?) that everyone stopped before finding them.

the gunpowder thing is interesting when you analyse it. Corwin found it by accident. Refinding it was trivial. So that would imply once you have found a host of angels you can always find such angels very easily. It also fits with Corwin's reuse of the short furry guys.

With this being said one would have thought that every Amberite would have spent a year in a quiet spell finding a bunch of ultimate soldiers. Just in case they might be deeded later. How would you cost that ? make them pay with points but use some modifier on quantity ?

Quote from: jibbajibba;369088the gunpowder thing is interesting when you analyse it. Corwin found it by accident. Refinding it was trivial. So that would imply once you have found a host of angels you can always find such angels very easily. It also fits with Corwin's reuse of the short furry guys.

With this being said one would have thought that every Amberite would have spent a year in a quiet spell finding a bunch of ultimate soldiers. Just in case they might be deeded later. How would you cost that ? make them pay with points but use some modifier on quantity ?

Corwin said he found it by accident ;)

How I would rate such an army? Just use the rulebook, p67: Points*quantity => total points, which determines times spent searching it (like, a day of hellride per point).
And never forget that, unless paid with points, you can never be sure of your army's allegiance or behaviour

Quote from: Croaker;369089Corwin said he found it by accident ;)

How I would rate such an army? Just use the rulebook, p67: Points*quantity => total points, which determines times spent searching it (like, a day of hellride per point).
And never forget that, unless paid with points, you can never be sure of your army's allegiance or behaviour

I would do the same thing

Quote from: Croaker;369046

QuoteThe issue here is: how does my character actually know the difference between these types of angels?

Can he hell-ride to angels that can function in shadow, or can he say he is "hell-riding to gun-powder that works in Amber" ?

I can understand how he can find gun-powder out in some shadow, but I'm not sure he can specify gun-powder that works in specific other places.

Well, how does he knows the difference between, say, Corwin and his shadow?
Fact is, he doesn't.
Yet he can search Shadow for Corwin, and he'll find him, not a shadow.

By the same token, he can search for these angels.

The gunpowder poses an interesting problem, since it suggest that either:
- Some things just can't exist in shadow. Infinite doesn't mean all-encompassing (For exemple, the... ensemble of "whole numbers" is infinite, but doesn't, for exemple, contains 2,5).
- Some things are so improbable that they take a very long time to search. So much time in fact (months? Years? Decades? Centuries?) that everyone stopped before finding them.

I just don't think there is anything in the books that leads us to believe that a Shadow like Avalon (with Amber-functional gun powder) would take Years, Decades, or even Centuries, to find.

In fact, the whole argument of "reality" doesn't seem to apply anyway. The issue was not that Earth gunpowder wasn't "real enough" to function in Amber. Instead it is stated that Amber has different chemical laws so things that work in Amber don't work on Shadow Earth, and things that work on Shadow Earth don't work in Amber. The gunpowder that worked in Amber was inert on Shadow Earth, and that can't be because it "wasn't real enough" to work there.

Quote from: warp9;370012I just don't think there is anything in the books that leads us to believe that a Shadow like Avalon (with Amber-functional gun powder) would take Years, Decades, or even Centuries, to find.

In fact, the whole argument of "reality" doesn't seem to apply anyway. The issue was not that Earth gunpowder wasn't "real enough" to function in Amber. Instead it is stated that Amber has different chemical laws so things that work in Amber don't work on Shadow Earth, and things that work on Shadow Earth don't work in Amber. The gunpowder that worked in Amber was inert on Shadow Earth, and that can't be because it "wasn't real enough" to work there.

You're confusing 2 things IMO, even if sometimes they work under similar rules:

- The "reality" (for lack of a better term) of a shadow creature/artifact that enables it to function mostly as if anywhere in shadow. This also includes the scarcity of sheer natural talent (like artifact-level attributes for human). These are rare enough for Morgenstern to have taken julian effort to find/create (and he has ONE of these), for Corwin to impress bleys with his blue guys, and for the keep of the 4 worlds to be a single occurence in the series

- "Shadow" laws, which define how things work in that shadow. For exemple, the gunpowder isn't explosive in Avalon or everywhere in Shadow, only in Amber, under Amber particular physical laws (And, IIRC, The courts, which should indicate both share similar physical laws, at least on some aspects)

Note that, even if we believe Corwin, his brothers and him spend centuries searching for gunpowder that'd work in Amber, and had all but forsaken this research until corwin found it by sheer luck.
A shadow like Avalon, by itself, is nothing special. They spend all this time searching because they wanted "a shadow where I'll find gunpowder that works in Amber".

Quote from: Croaker;370093You're confusing 2 things IMO, even if sometimes they work under similar rules:

- The "reality" (for lack of a better term) of a shadow creature/artifact that enables it to function mostly as if anywhere in shadow. This also includes the scarcity of sheer natural talent (like artifact-level attributes for human). These are rare enough for Morgenstern to have taken julian effort to find/create (and he has ONE of these), for Corwin to impress bleys with his blue guys, and for the keep of the 4 worlds to be a single occurence in the series

- "Shadow" laws, which define how things work in that shadow. For exemple, the gunpowder isn't explosive in Avalon or everywhere in Shadow, only in Amber, under Amber particular physical laws (And, IIRC, The courts, which should indicate both share similar physical laws, at least on some aspects)

But do we actually see this "reality" issue coming up in any of the series?

Quote from: Croaker;370093Note that, even if we believe Corwin, his brothers and him spend centuries searching for gunpowder that'd work in Amber, and had all but forsaken this research until corwin found it by sheer luck.
A shadow like Avalon, by itself, is nothing special. They spend all this time searching because they wanted "a shadow where I'll find gunpowder that works in Amber".

Or maybe another answer is that they simply can't search for something which is that abstract.

Quote from: warp9;370100But do we actually see this "reality" issue coming up in any of the series?

I agree we never see this in the books. It's a game explanation for 'if the universe is infinite then I will get an army of supermen' . You have to have something in place that says all things are infinite but finding them takes time.
That is my driver for simply charging for all stuff that is 'exceptional' because then there is no difference between levels of reality.
My caveat being magic and tech and I think that changes between shadows although a sorcerer from one shadow could probably leran ho magic works in another shadow given time (this goes back to my shadow profiel idea where magic and tech are variables)

Quote from: jibbajibba;370124I agree we never see this in the books. It's a game explanation for 'if the universe is infinite then I will get an army of supermen' . You have to have something in place that says all things are infinite but finding them takes time.

The problem is that time is not that much of a barrier to Amberites: they have a lot of it. If time were the only issue, then every Amberite should have an army of supermen.

It seems to me that one of the following explanations might be better:

   (Option A) Maybe you can find your supermen, but due to the difference in physical laws, their powers would not work in a place like Amber.

(Option B) Maybe there are some things which you simply can't find out in Shadow, and kryptonians are among those things.

(Option C) Maybe some things are simply too dangerous to go looking for. If you search for beings of great power, you will often find more than you were looking for, and discover that you've opened a Pandora's box (or created a Frankenstein's Monster).

Quote from: jibbajibba;370124My caveat being magic and tech and I think that changes between shadows although a sorcerer from one shadow could probably leran ho magic works in another shadow given time (this goes back to my shadow profiel idea where magic and tech are variables)

I'm not sure how easily an AD&D wizard would adapt to other very different magic systems (examples that come to my mind are the Shadowrun magic system, or a magic system like that in Mage:the Ascension). In those cases, his previous knowledge would have so little validity that he wouldn't have much of an advantage on an average person. And, in fact, it might be even worse for the AD&D wizard; he'd have a whole set of pre-conceptions about how magic should work, which would probably just get in his way.

Quote from: warp9;370100But do we actually see this "reality" issue coming up in any of the series?

I used "reality" as a short hand, a rapid explanation. You can use "scarcity", "probability"... whatever.

The fact is, you're searching for "Shadowlings that fight as well as Amberites" (4-pts warfare). This is quite rare/improbable so it'll take time.
Now, if you search for "Shadowlings with superpowers that give them enhanced reflexes and predictive abilities that allow them to fight as well as Amberites in their home shadow (Say, the Midnighter), this is more probable, because you're searching local shadow laws instead of... something intrinsic to them, I guess: Outside this shadow, they have nothing special.

Quote from: warp9;370205The problem is that time is not that much of a barrier to Amberites: they have a lot of it. If time were the only issue, then every Amberite should have an army of supermen.

It seems to me that one of the following explanations might be better:

   (Option A) Maybe you can find your supermen, but due to the difference in physical laws, their powers would not work in a place like Amber.

(Option B) Maybe there are some things which you simply can't find out in Shadow, and kryptonians are among those things.

(Option C) Maybe some things are simply too dangerous to go looking for. If you search for beings of great power, you will often find more than you were looking for, and discover that you've opened a Pandora's box (or created a Frankenstein's Monster).

First, an army of supermen that don't work outside their home shadow is of little use. I draw a clear distinction between "Works due to local physical laws" (can be anything, even a god. Why restrain yourself to supermen?) and "works everywhere" (Look to C&A for this)

But let's tackle this, and consider that an army of supermen is possible. What's the problem? This is just the kind of BIG menace Eric spoke about in the basic ADRPS. I mean, what's the more dangerous? That, or a Monster big enough to devour whole Shadows?

I'd treat it as a construct, I guess.

Of course, if you want a more "corwinesque" feel, you might ban constructs completely, restrain yourself to basic C&A, and say no to this. There's nothing wrong with this: As I said above, the fact that shadow in infinite doesn't mean it contains everything, or in unlimited quantity, or that'll obey you.
For exemple, take your average God. In a given shadow, it may have near-unlimited power. Are cross-shadow gods possible? Some would say no. I'd say there exist at least 2: The Pattern and the Logrus. Can you find an army of pattern/logrus? I'd say no.

Quote from: warp9;370100I'm not sure how easily an AD&D wizard would adapt to other very different magic systems (examples that come to my mind are the Shadowrun magic system, or a magic system like that in Mage:the Ascension). In those cases, his previous knowledge would have so little validity that he wouldn't have much of an advantage on an average person. And, in fact, it might be even worse for the AD&D wizard; he'd have a whole set of pre-conceptions about how magic should work, which would probably just get in his way.

Well, if he was dumped into a shadow similar enough for some of his spells to work, others almost, thus requiring adaptation, and with repeating the process, he might do well, and manage to learn Sorcery.
Else, I think you may very well be right.

Quote from: Croaker;370437Well, if he was dumped into a shadow similar enough for some of his spells to work, others almost, thus requiring adaptation, and with repeating the process, he might do well, and manage to learn Sorcery.
Else, I think you may very well be right.

I would say that a DnD mage is merely wrapping ritual and classifiaction round Sorcery. His spells won't work but given time he can discover why they don't work and fix it.

In the same way a super techie might find his ray gun doesn't work but will in time learn the differences int eh laws of physica that prevent it and may get a different version working.

One of my big questions round this point debate is the whole what do you get for free part.

So in my army of angels example I made the player pay for all of it. but others have noted that a number of those features may be inherrent to the creature and should be free. What makes the free version limited to a shadow?
If I took the Free angel but added an additional point of something so my shadow wide army now cost 4 points but had the same stats as my previous version. Since I had paid for something does the rest work across shadow?

Again this Is is why I say pay for it all (but maybe reduce the time to seek items or better run it factorially. 1 point powers take 4 hours , 2 point powers 16 hours, 4 point powers 64 hours, 8 point power 256 hours. So to find a creature with 3 1 point powers takes 12 hours, but to find a creture with an 8 point power takes nearly 11 days.) just so its consistent.

I'm not sure I understand you.

IIRC, you're asking "what if I want for free, say, a dragon, with basic dragon stats"?

As I told above, first, Amber is the basic of what you get for free and what should be. Everything else depends more or less on local shadow laws.
If something can't exist/keep its powers in Amber, it "costs" points (if only in term of search).

So, an elephant could exist in amber (I suppose), so, for 1-4 points, you can buy an intelligent elephant, who'll have an elephant's strength and stamina.
A cyborg, OTOH, couldn't, so you need to search for a basic human with point-based enhancement.

This is not perfect compared to the books, but mostly, it works and is coherent with the whole "shadow is Amber reflected" thing

Oh, and for the DnD mage, I disagree: Shadow magic isn't Amber magic. You can even know 20 different shadow magic without being able to use sorcery.

Quote from: Croaker;370437I used "reality" as a short hand, a rapid explanation. You can use "scarcity", "probability"... whatever.

The fact is, you're searching for "Shadowlings that fight as well as Amberites" (4-pts warfare). This is quite rare/improbable so it'll take time.
Now, if you search for "Shadowlings with superpowers that give them enhanced reflexes and predictive abilities that allow them to fight as well as Amberites in their home shadow (Say, the Midnighter), this is more probable, because you're searching local shadow laws instead of... something intrinsic to them, I guess: Outside this shadow, they have nothing special.

First, an army of supermen that don't work outside their home shadow is of little use. I draw a clear distinction between "Works due to local physical laws" (can be anything, even a god. Why restrain yourself to supermen?) and "works everywhere" (Look to C&A for this)

Part of the problem with this perspective is that, from a pure "physical laws" argument, even things like normal horses should be limited. A horse depends on all sorts of complex bio-chemical reactions to keep functioning. And if those laws change too much, it should not work any better than a gun taken off into a distant shadow.

Of course, in the books, horses (and other living things) do keep functioning---but we are not told why. Do living creatures adapt to different physical laws as they travel between shadows? If so, why wouldn't this effect apply to more exotic creatures?

Quote from: Croaker;370437As I said above, the fact that shadow in infinite doesn't mean it contains everything, or in unlimited quantity, or that'll obey you.

I agree that limiting Shadow is a tactic that some GMs might use. However, it is very important to understand one point: the books do not simply say that Shadow is infinite---they go much further. . . .

Consider Corwin's statement in Nine Princes In Amber:

   Shadow extends from Amber to Chaos, and all things are possible within it.

"All things are possible with in it" is a much heavier statement than saying it is infinite (for the reasons you have already pointed out).

Quote from: Croaker;370437For exemple, take your average God. In a given shadow, it may have near-unlimited power. Are cross-shadow gods possible? Some would say no. I'd say there exist at least 2: The Pattern and the Logrus. Can you find an army of pattern/logrus? I'd say no.

But the Pattern and the Logrus are not really "of Shadow." They are beyond Shadow, and that is different from searching within Shadow for "cross-shadow gods."

Although that doesn't prove that there cannot be god-like entities within Shadow, that have extreme powers which extend beyond their own Shadows.

Quote from: jibbajibba;370439One of my big questions round this point debate is the whole what do you get for free part.

I think the better question might be: what am I buying?

I mean, what are the Qualities & Powers listed in the Artifacts and Creatures building section of ADRPG really meant to represent?

If those Qualities and Powers were actually an attempt to allow players to stat out anything from infinite/unlimited shadow, I'd say it is a pretty poor set of rules.

Quote from: jibbajibba;370439Again this Is is why I say pay for it all (but maybe reduce the time to seek items or better run it factorially. 1 point powers take 4 hours , 2 point powers 16 hours, 4 point powers 64 hours, 8 point power 256 hours. So to find a creature with 3 1 point powers takes 12 hours, but to find a creture with an 8 point power takes nearly 11 days.) just so its consistent.

Lets say we take that "pay for it all" business literally, how long would it take for an Amberite to find a big whale?

I'd guess a big whale could easily be stronger than Gerard. Gerard Strength is 16 points. Assuming that we are looking for a 32 point ability using the method outlined above, it would take a long time to find a whale.

Quote from: warp9;371079I think the better question might be: what am I buying?

I mean, what are the Qualities & Powers listed in the Artifacts and Creatures building section of ADRPG really meant to represent?

If those Qualities and Powers were actually an attempt to allow players to stat out anything from infinite/unlimited shadow, I'd say it is a pretty poor set of rules.



Lets say we take that "pay for it all" business literally, how long would it take for an Amberite to find a big whale?

I'd guess a big whale could easily be stronger than Gerard. Gerard Strength is 16 points. Assuming that we are looking for a 32 point ability using the method outlined above, it would take a long time to find a whale.

Well they are heavily endangered and the Japanese and Norwegian perchant for eating them doesn't help :)

Quote from: warp9;371078Part of the problem with this perspective is that, from a pure "physical laws" argument, even things like normal horses should be limited. A horse depends on all sorts of complex bio-chemical reactions to keep functioning. And if those laws change too much, it should not work any better than a gun taken off into a distant shadow.

Of course, in the books, horses (and other living things) do keep functioning---but we are not told why. Do living creatures adapt to different physical laws as they travel between shadows? If so, why wouldn't this effect apply to more exotic creatures?

Maybe but, well, it doesn't work that way in Amber.

If I may, I'd remind you that neither Zelazny nor Erik were, AFAIK, scientists. Maybe that, in reality, you can't have physical laws that stop gunpowder explosion without having horses dying. But Zelazny wasn't writing a physics treatise. He was writing a book, while Erik was writing a game. So, if it felt right to have, say floating rocks but no guns, you'd have them, even if, in reality, such a thing would be impossible.

You can of course alter this to your whims.
I'm just giving you a solution to most GM problems that is mostly coherent with the books and keeps the "amber feel" jibba spoke about.

Quote from: warp9;371078"All things are possible with in it" is a much heavier statement than saying it is infinite (for the reasons you have already pointed out).

Consider that:
- Corwin may have a limited imagination ;)
- Corwin may be lying about his capacities to a potential ennemy
- Corwin may be boasting to his son
- Corwin may be wrong (he's been at times, and you can find conflicting statements in the books)
- Corwin may just use the words not litterarily, but as a writer and poet: This is much better that, say "most things are possible in shadow"
- There a difference between "everything is possible in shadow" and "everything exists in shadow". The first may mean that everything you want to do is possible in shadow.

Quote from: warp9;371078But the Pattern and the Logrus are not really "of Shadow." They are beyond Shadow, and that is different from searching within Shadow for "cross-shadow gods."

Although that doesn't prove that there cannot be god-like entities within Shadow, that have extreme powers which extend beyond their own Shadows.

Disagreed.

You can reach them through pattern/logrus. In fact, you MUST reach them that way, through shadowalking. If they were in, say, undershadow, or utterly unreachable through this, I'd agree. Not there. If you're in shadow and search fro the pattern, you won't end up in Amber? Are you sure of this?

That god thing is surely possible. It just doesn't seem very right for this to be common: When you see how ghostwheel and corwin's pattern were assaulted, you'd think the Logrus and Pattern would have destroyed/enslaved most such powers.


But let me ask you a question here. 2, in fact.
What do YOU want? What is YOUR opinion on this?
Cause I'm having a hard time determining it. If you want armies of free Black Bolts under the tip of each prince, ready to attack Amber with their sonic scream... Well, do it! It's you game after all, and this may be fun. But then, why are you even asking, especially if it is to disagree with everything that's been said by everyone?

Nice summary Coaker.

From my perspective what I want is a simple way to make looking for powerful beings possible but expensive in time terms so that you won't do it on a whim.

I want the rules on this to be consistent enough that a player can't game an advantage by selecting the correct 'base unit' for whom powers x through y are inherent.

So in the angel or black bolt (that example was mine as well :) ) case I don't want players to be able to get a shedload of stuff free that another guy paid for because he doesn't know the system. Likewise I want powerful uber beings to be theoretically possible but practically too much effort.

But going back to the OP . Opinions on some of this stuff differ :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;371118Well they are heavily endangered and the Japanese and Norwegian perchant for eating them doesn't help :)

I can't argue with that point. :p

Still, you can't have those pesky humans (whale-killers) in every version of Earth. ;)

Quote from: Croaker;371169Maybe but, well, it doesn't work that way in Amber.

If I may, I'd remind you that neither Zelazny nor Erik were, AFAIK, scientists. Maybe that, in reality, you can't have physical laws that stop gunpowder explosion without having horses dying. But Zelazny wasn't writing a physics treatise. He was writing a book, while Erik was writing a game. So, if it felt right to have, say floating rocks but no guns, you'd have them, even if, in reality, such a thing would be impossible.

When I'm running a game, I may need to deal with issues which the characters in Zelazny's books never dealt with.

Corwin never asked why horses could survive when physical laws change. And when you are writing a book, your characters tend to stay with the script.

But player characters are a different matter. And that exact issue becomes very relevant if one is trying to import exotic creatures to Amber.

Quote from: Croaker;371169You can of course alter this to your whims.
I'm just giving you a solution to most GM problems that is mostly coherent with the books and keeps the "amber feel" jibba spoke about.

To my knowledge, the books never actually deal with the issue of taking super-exotic creatures across Shadows.

Would such creatures have the same problems as cars and guns, or would they, like horses, ignore those differences in physical laws?

Quote from: Croaker;371169Consider that:
- Corwin may have a limited imagination ;)
- Corwin may be lying about his capacities to a potential ennemy
- Corwin may be boasting to his son
- Corwin may be wrong (he's been at times, and you can find conflicting statements in the books)
- Corwin may just use the words not litterarily, but as a writer and poet: This is much better that, say "most things are possible in shadow"

Maybe. But you can use these sorts of arguments to justify almost anything. Yes, Corwin could have been lying. And he could have been lying about a great many things.

Quote from: Croaker;371169- There a difference between "everything is possible in shadow" and "everything exists in shadow". The first may mean that everything you want to do is possible in shadow.

I'm not sure there is that much of a difference in those things; especially if one of those things I "want to do" involves the existence of some exotic object.

Quote from: Croaker;371169

QuoteBut the Pattern and the Logrus are not really "of Shadow." They are beyond Shadow, and that is different from searching within Shadow for "cross-shadow gods."

Although that doesn't prove that there cannot be god-like entities within Shadow, that have extreme powers which extend beyond their own Shadows.

Disagreed.

You can reach them through pattern/logrus. In fact, you MUST reach them that way, through shadowalking. If they were in, say, undershadow, or utterly unreachable through this, I'd agree. Not there. If you're in shadow and search fro the pattern, you won't end up in Amber? Are you sure of this?

It seems that it is possible to walk to Amber, or at least to the edge of it, in Shadow. But the books also make it clear that there is a fundamental difference between Amber and Shadow. Corwin makes it very clear that "there is Shadow and there is Substance," and Amber is of Substance, which sets it apart from Shadow.

Quote from: Croaker;371169But let me ask you a question here. 2, in fact.
What do YOU want? What is YOUR opinion on this?
Cause I'm having a hard time determining it. If you want armies of free Black Bolts under the tip of each prince, ready to attack Amber with their sonic scream... Well, do it! It's you game after all, and this may be fun. But then, why are you even asking, especially if it is to disagree with everything that's been said by everyone?

What do I want?

What I'd like to see is a good solution to these issues. A solution that is consistent with the specific events of the books (both Corwin and Merlin series), and actually makes sense, in terms of the larger understanding of the universe we are given in the books (specifically the idea of un-limited Shadow).

Unfortunately, I am concerned that there are enough contradictions that no single perfect solution is possible (but since I haven't heard all the possible suggestions, I can't be sure about that).

   
(In the Past)

As a GM, it has always been my philosophy that guns, phasers, light-sabers, Stormbringer, jedi-kinghts, kryptonians, and Green-Lantern-Rings, all fit into one category of very powerful creatures/items which do not cost points, yet do not work far outside their home shadows. Whereas items made with those special Amber DRPG qualities, like Merlin's Frakir, cost points and will be reliable pretty much anywhere.

However, I do not think that the above is an ideal solution. And I'd like to see something better. . . .

So what are some of those better options?

Limiting Shadow is one option, but not one I'd really like as a player. I'd kind of resent having the GM going through the description of my personal shadows with a red pen, and marking out all the stuff which was "not-possible in Shadow."

Instead I'd go in other directions---I'd tend to either make Shadow very "un-real," or make it "all too real."

The "un-real" route means that what every toys or creatures that you find out in Shadow are insignificant compared to any real power (like an Amberite). But this state of affairs would contradict the books where things of Shadow could be dangerous to Amberites.

The "all too real" route is interesting, but would require more cunning from the GM. The idea here is that Amberites stay away from searching for anything too radical, because messing with that stuff is just too dangerous.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371173From my perspective what I want is a simple way to make looking for powerful beings possible but expensive in time terms so that you won't do it on a whim.

I have a number of problems with this solution.

(A) That method of doing things doesn't explain why Oberon didn't already have an army of Black-Bolts guarding Amber. He clearly had all the time in the world to set that up.

(B) We don't have any examples of ultra-long hell-rides in the books. The characters were able to get to even extremely different shadows fairly quickly. It is a big change to say: "if you want to find any place radical or intersing, it'll take you weeks or months."

(C) As in the case of whales or elephants, strong doesn't always mean "ultra-rare."

(D) The artifact/creature system in the ADRPG books simply isn't up to creating stats for more radical artifacts/creatures---there are not even rules for things like flight.

Quote from: warp9;371402I have a number of problems with this solution.

(A) That method of doing things doesn't explain why Oberon didn't already have an army of Black-Bolts guarding Amber. He clearly had all the time in the world to set that up.

(B) We don't have any examples of ultra-long hell-rides in the books. The characters were able to get to even extremely different shadows fairly quickly. It is a big change to say: "if you want to find any place radical or intersing, it'll take you weeks or months."

(C) As in the case of whales or elephants, strong doesn't always mean "ultra-rare."

(D) The artifact/creature system in the ADRPG books simply isn't up to creating stats for more radical artifacts/creatures---there are not even rules for things like flight.

I agree with all that apart from D. I think the system is so simple and adaptable that you can slot in any specific power.

My problem with C is that whilst I agree whales or buldozers are common but I don't want someone saying I can find black bolt for free because his powers are innate to black bolt just as a whales strength in innate. So my compromise is any creature that is not mundane on earth (on the weak basis that earth is a shadow of amber) come with costs thus my costing for those angels.
So making people pay for all aditianl powers means they area ll real in amber as well and the questiosn about do dragons loose their powers goes away

As for the prevous stuff about Amber not being of Shadow in that case we learn that that that is a lack or Corwin's knowledge as later he learns that Amber itself is just the first amongst shadows.

A few thoughts.

First, I think a lot of the nastier headaches in ADRPG stem from the (to my mind) somewhat unwarranted notion that shadow is "infinite" in the sense of serving up anything one can possibly think of, ready-made to order. As I think I argued somewhere else around here at some point, there may be infinite number values between zero and one (.1, .2, .3...; .01, .02.,.03...; .001. .002. .003...) but by definition this grouping will never reach three. Similarly, though shadow may be "limitless" in some respects, it may be well-bounded in others. It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

Second, there seems to be an argument to be made that shadow travel works something akin to evolution, which is to say by incremental steps. If there were something that requires large, discontinuous qualitative leaps it might be inaccessible to conventional shadow walking (although something like Pattern teleportation might work).

Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

Fourth, and somewhat more practically, I think it makes sense for players to "pay for" powerful shadow creatures with a commensurate investment of roleplaying effort. That is to say, the more powerful a creature is, the less inclined it will be to have terms dictated to it; some groveling shadow weakling will be a pushover but some enormous dragon will be disinclined to help the PC without hours and hours of playtime spent persuading the creature, building a relationship, running tedious errands, etc., and even then they may remain rather mercurial. (Remember that Corwin states that the one thing he and his siblings cannot shift for is personality). In most cases, who has the time? Here the answer to why Oberon didn't populate Amber with a legions of Black Bolts would be that each recruitment would be a ridiculous nuisance and Oberon didn't care to bother, especially since Amber generally seems to get by well enough with conventional troops commanded by the princes.

Quote from: weilide;371571A few thoughts.

First, I think a lot of the nastier headaches in ADRPG stem from the (to my mind) somewhat unwarranted notion that shadow is "infinite" in the sense of serving up anything one can possibly think of, ready-made to order. As I think I argued somewhere else around here at some point, there may be infinite number values between zero and one (.1, .2, .3...; .01, .02.,.03...; .001. .002. .003...) but by definition this grouping will never reach three. Similarly, though shadow may be "limitless" in some respects, it may be well-bounded in others. It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

Second, there seems to be an argument to be made that shadow travel works something akin to evolution, which is to say by incremental steps. If there were something that requires large, discontinuous qualitative leaps it might be inaccessible to conventional shadow walking (although something like Pattern teleportation might work).

Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

Fourth, and somewhat more practically, I think it makes sense for players to "pay for" powerful shadow creatures with a commensurate investment of roleplaying effort. That is to say, the more powerful a creature is, the less inclined it will be to have terms dictated to it; some groveling shadow weakling will be a pushover but some enormous dragon will be disinclined to help the PC without hours and hours of playtime spent persuading the creature, building a relationship, running tedious errands, etc., and even then they may remain rather mercurial. (Remember that Corwin states that the one thing he and his siblings cannot shift for is personality). In most cases, who has the time? Here the answer to why Oberon didn't populate Amber with a legions of Black Bolts would be that each recruitment would be a ridiculous nuisance and Oberon didn't care to bother, especially since Amber generally seems to get by well enough with conventional troops commanded by the princes.

I agree totally. The items which are really important must be earned by a lot of roleplaying and a lot of points. And the more powerful the hardest to control.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371527I agree with all that apart from D. I think the system is so simple and adaptable that you can slot in any specific power.

The system is simple, but beyond that, I'm not sure that it is all that adaptable.

Even something as simple as strength is a problem. The basic scale in the front of the book only covers a few options, up to Amber level strength, and even the enhanced values later on in the book (which btw are supposed to be off limits to the PCs) only get to Gerard level strength .

Assuming that we reverse the "off limits to PCs" thing, and let the characters get artifacts with higher powers than those listed in the start of the book. . . .

How many points of strength for Godzilla?

How many points of strength to represent the tractor beam of the Star Trek Enterprise?

How many points of strength for Superman?

Quote from: jibbajibba;371527My problem with C is that whilst I agree whales or buldozers are common but I don't want someone saying I can find black bolt for free because his powers are innate to black bolt just as a whales strength in innate. So my compromise is any creature that is not mundane on earth (on the weak basis that earth is a shadow of amber) come with costs thus my costing for those angels.
So making people pay for all aditianl powers means they area ll real in amber as well and the questiosn about do dragons loose their powers goes away

I'm not all that happy with the argument that Earth should be used as some sort of standard. I'd prefer your "pay for everything" stance instead.

But the primary issue I have with your methodology is not so much the point cost specifically, but the conversion of points to time. It seems that you'd end up with something like the Star Trek Enterprise being rated at some vast number of points, meaning it might take months (or years) to find a Star Trek shadow.

In other words, I don't care if King Kong costs big points, but IMO it shouldn't take weeks, months, or years, to find him out in Shadow.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371527As for the prevous stuff about Amber not being of Shadow in that case we learn that that that is a lack or Corwin's knowledge as later he learns that Amber itself is just the first amongst shadows.

You are correct. However, in the context of the conversation at hand I'm not sure it matters.

The real question was about whether the Pattern or the Logrus were of shadow, or not.

Corwin does learn that there is a higher reality than Amber, but that is the Primal Pattern.

And the point still stands that the place of the Primal Pattern is not just "another shadow." To my understanding, the Primal Pattern is supposed to be "real" and not "of Shadow."

Quote from: weilide;371571A few thoughts.

First, I think a lot of the nastier headaches in ADRPG stem from the (to my mind) somewhat unwarranted notion that shadow is "infinite" in the sense of serving up anything one can possibly think of, ready-made to order. As I think I argued somewhere else around here at some point, there may be infinite number values between zero and one (.1, .2, .3...; .01, .02.,.03...; .001. .002. .003...) but by definition this grouping will never reach three. Similarly, though shadow may be "limitless" in some respects, it may be well-bounded in others. It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

I've heard numerous versions of this argument.

There seems start with the idea that Shadow is described as "infinite" in the books, and moves on from there to a somewhat nit-picky analysis of "infinite." It always seems to go with the idea that infinite does not really include all possibilities. The main problem with this view is that Corwin does not stop with the use of "infinite" to describe shadow.

In Nine Princes In Amber, Corwin says: "If one is a prince or princess of the blood, then one may walk, crossing through Shadows, forcing one's environment to change as one passes, until it is finally in precisely the shape one desires it, and there stop."

He also says, at numerous times that, from a practical standpoint, somebody with power over shadow could create his own universe. But if you go with your position: "certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there," then that means, rather than creating your own universe, you are essentially limited to the possibilities which exist in shadow. To some extent you could sort of combine these factors, but it seems to me that, if there are too many arbitrary limits on what can/cannot exist in Shadow, you really get to the point where it is very clear that you are not able to create your own universe.

In fact, in game terms, this comes down to a pretty simple question: can I get what I want in my character's private shadow? Or do I need to GM to go over every bit of it to make sure that it is stuff which can "exist in shadow" ?

Quote from: weilide;371571Second, there seems to be an argument to be made that shadow travel works something akin to evolution, which is to say by incremental steps. If there were something that requires large, discontinuous qualitative leaps it might be inaccessible to conventional shadow walking (although something like Pattern teleportation might work).

That is possible, but I'd need to hear more regarding this part of your argument.

Quote from: weilide;371571Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

I think you are mixing two things here. The issue of whether shadow walking is an inherently imperfect process, and the issue of whether they can search for something as abstract as "gunpowder that ignites in Amber."

It seems to me that Corwin makes it pretty clear that they have quite a bit of control over what they can find in Shadow, and that they can find what they want. But it also seems to be a fairly visual process, rather than a totally abstract process. For example, you might walk toward Amber by shifting for the right color sky, and then begin adding the other details as you go along.

I would just argue that one can't search for something as abstract as "gunpowder that ignites in Amber."


IMO the description of the way shadow-walking works in the books doesn't  fit with the "The Library of Babel" concept. They seem to be able to really home in on what they visualize, rather than haphazardly going along, hoping that maybe they'll stumble upon the object of their desire.

Although I will add that the idea of a vast-deep unknown sea of Shadow, where one has to go out and randomly explore the unknown, is an interesting idea.

Quote from: weilide;371571Fourth, and somewhat more practically, I think it makes sense for players to "pay for" powerful shadow creatures with a commensurate investment of roleplaying effort. That is to say, the more powerful a creature is, the less inclined it will be to have terms dictated to it; some groveling shadow weakling will be a pushover but some enormous dragon will be disinclined to help the PC without hours and hours of playtime spent persuading the creature, building a relationship, running tedious errands, etc., and even then they may remain rather mercurial. (Remember that Corwin states that the one thing he and his siblings cannot shift for is personality). In most cases, who has the time? Here the answer to why Oberon didn't populate Amber with a legions of Black Bolts would be that each recruitment would be a ridiculous nuisance and Oberon didn't care to bother, especially since Amber generally seems to get by well enough with conventional troops commanded by the princes.

I do agree that there is a big danger in working with flunkies which are so powerful that they pose a major threat to Amberites, but regarding the rest of your point, my response is that power is a relative thing. . . .

The lowliest groveling star-trek soldier has access to weapons that would lay waste to entire ancient armies.  And in a whole world full of Black Bolts, being Black Bolt is not that big a deal.

Quote from: warp9;371675The system is simple, but beyond that, I'm not sure that it is all that adaptable.

Even something as simple as strength is a problem. The basic scale in the front of the book only covers a few options, up to Amber level strength, and even the enhanced values later on in the book (which btw are supposed to be off limits to the PCs) only get to Gerard level strength .

Assuming that we reverse the "off limits to PCs" thing, and let the characters get artifacts with higher powers than those listed in the start of the book. . . .

How many points of strength for Godzilla?

How many points of strength to represent the tractor beam of the Star Trek Enterprise?

How many points of strength for Superman?




I'm not all that happy with the argument that Earth should be used as some sort of standard. I'd prefer your "pay for everything" stance instead.

But the primary issue I have with your methodology is not so much the point cost specifically, but the conversion of points to time. It seems that you'd end up with something like the Star Trek Enterprise being rated at some vast number of points, meaning it might take months (or years) to find a Star Trek shadow.

In other words, I don't care if King Kong costs big points, but IMO it shouldn't take weeks, months, or years, to find him out in Shadow.

Again I agree with you. finding a world of Dinosaurs should be easy and in all probability they should stay dinosaurs if you bring them to Amber. I agree there are holes but I am trying to work with the system and establish some ground rules. The only way I think you can do that is to charge points and therefore time for 'exceptional stuff' . Like I said before I am not very consistant and its a flaw. If a player said to be I will add a jet plume in the sky then I will add a jet and then I will add a shuttle and thicken the cloud and when it clears I want to see The Valiant (the bloody big skyship aircraft carrier out of Dr Who) I would let them. If they were looking for an army of Angels or velociraptors or black bolts i woul work out the time base don points and that is how long it would take. I agree the tiems per points doen; seem very much like the books but ther ehas to be a time spend and some roleplay.

Lost AGAIN my post... AAAARGH!!!!

Quote from: warp9;371397When I'm running a game, I may need to deal with issues which the characters in Zelazny's books never dealt with.

Corwin never asked why horses could survive when physical laws change. And when you are writing a book, your characters tend to stay with the script.

But player characters are a different matter. And that exact issue becomes very relevant if one is trying to import exotic creatures to Amber.

It seems you didn't understood my point.

This is not a scientific treatise of the practical implications of 10% more electrical charge on bronze atoms. This is a game, based on a book.

So, maybe that, in reality, you can't have living horses if, say, you can't have laser bolts.
But, unless you play with biologists or chemists who also happen to be unable to leave work at home, this'll never be a point. I mean, can you tell me if this is possible/impossible with 100% accuracy?

Authors and game designers often don't bother much with real-world science, especially as it has been proven before to be wrong (flat earth^^). They aim for a feeling and a theme, with that whole "shadow laws" being mostly fluff to explain it. That's what you should seek, a theme, and stick your "scientific explanations" around it, be it medieval amber or superpowered amber.

IMO, if your players are accepting magic and trumps without a question, but bothering you about their guns not working when their horses do, they're probably trying to munchkinise their way out. And if they question everything as not possible? Why are they even playing?

I mean, I find it pretty ludicrous that your players would question the whole "the physical laws of the shadows permit medieval-level tech but no more" and not superman's powers with their wacky scientific rationnale.  

So, tell them either:
- That this is a game, and that they should leave their science at home. If every GM/Author needed to be scientifically accurate, you'd have never read Amber, nor any sf for that matter.
- That this is strange only if their character has enough scientific knowledge, but that it works that way. Why? That's the question. Maybe their character's science is wrong (Do you recall the Ether? It was science.). Maybe there's something else.

Quote from: warp9;371397To my knowledge, the books never actually deal with the issue of taking super-exotic creatures across Shadows.

Would such creatures have the same problems as cars and guns, or would they, like horses, ignore those differences in physical laws?

Well, it at least dealt with magic, dragons and gods. I can't see any reason why, say, Marvel Thor's powers shouldn't follow the same rules.

Quote from: warp9;371397I'm not sure there is that much of a difference in those things; especially if one of those things I "want to do" involves the existence of some exotic object.

Well, maybe you're more the scientific than the writer, but the difference is rather clear to me, unless you begin to try to verbiose your way out like "I want to attack amber with archangels" :lol: in which case you're no longer dealing with what is possible to you, nor with shadow (unless you're attacking a Shadow Amber).
Sadly, I don't find words to explain it to you better :(

Maybe the reverse? The fact that everything exists in shadow doesn't mean you can do everything that you want.

Let's try a simple exemple:
- You want to fly, to lift tanks, to see through things... It is possible in shadow, you just have to find a shadow where local laws allow it, or give everyone telekinesis, whatever, because everything you want to do is possible somewhere. But, still for exemple, archangels don't exist in shadow, because everything doesn't exist.
- You want to find archangels in shadow. They exist (everything exists). But it is not possible for you to fly, because, well, you're just a human, and everything's not possible).

I'm sorry, I just can't explain it better.

Quote from: warp9;371397It seems that it is possible to walk to Amber, or at least to the edge of it, in Shadow. But the books also make it clear that there is a fundamental difference between Amber and Shadow. Corwin makes it very clear that "there is Shadow and there is Substance," and Amber is of Substance, which sets it apart from Shadow.

And he gets proved wrong later, when Oberon shift shadows in Amber, in order to bring him before the Primal Pattern.
You'll say "Ok, but then, the primal pattern is separate from shadow, Amber being a shadow"... Even agreeing with that, if Amber is part of shadow, then you can search Shadow for the pattern.

Note nonetheless that, if the primal pattern was separate from Shadow, it'd be unreachable through shadowalk. Yet, you actually need to shadowalk to reach it. It may be "real", but it changes nothing to the fact that, if you're in shadow and searching for the pattern, you'll end up in Amber, not the courts.

Quote from: warp9;371397As a GM, it has always been my philosophy that guns, phasers, light-sabers, Stormbringer, jedi-kinghts, kryptonians, and Green-Lantern-Rings, all fit into one category of very powerful creatures/items which do not cost points, yet do not work far outside their home shadows. Whereas items made with those special Amber DRPG qualities, like Merlin's Frakir, cost points and will be reliable pretty much anywhere.

However, I do not think that the above is an ideal solution.

Why?
If it poses you no problem with magic and dragons, why would it be more difficult with phasers and kryptonians?

Especially with kryptonians, in fact: We already know that, under different light wavelength (red sun), they lose their powers. It is so difficult to imagine that the superman's earth sunlight is very specific? Or that their powers also require other home-related conditions (like a specific mass for carbon atoms, add 1/1000000 of that and it doesn't work)?

Quote from: warp9;371397The "all too real" route is interesting, but would require more cunning from the GM. The idea here is that Amberites stay away from searching for anything too radical, because messing with that stuff is just too dangerous.

I've said it before: The fact that you may find anything in shadow doesn't mean that you can find it in unlimited quantities, and the more specific you get, the more time it takes. And yes, some things (a mobile and tame ygg, for exemple) might just be impossible to find.

So, your player may, for exemple, find Stormbringer. It doesn't mean he'll nescessarily find a thousand of it (he may, or not, it's your game). It doesn't mean it won't try to devour his sould.
It may even be initially well-disposed to him (just as he sought) but betray him later (maybe because it was subservient to someone else).

But whatever. Take your  ideas, however you want them to play out, and give them a try! Maybe it won't work, and maybe you'll get a blast out of it!

Quote from: warp9;371402(B) We don't have any examples of ultra-long hell-rides in the books. The characters were able to get to even extremely different shadows fairly quickly. It is a big change to say: "if you want to find any place radical or intersing, it'll take you weeks or months."

Sigh...
Then again: finding a given shadow is fairly quick.

IIRC, corwin impresses bleys with his blue guys because he was quick to find them. And they're basically humans faithful to him. The more powerful creatures are inversely rarer, from the werewolves to the hellhounds to Morgenstern, probably due to this: At no moment do we see corwin search for something unknown and powerful.
A contrario, when merlin explains Ghostwheel, he talks of the time he spent finding the shadow he needed and designing it.

Another exemple? Magic swords and rings of powers abound in shadow. Yet, grayswandir and werewindle are rare enough to warrant a name, and we don't see anyone wearing spikards.

Quote from: warp9;371402In fact, in game terms, this comes down to a pretty simple question: can I get what I want in my character's private shadow? Or do I need to GM to go over every bit of it to make sure that it is stuff which can "exist in shadow" ?

For the Nth time: YES, because your shadow local laws are tailored to suit it, whatever it is. Go outside and, deprived of your shadow's support, somethings won't work.

Quote from: warp9;371402Although I will add that the idea of a vast-deep unknown sea of Shadow, where one has to go out and randomly explore the unknown, is an interesting idea.

The Abyss. The divers.


Tired, it's late, gonna get to slepp

And ultimately we know that superman, the starship Enterprise, Strombringer (and so on) are all items of shadow and not substance. So they may kick butt against other things of shadow, but they aren't "real" compared to Pattern or Logrus or whatever.

So that phaser can shoot through rock, but it can't punch a hole in a simple Pattern defensive shield.

Quote from: finarvyn;371787And ultimately we know that superman, the starship Enterprise, Strombringer (and so on) are all items of shadow and not substance. So they may kick butt against other things of shadow, but they aren't "real" compared to Pattern or Logrus or whatever.

So that phaser can shoot through rock, but it can't punch a hole in a simple Pattern defensive shield.

Agreed but the problem isn't really at the extremes its with that dragon you want to ride back to Amber on. If it's a dragon can it breath fire? can it fly? is it as strong as Gerard? And if it is does it cost 30 points or 30 days to find or are all those things inherent properties of a dragon?

Now if you say yes a dragon that can travel back to Amber should be a points thing and it should cost x points which translates to x days of hellriding. But say x was 30 points (not unreasonable if you stat out a dragon in the ADRPG system). That doesn't fit with the books as finding a world of dragons shouldn't take 30 days.
But equally saying okay a world with dragons is fine , dragons are inherrent so are free however free dragons can't travel to Amber and keep their powers, doesn't feel right either as asking for 'meta' stuff like gunpowder that works in Amber or a dragon that works in Amber doesn't fit the books and why does a dragon from shadow loose its power when a horse from shadow is fine.

There is defnitely an issue here. I can see why Wujik used the mechanic he offers its simple and the 1 day per point makes alternative powers like logrus and conjuration more appealing but when you start to drill into it it does start to break . Maybe something for Quillion to fix in a new edition :)

My understanding of the rules was that the time it takes to find something in Shadow isn't necessarily measured by the time it takes to find something in Shadow, but rather how long the searcher is absent from the rest of the players.  So, using the 1 pt. = 1 day measure, that's a month of time all the other PC's get to do stuff without interference or complications from the PC who wants a Dragon.  That approach certainly makes sense within the rest of the game design, and has a better correlation to the text.  (And yes, the weirder it is from an Amber perspective, the longer it should take to actually find as well.)

Clearly, using a 1pt=1day guideline shouldn't be linear, maybe exponential, because the artifact point costs can easily be abused.

Remember, Oberon was missing for about a year and a half before Nine Princes started, and the comment about his disappearance was "never for so long, and not without leaving instructions."  So he never took the time (in remembered history) to go off and find the flying sharks with laser beams that conceivably he could have brought back to Amber if he was willing to be away for fifty years or more.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371858Agreed but the problem isn't really at the extremes its with that dragon you want to ride back to Amber on. If it's a dragon can it breath fire? can it fly? is it as strong as Gerard? And if it is does it cost 30 points or 30 days to find or are all those things inherent properties of a dragon?

Now if you say yes a dragon that can travel back to Amber should be a points thing and it should cost x points which translates to x days of hellriding. But say x was 30 points (not unreasonable if you stat out a dragon in the ADRPG system). That doesn't fit with the books as finding a world of dragons shouldn't take 30 days.
But equally saying okay a world with dragons is fine , dragons are inherrent so are free however free dragons can't travel to Amber and keep their powers, doesn't feel right either as asking for 'meta' stuff like gunpowder that works in Amber or a dragon that works in Amber doesn't fit the books and why does a dragon from shadow loose its power when a horse from shadow is fine.

There is defnitely an issue here. I can see why Wujik used the mechanic he offers its simple and the 1 day per point makes alternative powers like logrus and conjuration more appealing but when you start to drill into it it does start to break . Maybe something for Quillion to fix in a new edition :)

Why don't we try to build this dragon actually with the points?
Remember that the rules say that every quality/power that costs more than 4 points is NOT available to players.
Here is my take:
Immense Vitality - 4 points
Engine Speed - 4 points
Amber Stamina - 2 points
Combat Reflexes - 2 points
Resistant to Normal Weapons - 1 point
Double Damage - 2 points
no rules for fly or fire breath in the C&I section, but it's a fire dragon, so he can do it per default.
total: 15 points = 15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
So if you succeeded into befriend/dominate him (it's not granted) you've got your dragon, so powerful, and as much expensive...
It looks to me that in this case the rules are not that bad.

Quote from: Evermasterx;371899Why don't we try to build this dragon actually with the points?
Remember that the rules say that every quality/power that costs more than 4 points is NOT available to players.
Here is my take:
Immense Vitality - 4 points
Engine Speed - 4 points
Amber Stamina - 2 points
Combat Reflexes - 2 points
Resistant to Normal Weapons - 1 point
Double Damage - 2 points
no rules for fly or fire breath in the C&I section, but it's a fire dragon, so he can do it per default.
total: 15 points = 15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
So if you succeeded into befriend/dominate him (it's not granted) you've got your dragon, so powerful, and as much expensive...
It looks to me that in this case the rules are not that bad.

Yeah looks about right you could add a bunch of other stuff but certainly in the ball park. The problem is when you compare the time to the time it takes stuff to do in the books. I totlaly beleive that in the books Corwin could have got to a Pern like shadow from Amber in far less than 2 weeks. I suspect once outside the limits of Arden he would have been there in a day and that isn't one dragon that is a horde (or maybe even shadow wide) of Dragon ( for a x3/4 multiplier = 6 - 8 weeks ) .

Now as I stated I wold make the PCs spend the time though through this thread I might well tweak the actual durations a little but i can understand why others think that spending 6 weeks to find a flight of dragons is a bit wrong.

Its certainly an area where the rules could be revised

Quote from: jibbajibba;371765Again I agree with you. finding a world of Dinosaurs should be easy and in all probability they should stay dinosaurs if you bring them to Amber. I agree there are holes but I am trying to work with the system and establish some ground rules. The only way I think you can do that is to charge points and therefore time for 'exceptional stuff' . Like I said before I am not very consistant and its a flaw. If a player said to be I will add a jet plume in the sky then I will add a jet and then I will add a shuttle and thicken the cloud and when it clears I want to see The Valiant (the bloody big skyship aircraft carrier out of Dr Who) I would let them. If they were looking for an army of Angels or velociraptors or black bolts i woul work out the time base don points and that is how long it would take.

I appreciate your candor in terms of the admission of inconsistency. It just seems like too big a disparity between sometimes finding big things very easily, and sometimes going by the points and taking forever.

I can imagine having a GM decide to go by the points, and have one PC take forever to find an iron golem out in shadow. And then later have a different PC easily find a D&D type shadow, where the character then uses his vast wealth (pretty much a given for Amberites) to buy an iron golem from some powerful wizard. That would not make any sense, and be unfair to the guy who spent forever looking for the iron golem.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371765I agree the tiems per points doen; seem very much like the books but ther ehas to be a time spend and some roleplay.

I'm not sure I follow this perspective. Sure, a small amount of time and attention during the game to do the hell-riding is great. But we are talking about larger amounts of time.

I'd like to take more time to focus on role-playing out the interesting things. Days upon days upon days of hell riding gets boring pretty fast.

Quote from: Croaker;371774It seems you didn't understood my point.

This is not a scientific treatise of the practical implications of 10% more electrical charge on bronze atoms. This is a game, based on a book.

So, maybe that, in reality, you can't have living horses if, say, you can't have laser bolts.
But, unless you play with biologists or chemists who also happen to be unable to leave work at home, this'll never be a point. I mean, can you tell me if this is possible/impossible with 100% accuracy?

Authors and game designers often don't bother much with real-world science, especially as it has been proven before to be wrong (flat earth^^). They aim for a feeling and a theme, with that whole "shadow laws" being mostly fluff to explain it. That's what you should seek, a theme, and stick your "scientific explanations" around it, be it medieval amber or superpowered amber.

There is naturally a question of how far you should go to explain things, most systems of explanation tend to break down if you keep asking why? why? why? why? why? to every answer.

But there is a difference between explanations which actually make a fair amount of sense, and techno-babble.

Throwing out scientific sounding explanations, which only make sense if you don't think about them, is in the realm of tech-babble.

Quote from: Croaker;371774IMO, if your players are accepting magic and trumps without a question, but bothering you about their guns not working when their horses do, they're probably trying to munchkinise their way out. And if they question everything as not possible? Why are they even playing?

Here the difference is between accepting the existence of unknown forces, powers (trumps and magic), vs dealing with things which seem to contradict what I know (guns are dependent on physical laws, where as horses are not).

There are definitely some other possible explanations for why horses work in Amber but guns do not, but there is some baggage which goes along with those explanations.

Quote from: Croaker;371774Well, maybe you're more the scientific than the writer, but the difference is rather clear to me, unless you begin to try to verbiose your way out like "I want to attack amber with archangels" :lol: in which case you're no longer dealing with what is possible to you, nor with shadow (unless you're attacking a Shadow Amber).
Sadly, I don't find words to explain it to you better :(

Maybe the reverse? The fact that everything exists in shadow doesn't mean you can do everything that you want.

Let's try a simple exemple:
- You want to fly, to lift tanks, to see through things... It is possible in shadow, you just have to find a shadow where local laws allow it, or give everyone telekinesis, whatever, because everything you want to do is possible somewhere. But, still for exemple, archangels don't exist in shadow, because everything doesn't exist.
- You want to find archangels in shadow. They exist (everything exists). But it is not possible for you to fly, because, well, you're just a human, and everything's not possible).

I'm sorry, I just can't explain it better.

Actually it sounds like you've given two example options.

One where everything is possible to a given character. And one where all things exist.

I always assumed that the passage was talking about the second option. But again, there is not really that much difference.

Looking at the first option:   You want to fly, to lift tanks, to see through things... It is possible in shadow, you just have to find a shadow where local laws allow it, or give everyone telekinesis, whatever, because everything you want to do is possible somewhere. But, still for exemple, archangels don't exist in shadow, because everything doesn't exist.
So I can do anything, in the right place, but archangels don't exist in shadow. I'll go to a place where I have cosmic genie powers, and create archangels.

Or, dealing with the second option:   You want to find archangels in shadow. They exist (everything exists). But it is not possible for you to fly, because, well, you're just a human, and everything's not possible).
OK, so everything exists (btw, this is how I read meaning of the passage in the book). Since everything exists, I'll find a magic potion, which gives anybody who drinks it the power of flight, and fly that way.

Either way though, I'll get my flight, and have my army of angels too.

Quote from: Croaker;371774

QuoteAs a GM, it has always been my philosophy that guns, phasers, light-sabers, Stormbringer, jedi-kinghts, kryptonians, and Green-Lantern-Rings, all fit into one category of very powerful creatures/items which do not cost points, yet do not work far outside their home shadows. Whereas items made with those special Amber DRPG qualities, like Merlin's Frakir, cost points and will be reliable pretty much anywhere.

However, I do not think that the above is an ideal solution.

Why?
If it poses you no problem with magic and dragons, why would it be more difficult with phasers and kryptonians?

Especially with kryptonians, in fact: We already know that, under different light wavelength (red sun), they lose their powers. It is so difficult to imagine that the superman's earth sunlight is very specific? Or that their powers also require other home-related conditions (like a specific mass for carbon atoms, add 1/1000000 of that and it doesn't work)?

I don't have any problem with kryptonicans losing their powers, but that is not what I was referring to when I said it was not an idea solution.

My problem is more with a T-rex, or an electric eel, losing their abilities.

My problem is also with the idea that Amberites can specifically search for things which are "universal." Other than with some very specific instances (like cars, or gun-powder), this issue really isn't dealt with very much in the books.

Quote from: Croaker;371774

Quote from: warp9;371681

Quote from: weilide;371571It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

In fact, in game terms, this comes down to a pretty simple question: can I get what I want in my character's private shadow? Or do I need to GM to go over every bit of it to make sure that it is stuff which can "exist in shadow" ?

For the Nth time: YES, because your shadow local laws are tailored to suit it, whatever it is. Go outside and, deprived of your shadow's support, somethings won't work.

I'd point out that the question was not actually addressed to you. And if somebody says, as weilide did that "certain things are simply not available in shadow" then it follows that those things would not be available in any shadow, even one's own personal shadows.

Quote from: Evermasterx;371899Why don't we try to build this dragon actually with the points?
Remember that the rules say that every quality/power that costs more than 4 points is NOT available to players.
Here is my take:
Immense Vitality - 4 points
Engine Speed - 4 points
Amber Stamina - 2 points
Combat Reflexes - 2 points
Resistant to Normal Weapons - 1 point
Double Damage - 2 points
no rules for fly or fire breath in the C&I section, but it's a fire dragon, so he can do it per default.
total: 15 points = 15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
So if you succeeded into befriend/dominate him (it's not granted) you've got your dragon, so powerful, and as much expensive...
It looks to me that in this case the rules are not that bad.

But did you actually follow the rules?

The rules say that the basic creature, and its abilities are free.

So if your basic creature is a fire dragon, then everything should be free.


But if your basic creature is not a fire dragon, then what is the base creature? Maybe we can be a bit un-specific about our base creature. . . .

Actually that reminds me of a line H.P. Lovecraft used to describe Byakhee:
   they were not altogether crows, nor moles, nor buzzards, nor ants, nor decomposed human beings, but something I cannot and must not recall.

That would be like an Amber creature where the player didn't know what to base it on. :D

Quote from: warp9;372058I appreciate your candor in terms of the admission of inconsistency. It just seems like too big a disparity between sometimes finding big things very easily, and sometimes going by the points and taking forever.

I can imagine having a GM decide to go by the points, and have one PC take forever to find an iron golem out in shadow. And then later have a different PC easily find a D&D type shadow, where the character then uses his vast wealth (pretty much a given for Amberites) to buy an iron golem from some powerful wizard. That would not make any sense, and be unfair to the guy who spent forever looking for the iron golem.



I'm not sure I follow this perspective. Sure, a small amount of time and attention during the game to do the hell-riding is great. But we are talking about larger amounts of time.

I'd like to take more time to focus on role-playing out the interesting things. Days upon days upon days of hell riding gets boring pretty fast.

I guess I am allowing a look behind the curtain here. To the players my ruling would appear consistent. In the case of a Golem I would get a cost say 8 points then base time on that (although as noted above i might well use a different method than that given to work out how long a hellride.
I agree a long hellride is dull.

Quote from: warp9;372068But did you actually follow the rules?

The rules say that the basic creature, and its abilities are free.

So if your basic creature is a fire dragon, then everything should be free.


But if your basic creature is not a fire dragon, then what is the base creature? Maybe we can be a bit un-specific about our base creature. . . .

Actually that reminds me of a line H.P. Lovecraft used to describe Byakhee:
   they were not altogether crows, nor moles, nor buzzards, nor ants, nor decomposed human beings, but something I cannot and must not recall.

That would be like an Amber creature where the player didn't know what to base it on. :D

This is where I came in earlier. The issue is what is for free and what governs the ability to traverse shadow.

If a base red dragon is free then all items are free. You want to find a doppleganger, free, a Hydra, free, an army of angels, free, superman , free.
Then you get does free stuff loose its power travelling through shadow? If yes then what powers? all of them? If I get a free red dragon (who might come to 15 points if stated) then I pay for an additional point of armour does that mean this one point creature is now real as opposed to a free dragon or are all dragons just as real as each other?

This is the inherent inconsistancy that I would try to counter with my case by case (possibly inconsistent) judgement.

Now I note that you throw up obstacles but you aren't really laying down many solutions. How you you cost that red dragon? An army of Angels?

Is there space here for us to produce a workable house rule we coudl all take a way and playtest?

If we did that mine would rely on judgement and look like ...

The inherent natural abilities of a creature are free. Natural abilities include -

• Intelligence
• Strength due to size - so a horse is as strong as a horse and a T-Rex is as strong as a 50 feet giant lizard, but superman's strength is not natural as it goes beyond the strength for a mansized creature
• Movement - as based on a natural thing, so a hawk can fly at engine speed becuase they can, a dragon can fly , a horse can gallop etc

Powers above these need to be paid for even where mythology tells us that they are inherent. So a basilisk's stony gaze needs to be priced (GM call on how much special attacks cost but a petrifying gaze ought to go for 4 points) as does a dragon's breath weapon, etc. This prevents a PC finding an army of black bolts for free becuase Black bolts powers are inherent to him.
Technology doe not work in Amber, so a robot will not function. Magic does work in amber but may need to be tweaked so a golem (effectively a robot powered by magic) can me made to work if a player with Sorcery works on it.
Time taken to locate creatures in shadow is exponenetial pbased on the point cost. A 1 point power takes 2 hours a 2 point power 4 hours a 4 point power 16 hours (the GM can modify the base value to temper the speed of shadow walking in their game a 2 hour base means power creatures will be fast to find a 4 hour base means they will be far slower.)
[/I]

Now that is a bit wooly and I haven't thought through all the exceptions or given examples but is that where we are heading ? or do you have a more radical proposal?

Quote from: jibbajibba;372081or do you have a more radical proposal?

Yes and no.

I don't have any proposal which is solves all the problems and is totally consistent with all the books. However, I have my doubts that the books themselves are totally consistent with all the books. ;)


One option is to go with the following premise:    
All creatures and items are free.

A Prince of Amber is kind of like an iceberg, in that he has a shadow part of him (analogous to the part of the iceberg which is above water), and the greater part, (which is the real part that is like the part of the iceberg hidden below the water)

Princes of Amber, and Lords of Chaos, are real, but all their shadow toys are irrelevant, except as expressions of personal style (basically window dressing).

A shadow person only sees the shadow part of a Prince of Amber's body, not the Prince's true essence. And his description of a battle between two princes of Amber would mistakenly focus on the reflections/shadows of the battle, along with their shadow toys. But the shadow person would not see the real/actual conflict, which takes place on a deeper level of reality.

A prince's toys will often be reflections of his true nature. For example, Gerard might ride into a battle mounted on a HUGE war elephant, or commanding a HUGE star-ship. Even his shadow body is very large. But his true power doesn't come from these things, they are merely reflections of the principle of strength which is Gerard.

That is one option I've been considering. It is not all that consistent with the books. But it would solve a number of problems.

Quote from: warp9;372086Yes and no.

I don't have any proposal which is solves all the problems and is totally consistent with all the books. However, I have my doubts that the books themselves are totally consistent with all the books. ;)


One option is to go with the following premise:    
All creatures and items are free.

A Prince of Amber is kind of like an iceberg, in that he has a shadow part of him (analogous to the part of the iceberg which is above water), and the greater part, (which is the real part that is like the part of the iceberg hidden below the water)

Princes of Amber, and Lords of Chaos, are real, but all their shadow toys are irrelevant, except as expressions of personal style (basically window dressing).

A shadow person only sees the shadow part of a Prince of Amber's body, not the Prince's true essence. And his description of a battle between two princes of Amber would mistakenly focus on the reflections/shadows of the battle, along with their shadow toys. But the shadow person would not see the real/actual conflict, which takes place on a deeper level of reality.

A prince's toys will often be reflections of his true nature. For example, Gerard might ride into a battle mounted on a HUGE war elephant, or commanding a HUGE star-ship. Even his shadow body is very large. But his true power doesn't come from these things, they are merely reflections of the principle of strength which is Gerard.

That is one option I've been considering. It is not all that consistent with the books. But it would solve a number of problems.

It's an interesting idea but I don't think it fits the setting. I think its a little too metaphysical.

If we translate your position into actual usable game rules You are saying that no matter what resources a PC can bring to bear the only important thing is his inner essence his true nature if you will? So I can go and find a magic sword but it doesn't have any features per se it is just a war of me deploying my Warfare in a combat. I can find a ring that can store many spells but it s not important as the ability to cast spells is inherent to me in any case?

I just don't see how that works in reality. Corwin gets an army of angels and attacks amber which is defended by Benedict on his own. Who wins? What if Benedict could train some local shopkeepers and arm them with pitchforks?
What is a PC wants an item that he doesn't have powers for. A ring with limited shadow walking capability for someone with no Pattern?

I can't really see how this idea works in an RPG. I can see how it might work in a board or card game where an Amberite has pools of resources of different aspects and deploys things that cost points from those pools, and those things have specific effects. But how do you work out how long it takes Bleys to find that elusive army of Black Bolts?

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087It's an interesting idea but I don't think it fits the setting. I think its a little too metaphysical.

Quite possibly.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087If we translate your position into actual usable game rules You are saying that no matter what resources a PC can bring to bear the only important thing is his inner essence his true nature if you will? So I can go and find a magic sword but it doesn't have any features per se it is just a war of me deploying my Warfare in a combat.

Yes, that is basically what I'm suggesting.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087I can find a ring that can store many spells but it s not important as the ability to cast spells is inherent to me in any case?

The spells themselves have to be taken in the proper context. I would tend to place both spells and sorcery in the realm of "window-dressing."

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087I just don't see how that works in reality. Corwin gets an army of angels and attacks amber which is defended by Benedict on his own. Who wins?

Going with this view of things, those shadow-beings have no real power, and can't have an impact on a real battle. Corwin might as well attack with an army of imaginary friends.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087What is a PC wants an item that he doesn't have powers for. A ring with limited shadow walking capability for someone with no Pattern?

I would assume that such a game would almost require a that the PCs be "real" meaning they would all either be Princes of Amber, or Lords of Chaos.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087I can't really see how this idea works in an RPG.

The best analogy I can think of to another RPG is the way character function in the virtual reality of the matrix in Shadowrun (at least in earlier editions of the game). The matrix persona and weapons the character carries are symbolic of deeper abilities. A character with a rating 6 attack program loaded up may be symbolized by an avatar with a sword, or a gun, or an axe. But that is only a reflection (or shadow) of the real power of the attack algorithm. An elaborate looking weapon is only window dressing, and no matter how impressive it looks, it actually means nothing.


In many ways, this set-up comes fairly close to what I'm describing for the Amber game.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372087But how do you work out how long it takes Bleys to find that elusive army of Black Bolts?

In the situation I'm suggesting, finding an army of Black Bolts is no harder than finding an army of purple chihuahuas.

Quote from: warp9;372089Quite possibly.


Yes, that is basically what I'm suggesting.


The spells themselves have to be taken in the proper context. I would tend to place both spells and sorcery in the realm of "window-dressing."


Going with this view of things, those shadow-beings have no real power, and can't have an impact on a real battle. Corwin might as well attack with an army of imaginary friends.




I would assume that such a game would almost require a that the PCs be "real" meaning they would all either be Princes of Amber, or Lords of Chaos.



The best analogy I can think of to another RPG is the way character function in the virtual reality of the matrix in Shadowrun (at least in earlier editions of the game). The matrix persona and weapons the character carries are symbolic of deeper abilities. A character with a rating 6 attack program loaded up may be symbolized by an avatar with a sword, or a gun, or an axe. But that is only a reflection (or shadow) of the real power of the attack algorithm. An elaborate looking weapon is only window dressing, and no matter how impressive it looks, it actually means nothing.


In many ways, this set-up comes fairly close to what I'm describing for the Amber game.



In the situation I'm suggesting, finding an army of Black Bolts is no harder than finding an army of purple chihuahuas.

I thought that was about it.
That would be a very differnt game. Different from the ADRPG and different from the books. I think to a large extent you would be 'throwing the baby out with the bath-water' . For me one of the keys to Amber is that the characters are very real and for al their powers very grounded. I also think that what you describe comes close to what I understand Nobilis is about and moves you a long way from some of the basics of the Amberverse.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372096I thought that was about it.
That would be a very differnt game. Different from the ADRPG and different from the books. I think to a large extent you would be 'throwing the baby out with the bath-water' . For me one of the keys to Amber is that the characters are very real and for al their powers very grounded. I also think that what you describe comes close to what I understand Nobilis is about and moves you a long way from some of the basics of the Amberverse.

I agree. It does go a ways from the ADRPG and from the books.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371858But equally saying okay a world with dragons is fine , dragons are inherrent so are free however free dragons can't travel to Amber and keep their powers, doesn't feel right either as asking for 'meta' stuff like gunpowder that works in Amber or a dragon that works in Amber doesn't fit the books and why does a dragon from shadow loose its power when a horse from shadow is fine. :)

I don't see why.

A gun's abilities are a function of local shadow laws. So is a dragon's breath. Take these away, and both gun and dragon lose their powers.

So you'll say, what about the flight? Yeah, what about it. Do you really think a creature as massive could fly? This is supported by magic (and thus, local shadow laws). Take that away, it won't fly.
You've also got the question of a dragon's life. If it requires local magic to live, it will sicken and die outside of its home shadow.
If you want a dragon that don't conform to these (like, he's his own magical generator), this already becomes far more improbable, and then, you use the points to determine the time it takes, just as wujcik said.

Thing is, again, Amber defines the standard, what you'll find in most shadows. But there'll be shadows where local laws just don't allow oxygen to be breathable, for exemple, but people will be able to "breathe" magic. A horse would die there, while a dragon could be fine.

I really, really, don't see the problem here, at least so long as no one is trying to be a jerk and munchkinny about it (but you can have these players, with similar effects, in any system, this is not a flaw of Amber)

Quote from: Evermasterx;37189915 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.

This is really, really important.

The more powerfull something will be, the more rare it'll be, the more difficult it'll be to find one that's naturally well-disposed towards you.
I mean, if 1/1000 human finds you naturally great, no problem. There are lots of these in shadow, so, statistically, you're sure there are some. But exceptionnal humans? Say, how many Bruce Lee did we see? And he was just a 1-point creature. Let's be generous and say 2. You get the idea.

Quote from: jibbajibba;371906I totlaly beleive that in the books Corwin could have got to a Pern like shadow from Amber in far less than 2 weeks. I suspect once outside the limits of Arden he would have been there in a day and that isn't one dragon that is a horde (or maybe even shadow wide) of Dragon ( for a x3/4 multiplier = 6 - 8 weeks ) .

I can cross my town very center in about 15 minutes.

There's a guy I know which lives in it. I don't know where. If I look at each house, I'll find him. But it'll take me far more time than to simply cross the town center.
On the other hand, if I just want someone, anyone, I only have to ring the next door.

In Amber? This is like finding an exceptionnal army (which no one does) vs finding an army (which corwin does). You'll notice he just seeks out men loyal to him, he doesn't even specify their appearance (which could have been a problem if he wanted them to become spies).

Even admitting he went to Pern, this'd have been useless if:
- They didn't want to follow him. He'd need a Pern with people loyal to him. This already becomes less probable
- Their dragons just fell outside their own shadow, deprived of the local laws that allowed their unconscious psychic power/magic/unobtainium bones to support them.

Quote from: warp9;372058I can imagine having a GM decide to go by the points, and have one PC take forever to find an iron golem out in shadow. And then later have a different PC easily find a D&D type shadow, where the character then uses his vast wealth (pretty much a given for Amberites) to buy an iron golem from some powerful wizard. That would not make any sense, and be unfair to the guy who spent forever looking for the iron golem.

Absolutely not.

That first golem would be, say, directly powered by his home shadow (like a construct's manifestation), or whatever, allowing him to work a long time.
That second would rely on D&D-specific spells and enchantments that'd soon fail him.

Quote from: warp9;372062But there is a difference between explanations which actually make a fair amount of sense, and techno-babble.

Throwing out scientific sounding explanations, which only make sense if you don't think about them, is in the realm of tech-babble.

Then, you're denying one of Zelazny's basic tenets of Amber, which is that shadows have different physical laws and may vary widely in this.

Fine by you, but then, it is no longer Amber.

And if I may? I'm not knowledgeable enough about the universe and Physics to say this isn't possible. Are you? Really? I remind you again, the existence of Ether was scientific knowledge, saying anything else was "wrong". Even if you're knowledgeable enough, why would this be different with shadow laws and you couldn't be wrong?
And even if, really, sure, it's impossble, what's to say this isn't imposed by the Pattern/logrus? This is "magic-babble", of course

Sigh... I'm sorry, but it seems to me you're the only one creating your problems here, by searching a kind of scientific caution for Amber. I don't think you'll find it. Even Azimov, who was a real scientist, happened to be proven wrong at times by reality.
If I may, when playing Star Wars RPG, do you deny FTL travel and space dogfight as tech-babble and impossible? This is similar. You'd be ruining your game and fun there, and you are now.

Quote from: warp9;372062Here the difference is between accepting the existence of unknown forces, powers (trumps and magic), vs dealing with things which seem to contradict what I know (guns are dependent on physical laws, where as horses are not).

There are definitely some other possible explanations for why horses work in Amber but guns do not, but there is some baggage which goes along with those explanations.

Well, you know that this'd require these unknown forces to locally modify physics around each gun that fired?

How difficult is that to believed compared to something like "in this universe, sulfur atoms gain 1 more electron, which changes them enough so that gunpowder don't explode"?

And I'm asking you AGAIN.
Are you absolutely, positively, 100% sure (at least, as far as today's science can be) that it is impossible for any physical constant whatsoever (be it atomic mass, electric charge, gravity, planck constant, conductivity, those unseen dimensions, the cords too, quantum physics, whatever... There are an awful lot of these) to be different enough so that horses will be fine while gunpowder won't explode?

Quote from: warp9;372064I'll go to a place where I have cosmic genie powers, and create archangels.

Sure, although you're already exanding the bounds of what is possible for you to do.
But just as your cosmic genie powers, these won't be real. And thus won't exist outside that shadow.

What bugger me, though is, I was trying to explain to you, not give a perfect exemple, but knew I'd have that kind of reply instead

Quote from: warp9;372064Since everything exists, I'll find a magic potion, which gives anybody who drinks it the power of flight, and fly that way.

lol funny.
You do realize, of course, that this is casuistics? You're in fact searching for a magic power, the potion is just a special effect. In both cases, you're trying to "screw the DM".

I'm not trying to provide perfect exemple, just to explain to you the difference between being able to do anything you wanna do and to find any thing you wanna find.
Even IRL, you have this difference. But, well, I'm talking to the wind.

Quote from: warp9;372066My problem is more with a T-rex, or an electric eel, losing their abilities.

My problem is also with the idea that Amberites can specifically search for things which are "universal." Other than with some very specific instances (like cars, or gun-powder), this issue really isn't dealt with very much in the books.

Oh, that?

Of the 2, the eel is probably the most tricky, because of it's electric abilities. A T-Rex could probably live in Amber. I don't have any problem with it. The eel, I'm not sure, IIRC, there's a problem in Amber with electricty, so it might lose its powers at least somewhat.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean (In fact, I don't thing I understand it at all), but if it's such a problem, disallow it! I've told you before: In your game, you're not constrained to follow any of amber rules and tropes. Even if it has nothing to do with Amber in the end, this is your game, and what's important is for you and your players to have fun.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372081Now I note that you throw up obstacles but you aren't really laying down many solutions. How you you cost that red dragon? An army of Angels?

Yes, I've noticed that too, which has induced me to become angry and unnerved in my replies, even if I'm trying not to be :(.

Warp, you may not have realized it, but this attitude sounds very antagonistic.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372081The inherent natural abilities of a creature are free. Natural abilities include -

    * Intelligence
    * Strength due to size - so a horse is as strong as a horse and a T-Rex is as strong as a 50 feet giant lizard, but superman's strength is not natural as it goes beyond the strength for a mansized creature
    * Movement - as based on a natural thing, so a hawk can fly at engine speed becuase they can, a dragon can fly , a horse can gallop etc

Sounds fine by me, although I base their "natural abilities" under what they'd get in Amber, the real world.

Quote from: warp9;372086All creatures and items are free.

A Prince of Amber is kind of like an iceberg, in that he has a shadow part of him (analogous to the part of the iceberg which is above water), and the greater part, (which is the real part that is like the part of the iceberg hidden below the water)

Princes of Amber, and Lords of Chaos, are real, but all their shadow toys are irrelevant, except as expressions of personal style (basically window dressing).

A shadow person only sees the shadow part of a Prince of Amber's body, not the Prince's true essence. And his description of a battle between two princes of Amber would mistakenly focus on the reflections/shadows of the battle, along with their shadow toys. But the shadow person would not see the real/actual conflict, which takes place on a deeper level of reality.

A prince's toys will often be reflections of his true nature. For example, Gerard might ride into a battle mounted on a HUGE war elephant, or commanding a HUGE star-ship. Even his shadow body is very large. But his true power doesn't come from these things, they are merely reflections of the principle of strength which is Gerard.

That is one option I've been considering. It is not all that consistent with the books. But it would solve a number of problems.

I like this a lot, and think this might make a great, probably very memorable and epic game.
In fact, this'd be a great idea for that "amber-like game" in the other thread. I'll quote you there.

But, well, what if one player wanted a Huge creature? or any other huge toy? What would you do if, say, a a high-strenght player has a very big gun, and another search for a laser bazooka?
If the players went along, this's be fine, but an antagonist/munchkin one could really bother you

The only solution I'd see to this would be to say this is just special effects, appearance, so that laser bazooka would do less damage than the big gun. But then, he'd get antagonistic again and search for a laser gatling. You get the idea. So you'd need to base damage purely on a character. Like a "weapons" attribute which determine the damage of any weapon he might use, from a slingshot to a deathstar, the appearance being just fluff. You'd still have problem with that player, but, frankly, at a stage, if he didn't accept the base premise, I don't think he'd be worth it.

Of course, as you said, it wouldn't be Amber: In such a game, corwin and bleys wouldn't need an army to attack Amber, save from the "cool" factor. Similarly, guns would give them no edge.

Quote from: Croaker;372331

Quote from: jibbajibbaNow I note that you throw up obstacles but you aren't really laying down many solutions. How you you cost that red dragon? An army of Angels?

Yes, I've noticed that too, which has induced me to become angry and unnerved in my replies, even if I'm trying not to be :(.

Warp, you may not have realized it, but this attitude sounds very antagonistic.

In terms of "throwing up obstacles," there is no point in looking for new ways to do things if the old ways work fine. So my very first order of business is to show why I think that the old ways don't work. In order to do that, I have to play the devil's advocate.

However it was never my intent to make anybody angry or unnerved. In fact that is one of the reasons I've been slow to reply, I wanted to think about how to continue. . . . It troubles me that the conversation is making anybody feel bad.

Yet, if we go on, I do have some other suggestions for alternative solutions, which I plan on getting to in subsequent posts.

Quote from: Croaker;372331I like this a lot, and think this might make a great, probably very memorable and epic game.
In fact, this'd be a great idea for that "amber-like game" in the other thread. I'll quote you there.

Thanks! :)

Quote from: Croaker;372331But, well, what if one player wanted a Huge creature? or any other huge toy? What would you do if, say, a a high-strenght player has a very big gun, and another search for a laser bazooka?
If the players went along, this's be fine, but an antagonist/munchkin one could really bother you

The only solution I'd see to this would be to say this is just special effects, appearance, so that laser bazooka would do less damage than the big gun. But then, he'd get antagonistic again and search for a laser gatling. You get the idea. So you'd need to base damage purely on a character. Like a "weapons" attribute which determine the damage of any weapon he might use, from a slingshot to a deathstar, the appearance being just fluff. You'd still have problem with that player, but, frankly, at a stage, if he didn't accept the base premise, I don't think he'd be worth it.

Of course, as you said, it wouldn't be Amber: In such a game, corwin and bleys wouldn't need an army to attack Amber, save from the "cool" factor. Similarly, guns would give them no edge.

The "just special effects" answer you suggest above is pretty much the solution I had in mind.




To get to some of your other questions. . . .

Quote from: Croaker;372331And I'm asking you AGAIN.
Are you absolutely, positively, 100% sure (at least, as far as today's science can be) that it is impossible for any physical constant whatsoever (be it atomic mass, electric charge, gravity, planck constant, conductivity, those unseen dimensions, the cords too, quantum physics, whatever... There are an awful lot of these) to be different enough so that horses will be fine while gunpowder won't explode?

But it is not just gunpowder. It is cars and electricity, etc, none of those things work.

And it is specifically stated in the ADRPG book that the more sophisticated something is, the more likely it is to fail if you take it outside of its home shadow. If that is true, it should have consequences for living things as well. Clearly, your horse is more complex than a .44 magnum.

For example, if electricity doesn't work in Amber, then how do the impulses travel along the nerves in a living creature?

Quote from: Croaker;372331Sure, although you're already exanding the bounds of what is possible for you to do.
But just as your cosmic genie powers, these won't be real. And thus won't exist outside that shadow.

What bugger me, though is, I was trying to explain to you, not give a perfect exemple, but knew I'd have that kind of reply instead

QuoteSince everything exists, I'll find a magic potion, which gives anybody who drinks it the power of flight, and fly that way.

lol funny.
You do realize, of course, that this is casuistics? You're in fact searching for a magic power, the potion is just a special effect. In both cases, you're trying to "screw the DM".

I'm not trying to provide perfect exemple, just to explain to you the difference between being able to do anything you wanna do and to find any thing you wanna find.
Even IRL, you have this difference. But, well, I'm talking to the wind.

The whole point I'm making is that IMO, there is no difference between being able to do anything you wanna do and to find any thing you wanna find.

Being able to do anything includes being able to create those things you couldn't find.

And being able to find anything means finding some item which has the ability to confer the powers you want to have. A potion which confers powers is an object which might, or might not, exist. If everything exists, then that potion also exists.

But it seems like you are trying to make some other point here, and I'm not fully sure what you are getting at.

Quote from: Croaker;372331

QuoteMy problem is more with a T-rex, or an electric eel, losing their abilities.

Oh, that?

Of the 2, the eel is probably the most tricky, because of it's electric abilities. A T-Rex could probably live in Amber. I don't have any problem with it. The eel, I'm not sure, IIRC, there's a problem in Amber with electricty, so it might lose its powers at least somewhat.

But this gets right back to some very basic issues. Since nerve impulses are electric. If electricity doesn't work, then how do nerve impulses work? And if an electric eel works, then it implies that you could have other variations on this type of creature.

Quote from: Croaker;372331

QuoteMy problem is also with the idea that Amberites can specifically search for things which are "universal." Other than with some very specific instances (like cars, or gun-powder), this issue really isn't dealt with very much in the books.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean (In fact, I don't thing I understand it at all), but if it's such a problem, disallow it! I've told you before: In your game, you're not constrained to follow any of amber rules and tropes. Even if it has nothing to do with Amber in the end, this is your game, and what's important is for you and your players to have fun.

What do I mean? I'm talking about the idea that a character fully knows the difference between searching for a dragon, and a "real dragon."  ("real"meaning in this context "costs points")

Now I totally agree that this perspective of "universal" vs "local" follows from the rules in the ADRPG books. In the rule books, I would agree that it seems like there is a difference between finding items/creatures that have their own inherent abilities, and items/creatures that cost points. There is clearly a difference between finding something which is naturally stronger than Gerard, and finding something which has the special quality: "Exalted Vitality." The books suggests it would be easy to find a bulldozer (or even a bull) which is stronger than Gerard, yet "Exalted Vitality" is actually banned from access to the PCs.

But what I'm saying is that we really don't see this come up in the Zelazny books. We don't hear Corwin ever say: "that is a great dragon you found, but is it real enough to function in Amber?"

Sure, we see that gun-powder, and cars, and electricity, don't work in Amber, but we don't really see the issue in regard to other things. We can infer that perhaps the same effect would apply to gods or super-beings, but we don't really see it. And if we actually follow that line of logic, in terms of applying issues of changing physical laws to living creatures, it leads us to question stuff like the working of bio-electric never impulses.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372096I also think that what you describe comes close to what I understand Nobilis is about and moves you a long way from some of the basics of the Amberverse.

Not exactly. In Nobilis, there's a distinction between the miraculous and the mundane: the things that have a singular independent existence of their own (for example, Nobles), and the things whose existence only reflects the most fundamental concepts in the universe (for example, humans). However, all things mundane are still quite real and can interact with miraculous beings of their own free will. Armies of mortals can conceivably kill gods in the setting, and actually have done so at least three times during the course of the recorded history.

Quote from: jibbajibba;372096I thought that was about it.
That would be a very differnt game. Different from the ADRPG and different from the books. I think to a large extent you would be 'throwing the baby out with the bath-water' . For me one of the keys to Amber is that the characters are very real and for al their powers very grounded. I also think that what you describe comes close to what I understand Nobilis is about and moves you a long way from some of the basics of the Amberverse.

I'll add a bit to what I've already said about this matter. . . .

In the Shadowrun Matrix analogy, you have two different levels. There is a deeper level of what is going on with attack/defense programs. And then you have a more superficial level which is a reflection of that combat that is represents in terms of the virtual reality of the matrix as some kind of "physical combat" with weapons and the like. Yet, even though this "physical combat" is only a shadow/refection of the actual events, it can still seem realistic, if it is handled correctly.  

Or, to put it in another way, there is nothing which prohibits characters in the virtual reality to have abilities that feel "very real and very grounded," but that is an illusion one has to craft.

In fact, it is not much different from the work of an author who plans the general plot out, and then fits the details of the story to match his design. With a bad author, the story seems wooden, but a good author can probably make the process flow naturally, even though the details were actually made to fit from the top down.

What I'm suggesting is in some ways similar to the discussion about playing out a game of chess in the ADRPG book. Rather than focusing on the minutia of the game and the specific moves on the board, you let more abstract principles guide the outcome of the chess match. However, a good GM can still make the conflict in the game seem grounded and realistic.

In this sort of situation the army of angels could represent the manifestation of some deeper advantage that a character might have (just like a bigger weapon in the Shadowrun Matrix might represent a better attack program), rather than the other way around.

Again, things can still seem real and grounded from the shadow person's point of view, it's just important to have the details of the battle in shadow reality accurately reflect the underlying reality.

To sum things up: this manner of looking at things which I'm describing doesn't have to be as far from Zelazny's work as you might think.

Quote from: warp9;373086In terms of "throwing up obstacles," there is no point in looking for new ways to do things if the old ways work fine. So my very first order of business is to show why I think that the old ways don't work. In order to do that, I have to play the devil's advocate.

Thing is, problem is that it feels to me like your arguments are heavily depending on requisites you tell us, like "no limited shadow", or "I want a amber that is a science book, not a litterary book". We follow your rules, which gives you a great leaway to say "no, no, no, no", thus being frustating.
Like, your "weapons are fluff" setting poses you absolutely no problem of "science", yet you are very nitpicky about it in the base setting. I just wanna reap my hairs but, sadly, I don't have them anymore.

I disagree very much that things don't work if you play them by the book, if you allow yourself the same kind of suspension of disbelief you give to Zelazny's works.

Quote from: warp9;373086For example, if electricity doesn't work in Amber, then how do the impulses travel along the nerves in a living creature?

IIRC, it works (You've got lightning bolts, after all), but differently enough that most electric-based things are useless.
If, for exemple, metals are less conductive, you can very well have electrical impulses work and not computers.
Or maybe they're reduced in intensity/voltage. Or difficult to impossible to store.
Maybe this si stupid, maybe not. This is just what a writer would do: Provide a pseudo-scientific explanation that allows him to tell te story he wants to tell. If this wasn't possible, we wouldn't have the AMber books as they are.

This may perfectly be impossible and all. Yet, this is right there, in the books of zelazny. So what'll you do about it if you feel so bad about this?
IMO, you have 2 solutions:
- Do not play Amber as Zelazny wrote it, with its bizarre physical laws
- Magic it away, like "The pattern sustains life, so it works either I think it shouldn't". Better yet: "It works that way, yet no one has managed to find why", and spins a story out of it.

You're your only and worst ennemy, not the books or rules. I don't want to be offensive, but, if this is such a big issue for you, I wonder of you could take pleasure to the books, since this exists in both corwin and merlin's sagas.

Quote from: warp9;373086But what I'm saying is that we really don't see this come up in the Zelazny books. We don't hear Corwin ever say: "that is a great dragon you found, but is it real enough to function in Amber?"

Sure, we see that gun-powder, and cars, and electricity, don't work in Amber, but we don't really see the issue in regard to other things. We can infer that perhaps the same effect would apply to gods or super-beings, but we don't really see it. And if we actually follow that line of logic, in terms of applying issues of changing physical laws to living creatures, it leads us to question stuff like the working of bio-electric never impulses.

Maybe we don't see it exactly because of this.

You're corwin. You want to attack Amber. What will you do? Spend a couple days to search for a trained and faithfull army, or spend a month to search for a dragon you might not be able to control?
Likewise, you don't see merlin search shadows for spikards and pattern swords.

Most of the time, when amberites search for something, they search for something mundane. Maybe you don't see them search for super heroes because they know that:
- They'd be useless in Amber
- A usefull one would take a very long time to find, and pose its own problems.

To me, the absence of this kind of things can as easily prove the whole point. In fact, I think it's actually more coherent that way.

Also, about physical laws and superbeings: Are such things actually possible here?
Let me take the superman exemple. To you, you may find Superman in shadow, with strength enough to lift planes. No problem with that, right?
Put him here, with his strenght, the whole "lift a plane" trick he performs lots and times becomes impossible. Because the plane would just break in half.
Here you have it. Comic book physics being different from RL physics, which happens a lot of times.

If you accept comic book physics out there in shadow, different from "Shadow Earth" physics, where is the problem with other, variant physics? I'll tell you. Comic book physics, just as Amber physics, are not science. They're not supposed to be logical or explain every little detail. They're supposed to be a literrary device and a tool. No one question the effects of superman's strength (not the fact that he can control his strenght to such a degree. Think about it, I can't even understand how he does it), because then, it would be a very different story, one superman fans don't want to read.

Quote from: warp9;373563To sum things up: this manner of looking at things which I'm describing doesn't have to be as far from Zelazny's work as you might think.

For an Amber games, problems as I see them:
- Shadow, as a place to find ressources and allies, becomes useless. The princes have no reasons to get there, everything that matters is your own personnal power in Amber
- Why raises armies to attack Amber?
- Why do the gunpowder gives so much of an advantage?

What I'd do is maybe something like this:
- Have an "artifacts" rating, like human/chaos/amber/ranked
- Have some levels of battle, like individual (me and my weapon), squad (me and my names and numbered fellows), battle (me and my horde) and War (me and my army)
- This rating defines the efficiency of your shadow findings, in their category. Like, your gun's power, your squad skill, your army's strenght
- If you search for a weapon, it performs at your artifacts rating. If you take more time and search for a squad, same thing. Thus, your Amber weapon and you may face your opponent and his Chaos Squad.
- That way, it seems to me you can both use your "fluff" idea and yet have shadows be a usefull ressource. Likewise, you get a reason for Corwin and Bleys raising armies instead of just attacking Amber with their bare fists.

What do you think of it? It might be what you're seeking

Quote from: Croaker;373591Thing is, problem is that it feels to me like your arguments are heavily depending on requisites you tell us, like "no limited shadow", or "I want a amber that is a science book, not a litterary book". We follow your rules, which gives you a great leaway to say "no, no, no, no", thus being frustating.
Like, your "weapons are fluff" setting poses you absolutely no problem of "science", yet you are very nitpicky about it in the base setting. I just wanna reap my hairs but, sadly, I don't have them anymore.

It is about the underlying concepts involved. . . . I want something that holds up to deeper inspection.

Limited Shadow is a valid option, just not one that I like. For example, I know of one GM who stated that there was no technology anywhere in Shadow beyond 1970s Shadow Earth tech. That option is not to my personal taste, but it is one way you might do things.

In terms of my "weapons are fluff" concept, the "fluff" part goes beyond weapons. It is like the line from the Matrix : "there is no spoon." In my a world based on my concept, there is no spoon, there is no sword, and there is no science. All these things are just shadows and illusions. But that is a different view of the fundamentals than most GM's take. If you assume that there is a spoon, and there is a sword, and that molecules exist, and that scientific laws exist, then you need to follow that assumption to its logical conclusions.  

Quote from: Croaker;373591I disagree very much that things don't work if you play them by the book, if you allow yourself the same kind of suspension of disbelief you give to Zelazny's works.

IIRC, it works (You've got lightning bolts, after all), but differently enough that most electric-based things are useless.
If, for exemple, metals are less conductive, you can very well have electrical impulses work and not computers.
Or maybe they're reduced in intensity/voltage. Or difficult to impossible to store.
Maybe this si stupid, maybe not. This is just what a writer would do: Provide a pseudo-scientific explanation that allows him to tell te story he wants to tell. If this wasn't possible, we wouldn't have the AMber books as they are.

This may perfectly be impossible and all. Yet, this is right there, in the books of zelazny. So what'll you do about it if you feel so bad about this?
IMO, you have 2 solutions:
- Do not play Amber as Zelazny wrote it, with its bizarre physical laws
- Magic it away, like "The pattern sustains life, so it works either I think it shouldn't". Better yet: "It works that way, yet no one has managed to find why", and spins a story out of it.

You're your only and worst ennemy, not the books or rules. I don't want to be offensive, but, if this is such a big issue for you, I wonder of you could take pleasure to the books, since this exists in both corwin and merlin's sagas.

The difference between the author Zelazny and a GM is simple. Zelazny's characters don't ask questions he doesn't want them to ask. On the other hand, a GM may have to deal with PCs that do ask these kinds of questions.

When I'm  running a character in an Amber game, it is very possibly that my character would try to push the limits, and ask those questions.

My character might bring an army of scientists to Amber and try to find out specifically how things are different. He might want to look into why living creatures, like horses, work, but other things do not. And he might explore specifically how technology can be adapted to work in Amber. If metals are not good conductors of electricity, then what substances might be good substitutes? My character might try to bring in various genetically modified creatures, and find the limits of what will work in Amber. Do carbon fiber bones work in Amber? What kinds of muscle augmentations will work in Amber? How far can I enhance a creature's nervous system and have it function in Amber?

Once I had that data, my character would prepare the way for his clone army of master ninjas, which are all genetically altered with stuff like carbon-fiber bones, augmented muscles, enhanced reflexes, and the genetic code from electric eels that lets them shock people. These clones wouldn't have to be kryptonians, but they'd push the limits of whatever physical laws exist in Amber.

If my character was doing this sort of stuff, then it would force the GM to deal with these issues, or throw me out of his game.

Quote from: Croaker;373591You're corwin. You want to attack Amber. What will you do? Spend a couple days to search for a trained and faithfull army, or spend a month to search for a dragon you might not be able to control?

It didn't take Random long to find a place with no sun, where the rocks glide across the landscape. And I'll add, that he was not searching just any such shadow, but the specific one where Brand was being held. It is hard for me to believe that a dragon is more exotic than that.

Quote from: Croaker;373591For an Amber games, problems as I see them:
- Shadow, as a place to find ressources and allies, becomes useless. The princes have no reasons to get there, everything that matters is your own personnal power in Amber
- Why raises armies to attack Amber?
- Why do the gunpowder gives so much of an advantage?

What I'd do is maybe something like this:
- Have an "artifacts" rating, like human/chaos/amber/ranked
- Have some levels of battle, like individual (me and my weapon), squad (me and my names and numbered fellows), battle (me and my horde) and War (me and my army)
- This rating defines the efficiency of your shadow findings, in their category. Like, your gun's power, your squad skill, your army's strenght
- If you search for a weapon, it performs at your artifacts rating. If you take more time and search for a squad, same thing. Thus, your Amber weapon and you may face your opponent and his Chaos Squad.
- That way, it seems to me you can both use your "fluff" idea and yet have shadows be a usefull ressource. Likewise, you get a reason for Corwin and Bleys raising armies instead of just attacking Amber with their bare fists.

What do you think of it? It might be what you're seeking

That is an interesting idea, I'll have to give it some consideration (I'm not fully sure I understand exactly what you have in mind, and I may have some more questions about it).

However, I'll also add the following. . . .

One thing to keep in mind here are that the details of the physical battle can be a reflection of the underlying forces.

The resolution of the battle happens at a deeper (real) level, the resulting description of the battle (weapons and armies) happens as a reflection of the true battle.

For example, at a deeper level, we know that character A has a big advantage over character B. This advantage at the primal level is reflected into the resulting battle-narrative as the victor having an army of angels.

Thus you didn't win because you were aided by an army of angels, instead you won, and then the resulting victory manifested as being assisted by an army of angels.

Or to put in a different way, you don't worry about the specifics of attacking with an army of angels, or with bare hands, etc, instead you let the narrative concerning the specifics at this level follow from the deeper realities of the conflict. Which is not to say that you wouldn't have a big say in the specifics of the physical manifestation of the battle. It is just that these things would follow later, as a matter of personal style and taste.

Quote from: weilide;371571Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

As I've already indicated, I'd tend to say that a character can find what he can visualize. And while a character can visualize gunpowder, and seek it, the "ignites in Amber" part is a totally abstract concept.

A character off in Shadow wouldn't know if the gunpowder in front of him worked in Amber or not. He'd have to take it there and try it out. I'd have the same problems if the PCs wanted to "search for a kindly old hermit who happens to have the correct answers to all mysteries currently facing our characters." I'd let them find the hermit, but I'd have problems when what they are searching for gets to abstract. Of course that is just my opinion about Shadow seeking, and YMMV.

In any case, I quoted the text above because of the "Library of Babel" reference. And while, as I said before on that topic, I don't think that the process of searching through Shadow was all that random in the books, this still might be an interesting alternative method to handle things in the game.

This concept goes in the opposite direction from the "shadow fluff" concept, I was suggesting earlier. Instead, with this alternative, Shadow is all too real.

In this alternative, the realm of Shadow is much more mysterious, and dangerous. This set up could use the ripple shadow-geography suggested by jibbajibba in the Historical Amber thread, rather than the more standard Amber-Chaos geography. Amber would be a "point of light" that slowly faded off into the unknown darkness of Shadow. The characters would have to feel their way around and explore the unknown.

A character's personal shadow would more likely be some place that the character found and made their own, rather than something which was really their "perfect dream shadow."

A character's army would probably consist of what ever creatures he could happen to find, rather than the "perfect dream army."

These things would violate the description of the control Amberites had over their Shadow destinations in the books, but I think it might lead to an interesting result in terms of a game.

Added on edit: one difference from the "The Library of Babel" concept is that in the library situation, most of the books are filled with gibberish. The analogous situation in terms of Shadows would probably be totally barren worlds; however, I wouldn't like think that most worlds would be totally barren---that could get a bit boring.

Part of the source behind all of this is that ADRP is a game and hence, should be fairly balanced.  It's not much fun for everyone if one player finds an army of supermen in 5 minutes and compeltely takes over Amber and executes all of his siblings.  Might be the shrotest Throne War in existence.

At any rate, the books don't have to have things be balanced.

Also, a reason that no one in the books did any of this is clearly detailed in the Merlin series from two instances.

First is Ghostwheel.  When Random finds out about it, he orders Merlin to shut it down.  It's simply too dangerous for anyone to mess around with it.

Second is LSD.  Merlin talks about how he spoke with Fiona about LSD and Acid Trips.  She mentions how she considered weaponizing it, but decided it just wasn't worth it.  I forget her specific reason, whether it be practicality or too dangerous for what someone might Shadow into existence.

Now that I think about it, Brand is another good example.  When confronting Benedict at the Pattern in the sky, he talks about dark pacts to get secret information that gave his great power for great price.  All of the other Amberites think he's crazy to be messing around with it.

Anyway, when it comes down to it, the characters didn't pull this kind of stuff in the books because it was too unpredictable.  Those who did were considered unhinged.  Yes, Zelazney wrote it and it was convenient not to have somone pull a nuclear bomb out in Amber that actually works (talk about your Deus Ex Machina).

Quote from: downeymb;374067Part of the source behind all of this is that ADRP is a game and hence, should be fairly balanced.  It's not much fun for everyone if one player finds an army of supermen in 5 minutes and compeltely takes over Amber and executes all of his siblings.  Might be the shrotest Throne War in existence.

At any rate, the books don't have to have things be balanced.

That is true.

But I don't think it is too much to ask that a world based on them makes sense. If anybody could have easily found gunpowder that works in Amber, or some force that would have made gunpowder irrelevant, then the "Guns of Avalon" are nothing special, and the events in the books don't make that much sense.

What I'm after is an explanation of how things work that makes sense, and doesn't allow a smart PC to take too much advantage of the situation. I'd prefer to retro-fit the events in the books, if such a re-vision would allow for a more consistent view of the world which will also stand up to devious PCs during the game.

Quote from: downeymb;374067Also, a reason that no one in the books did any of this is clearly detailed in the Merlin series from two instances.

First is Ghostwheel.  When Random finds out about it, he orders Merlin to shut it down.  It's simply too dangerous for anyone to mess around with it.

Second is LSD.  Merlin talks about how he spoke with Fiona about LSD and Acid Trips.  She mentions how she considered weaponizing it, but decided it just wasn't worth it.  I forget her specific reason, whether it be practicality or too dangerous for what someone might Shadow into existence.

Now that I think about it, Brand is another good example.  When confronting Benedict at the Pattern in the sky, he talks about dark pacts to get secret information that gave his great power for great price.  All of the other Amberites think he's crazy to be messing around with it.

Anyway, when it comes down to it, the characters didn't pull this kind of stuff in the books because it was too unpredictable.  Those who did were considered unhinged.  Yes, Zelazney wrote it and it was convenient not to have somone pull a nuclear bomb out in Amber that actually works (talk about your Deus Ex Machina).

I agree with most of that too.

And this explanation of things will work fine if it is handled right between the GM and the PCs. However, it is my personal experience with PCs that having something be "unpredictable and dangerous" is often not enough to stop them from taking the risk.

Of course, having them act "unhinged," take the risks, and having it blow up in their faces, makes for some interesting gaming. ;)

Quote from: warp9;373749The difference between the author Zelazny and a GM is simple. Zelazny's characters don't ask questions he doesn't want them to ask. On the other hand, a GM may have to deal with PCs that do ask these kinds of questions.

When I'm running a character in an Amber game, it is very possibly that my character would try to push the limits, and ask those questions.

We keep coming up to this, yet I don't manage to explain it clearly, it seems.
You're saying that the world doesn't make sense, based on real-world physics. This is true. I'm just saying real-world physics don't apply in any way, and physics can be as whacky as you want them to be. If you can't accept this premise, sure, it doesn't work, and you'll never be happy with the setting as written by zelazny.

How to put it in another way?

Say, you're playing Marvel RPG, or Star Wars RPG, with all those super-scientists type. It is much more likely and realistic that one of these would notice physics behaving strangely, and some things, like the plane trick, optic blasts or hearing spaceships in space, being just plain "impossible".
Likewise, they could just as well push up the limits.
Yet not only would most players never do that, but, as long as they're good enough players, they'll accept that "pseudo-science" of comics to make sense, even though it "doesn't".

I'm not saying your players shoudn't make scientist-type characters. Just that if you say "yes, it's scientific and normal", they should not bring to you their flawed shadow physics and tell you "this ain't possible", but instead work within what you tell them about the world.
For exemple, in Ars Magica, the Humors (choleric, phlegmatic, melancholic...) are real. I'm sure this can be proven as stupid and inconsistent if you're nitpicky and knowleadgeable enough. But a good player will accept this as part of the game world, and have his surgeon search for better ways to balance humors instead of trying to invent penicilin and prove the setting wrong.
 
Similarly, in Amber, guns don't work, horses do, and yes, it's "scientific". Given that framework, your player is free to work, search and all, but if he's trying to undermine this (which is one of the basic rules of Amber books and games) by using "real world arguments", he's just being a jerk, IMO

Quote from: warp9;373749My character might bring an army of scientists to Amber and try to find out specifically how things are different. He might want to look into why living creatures, like horses, work, but other things do not. And he might explore specifically how technology can be adapted to work in Amber. If metals are not good conductors of electricity, then what substances might be good substitutes? My character might try to bring in various genetically modified creatures, and find the limits of what will work in Amber. Do carbon fiber bones work in Amber? What kinds of muscle augmentations will work in Amber? How far can I enhance a creature's nervous system and have it function in Amber?

- How things are different: First, these scientists would have a HARD time, since most to all of their tools wouldn't work. But, say that manage it. They conclusion? It's different because of the lenght of some superstring in Nth dimension. Of something similar. Yes, this is pseudo-science. Like super-science. Like magic in RPGs. Like non-euclidian creatures in Call of Cthulhu. If he sees a problem with this, why is he playing RPGs/reading books? anyway, he doesn't understand what his scientits tell him, but they assure him it's OK and normal.
- Why living creatures...: Similar answer.
- Metals: Great!!! Let him work, and, based on what you want, find, or not, solutions. This is the reverse of him accepting pseudo-science: Given that different framework, let him work and have fun.
- Same things for the rest: Try to stay coherent, let him have fun, give him rewards for him trying and working on this.

In game terms, how I'd do it? He's building a construct, or a C&A.
Any time/roleplay spend on this is "similar" to a shadow search, and points earned go towards buying the thingie, just like, in Shadow Knight (RPG), Martin has pattern-powered cyber implants that work in Amber. I'd throw problems and ennemies at him, too (since they don't want him to complete his project, they're not suicidal)
If he wants an army, going behind 1st stage will be very difficult and costy (like IRL), requiring items in various dangerous shadows (and thus stories, which, btw, earn him points to buy his army), maybe even to inscribe Pattern on his construct.

I see it as a give-give: You let him earn the fruits of his work and roleplay, and he trusts you, accepts your rulings, and doesn't act as a jerk. This is, IMO, valable for any RPG ruling. If one or both don't do this, the game ain't fun, and there's a problem.

Quote from: warp9;373749It didn't take Random long to find a place with no sun, where the rocks glide across the landscape. And I'll add, that he was not searching just any such shadow, but the specific one where Brand was being held. It is hard for me to believe that a dragon is more exotic than that.

Well, he was searching for Brand, which, being real, is rather easy to find in Shadow, unless he conceals himself into a rare and precious thing like the Blue Cave.

Quote from: warp9;373753For example, at a deeper level, we know that character A has a big advantage over character B. This advantage at the primal level is reflected into the resulting battle-narrative as the victor having an army of angels.

The problem is see with this is that, aside from rendering Shadow utterly useless, you rob the player of some freedom: What if he wants to go naked bare-handed against an inferior player who wants to go all "army of angels" and death stars?

That's why I'm proposing this rating: It is still usefull for Corwin and Bleys to go in Shadow and search an army instead of attacking Amber naked (and winning against the entire Arden guard + morgenstern + julian in armor + hellhounds), since War > Battle.
Yet, at the same time, what they find in Shadow is a reflection of their inner strenght. All they can do is find more of it, and thus "up the scale".

Quote from: warp9;373753Or to put in a different way, you don't worry about the specifics of attacking with an army of angels, or with bare hands, etc, instead you let the narrative concerning the specifics at this level follow from the deeper realities of the conflict. Which is not to say that you wouldn't have a big say in the specifics of the physical manifestation of the battle. It is just that these things would follow later, as a matter of personal style and taste.

The problem is see with this is that, like in Shadowrun, this means you concentrate more on mechanics and attributes than on descriptions and roleplay, unless you go all superheroic, with bullets being parried bare-handed (which is what happens in the matrix, where bullets and hands are fluff)

In the aforementionned "naked guy vs army of angels", trying to describe and roleplay the fight between the two players can be difficult and bothersome since you can't rely on mechanics like shadowrun does. And if it's irrelevant, it becomes like psyche battles, the whole fluff is pushed away, unless the naked guy suddenly has hyperspeed and strenght.

That's why, IMO, giving at least some reality to shadow helps, by giving similar conflicts while still letting some freedom to the PC descriptions: Even if it's an army of elves vs an army of terminators, at least it's 2 armies, and you can describe strategies/roleplay the battle, like ambushes and counterattacks and have something at least somewhat barely believable, like the Navis beating up some marines in battle armor.

Hum... Not sure I'm clear there.

Quote from: Croaker;374518We keep coming up to this, yet I don't manage to explain it clearly, it seems.
You're saying that the world doesn't make sense, based on real-world physics. This is true. I'm just saying real-world physics don't apply in any way, and physics can be as whacky as you want them to be. If you can't accept this premise, sure, it doesn't work, and you'll never be happy with the setting as written by zelazny.

How to put it in another way?

Say, you're playing Marvel RPG, or Star Wars RPG, with all those super-scientists type. It is much more likely and realistic that one of these would notice physics behaving strangely, and some things, like the plane trick, optic blasts or hearing spaceships in space, being just plain "impossible".
Likewise, they could just as well push up the limits.
Yet not only would most players never do that, but, as long as they're good enough players, they'll accept that "pseudo-science" of comics to make sense, even though it "doesn't".

There is a HUGE difference between things which require me to believe in some new factors, and things which actually contradict (or at least seem to contradict) what I know about the world.

Does magic exist in the real world? I haven't seen any evidence that it does, but I can't prove it doesn't either.

Is there such a thing as "hyper-space" where the speed of light is much higher than in normal space? Maybe, I don't know. But the existence of hyper-space doesn't specifically contradict what I know about reality.

On the other hand, sound effects in space does seem to contradict what I know about reality.

Do you see the difference here?

I have a lot easier time believing in the existence of some unknown factor (magic or hyper-space) than I do in believing in sound effects in space.


However, I would be open to some sort of alternative explanation which deals with the contradiction. For example, maybe the sounds we're hearing are supposed to be some other kind of waves that are being translated into sound-waves for the audience to hear.

Which brings us to the next point, concerning the means of dealing with those apparent contradictions. . . .

Quote from: Croaker;374518I'm not saying your players shoudn't make scientist-type characters. Just that if you say "yes, it's scientific and normal", they should not bring to you their flawed shadow physics and tell you "this ain't possible", but instead work within what you tell them about the world.

In other words your point is that comic book characters shouldn't see a super-strong character lifting a building, and say: "that shouldn't be possible!"

However, consider this fact. . . .

In the Fantastic Four, issue 249, Reed Richards (Mr Fantastic) sees the character Gladiator lift the Baxter Building and says: "That costumed man. . . he's uprooted the whole baxter building! But that's impossible! Even with the reinforced superstructure. . . the building should crumble under its own weight!"

Hopefully the fact that this kind of question could be asked in a comic is not too mind blowing, because asking that question led Mr Fantastic to an important realization: Gladiator's strength is at least partially based on mental powers (specifically a type of telekinesis which is applied to the building as a whole, rather than having all that lifting power focused at a specific tiny point, which would crumble the building).

This is totally relevant to the point at hand because it means that you don't have to say: "Comic Book Physics!" or say: "A Wizard did It!" every time somebody points out a contradiction in your world.

It is totally possible to come up with a good explanation of why Super-man can lift that building, instead of telling the players to stop asking questions.

Quote from: Croaker;374518Well, he was searching for Brand, which, being real, is rather easy to find in Shadow, unless he conceals himself into a rare and precious thing like the Blue Cave.

I know I didn't deal with every point you raised in your previous post. I was sort of hoping that we could focus on one thing at a time. And I thought the point about in-game contradictions was something we should get out of the way before dealing with the other matters, still. . . .

I guess I'll move on to the point above about Brand.

The problem is that your theory about finding Brand doesn't fit with what Random said in the books. It was not Brand which keyed the search, it was clearly the specific landscape Random was searching for.

From Sign of the Unicorn (where Brand contacts Random):

   I asked how I could locate him.

"Look very closely," he said. "Remember every feature. I may only be able to show you once. Come armed, too. . . ."

Note, Random doesn't just say "Oh well, given that Brand is real he should be rather easy to locate in Shadow." He apparently can't even hellride to Brand. He'd be helpless to act without an image of the world he wants to find.

I'm not saying that you couldn't re-imagine Amber so that it was easy to shadow-walk to something real (like an Amberite), but it apparently didn't work that way in the books.

Quote from: Croaker;374518The problem is see with this is that, aside from rendering Shadow utterly useless, you rob the player of some freedom: What if he wants to go naked bare-handed against an inferior player who wants to go all "army of angels" and death stars?

To some extent that is the same as the situation described in the chess game between Amberites. You don't actually get the freedom to choose your specific moves.

Still you could do things in other ways, depending on the effect you want.

For example, you could let the player describe things anyway they want, whether it makes sense or not. OK, so my character defeats the army of 1 million Death-stars, armed only with his tooth brush and aided only by his trusty pet gerbil.