A few questions

[jibbajibba]

And ultimately we know that superman, the starship Enterprise, Strombringer (and so on) are all items of shadow and not substance. So they may kick butt against other things of shadow, but they aren't "real" compared to Pattern or Logrus or whatever.

So that phaser can shoot through rock, but it can't punch a hole in a simple Pattern defensive shield.

Agreed but the problem isn't really at the extremes its with that dragon you want to ride back to Amber on. If it's a dragon can it breath fire? can it fly? is it as strong as Gerard? And if it is does it cost 30 points or 30 days to find or are all those things inherent properties of a dragon?

Now if you say yes a dragon that can travel back to Amber should be a points thing and it should cost x points which translates to x days of hellriding. But say x was 30 points (not unreasonable if you stat out a dragon in the ADRPG system). That doesn't fit with the books as finding a world of dragons shouldn't take 30 days.
But equally saying okay a world with dragons is fine , dragons are inherrent so are free however free dragons can't travel to Amber and keep their powers, doesn't feel right either as asking for 'meta' stuff like gunpowder that works in Amber or a dragon that works in Amber doesn't fit the books and why does a dragon from shadow loose its power when a horse from shadow is fine.

There is defnitely an issue here. I can see why Wujik used the mechanic he offers its simple and the 1 day per point makes alternative powers like logrus and conjuration more appealing but when you start to drill into it it does start to break . Maybe something for Quillion to fix in a new edition

[fizzbinn]

My understanding of the rules was that the time it takes to find something in Shadow isn't necessarily measured by the time it takes to find something in Shadow, but rather how long the searcher is absent from the rest of the players.  So, using the 1 pt. = 1 day measure, that's a month of time all the other PC's get to do stuff without interference or complications from the PC who wants a Dragon.  That approach certainly makes sense within the rest of the game design, and has a better correlation to the text.  (And yes, the weirder it is from an Amber perspective, the longer it should take to actually find as well.)

Clearly, using a 1pt=1day guideline shouldn't be linear, maybe exponential, because the artifact point costs can easily be abused.

Remember, Oberon was missing for about a year and a half before Nine Princes started, and the comment about his disappearance was "never for so long, and not without leaving instructions."  So he never took the time (in remembered history) to go off and find the flying sharks with laser beams that conceivably he could have brought back to Amber if he was willing to be away for fifty years or more.

[Evermasterx]

Agreed but the problem isn't really at the extremes its with that dragon you want to ride back to Amber on. If it's a dragon can it breath fire? can it fly? is it as strong as Gerard? And if it is does it cost 30 points or 30 days to find or are all those things inherent properties of a dragon?

Now if you say yes a dragon that can travel back to Amber should be a points thing and it should cost x points which translates to x days of hellriding. But say x was 30 points (not unreasonable if you stat out a dragon in the ADRPG system). That doesn't fit with the books as finding a world of dragons shouldn't take 30 days.
But equally saying okay a world with dragons is fine , dragons are inherrent so are free however free dragons can't travel to Amber and keep their powers, doesn't feel right either as asking for 'meta' stuff like gunpowder that works in Amber or a dragon that works in Amber doesn't fit the books and why does a dragon from shadow loose its power when a horse from shadow is fine.

There is defnitely an issue here. I can see why Wujik used the mechanic he offers its simple and the 1 day per point makes alternative powers like logrus and conjuration more appealing but when you start to drill into it it does start to break . Maybe something for Quillion to fix in a new edition

Why don't we try to build this dragon actually with the points?
Remember that the rules say that every quality/power that costs more than 4 points is NOT available to players.
Here is my take:
Immense Vitality - 4 points
Engine Speed - 4 points
Amber Stamina - 2 points
Combat Reflexes - 2 points
Resistant to Normal Weapons - 1 point
Double Damage - 2 points
no rules for fly or fire breath in the C&I section, but it's a fire dragon, so he can do it per default.
total: 15 points = 15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
So if you succeeded into befriend/dominate him (it's not granted) you've got your dragon, so powerful, and as much expensive...
It looks to me that in this case the rules are not that bad.

[jibbajibba]

Why don't we try to build this dragon actually with the points?
Remember that the rules say that every quality/power that costs more than 4 points is NOT available to players.
Here is my take:
Immense Vitality - 4 points
Engine Speed - 4 points
Amber Stamina - 2 points
Combat Reflexes - 2 points
Resistant to Normal Weapons - 1 point
Double Damage - 2 points
no rules for fly or fire breath in the C&I section, but it's a fire dragon, so he can do it per default.
total: 15 points = 15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
So if you succeeded into befriend/dominate him (it's not granted) you've got your dragon, so powerful, and as much expensive...
It looks to me that in this case the rules are not that bad.

Yeah looks about right you could add a bunch of other stuff but certainly in the ball park. The problem is when you compare the time to the time it takes stuff to do in the books. I totlaly beleive that in the books Corwin could have got to a Pern like shadow from Amber in far less than 2 weeks. I suspect once outside the limits of Arden he would have been there in a day and that isn't one dragon that is a horde (or maybe even shadow wide) of Dragon ( for a x3/4 multiplier = 6 - 8 weeks ) .

Now as I stated I wold make the PCs spend the time though through this thread I might well tweak the actual durations a little but i can understand why others think that spending 6 weeks to find a flight of dragons is a bit wrong.

Its certainly an area where the rules could be revised

[warp9]

Again I agree with you. finding a world of Dinosaurs should be easy and in all probability they should stay dinosaurs if you bring them to Amber. I agree there are holes but I am trying to work with the system and establish some ground rules. The only way I think you can do that is to charge points and therefore time for 'exceptional stuff' . Like I said before I am not very consistant and its a flaw. If a player said to be I will add a jet plume in the sky then I will add a jet and then I will add a shuttle and thicken the cloud and when it clears I want to see The Valiant (the bloody big skyship aircraft carrier out of Dr Who) I would let them. If they were looking for an army of Angels or velociraptors or black bolts i woul work out the time base don points and that is how long it would take.

I appreciate your candor in terms of the admission of inconsistency. It just seems like too big a disparity between sometimes finding big things very easily, and sometimes going by the points and taking forever.

I can imagine having a GM decide to go by the points, and have one PC take forever to find an iron golem out in shadow. And then later have a different PC easily find a D&D type shadow, where the character then uses his vast wealth (pretty much a given for Amberites) to buy an iron golem from some powerful wizard. That would not make any sense, and be unfair to the guy who spent forever looking for the iron golem.

I agree the tiems per points doen; seem very much like the books but ther ehas to be a time spend and some roleplay.

I'm not sure I follow this perspective. Sure, a small amount of time and attention during the game to do the hell-riding is great. But we are talking about larger amounts of time.

I'd like to take more time to focus on role-playing out the interesting things. Days upon days upon days of hell riding gets boring pretty fast.

[warp9]

It seems you didn't understood my point.

This is not a scientific treatise of the practical implications of 10% more electrical charge on bronze atoms. This is a game, based on a book.

So, maybe that, in reality, you can't have living horses if, say, you can't have laser bolts.
But, unless you play with biologists or chemists who also happen to be unable to leave work at home, this'll never be a point. I mean, can you tell me if this is possible/impossible with 100% accuracy?

Authors and game designers often don't bother much with real-world science, especially as it has been proven before to be wrong (flat earth^^). They aim for a feeling and a theme, with that whole "shadow laws" being mostly fluff to explain it. That's what you should seek, a theme, and stick your "scientific explanations" around it, be it medieval amber or superpowered amber.

There is naturally a question of how far you should go to explain things, most systems of explanation tend to break down if you keep asking why? why? why? why? why? to every answer.

But there is a difference between explanations which actually make a fair amount of sense, and techno-babble.

Throwing out scientific sounding explanations, which only make sense if you don't think about them, is in the realm of tech-babble.

IMO, if your players are accepting magic and trumps without a question, but bothering you about their guns not working when their horses do, they're probably trying to munchkinise their way out. And if they question everything as not possible? Why are they even playing?

Here the difference is between accepting the existence of unknown forces, powers (trumps and magic), vs dealing with things which seem to contradict what I know (guns are dependent on physical laws, where as horses are not).

There are definitely some other possible explanations for why horses work in Amber but guns do not, but there is some baggage which goes along with those explanations.

[warp9]

Well, maybe you're more the scientific than the writer, but the difference is rather clear to me, unless you begin to try to verbiose your way out like "I want to attack amber with archangels" :lol: in which case you're no longer dealing with what is possible to you, nor with shadow (unless you're attacking a Shadow Amber).
Sadly, I don't find words to explain it to you better

Maybe the reverse? The fact that everything exists in shadow doesn't mean you can do everything that you want.

Let's try a simple exemple:
- You want to fly, to lift tanks, to see through things... It is possible in shadow, you just have to find a shadow where local laws allow it, or give everyone telekinesis, whatever, because everything you want to do is possible somewhere. But, still for exemple, archangels don't exist in shadow, because everything doesn't exist.
- You want to find archangels in shadow. They exist (everything exists). But it is not possible for you to fly, because, well, you're just a human, and everything's not possible).

I'm sorry, I just can't explain it better.

Actually it sounds like you've given two example options.

One where everything is possible to a given character. And one where all things exist.

I always assumed that the passage was talking about the second option. But again, there is not really that much difference.

Looking at the first option:   You want to fly, to lift tanks, to see through things... It is possible in shadow, you just have to find a shadow where local laws allow it, or give everyone telekinesis, whatever, because everything you want to do is possible somewhere. But, still for exemple, archangels don't exist in shadow, because everything doesn't exist.
So I can do anything, in the right place, but archangels don't exist in shadow. I'll go to a place where I have cosmic genie powers, and create archangels.

Or, dealing with the second option:   You want to find archangels in shadow. They exist (everything exists). But it is not possible for you to fly, because, well, you're just a human, and everything's not possible).
OK, so everything exists (btw, this is how I read meaning of the passage in the book). Since everything exists, I'll find a magic potion, which gives anybody who drinks it the power of flight, and fly that way.

Either way though, I'll get my flight, and have my army of angels too.

[warp9]

As a GM, it has always been my philosophy that guns, phasers, light-sabers, Stormbringer, jedi-kinghts, kryptonians, and Green-Lantern-Rings, all fit into one category of very powerful creatures/items which do not cost points, yet do not work far outside their home shadows. Whereas items made with those special Amber DRPG qualities, like Merlin's Frakir, cost points and will be reliable pretty much anywhere.

However, I do not think that the above is an ideal solution.

Why?
If it poses you no problem with magic and dragons, why would it be more difficult with phasers and kryptonians?

Especially with kryptonians, in fact: We already know that, under different light wavelength (red sun), they lose their powers. It is so difficult to imagine that the superman's earth sunlight is very specific? Or that their powers also require other home-related conditions (like a specific mass for carbon atoms, add 1/1000000 of that and it doesn't work)?

I don't have any problem with kryptonicans losing their powers, but that is not what I was referring to when I said it was not an idea solution.

My problem is more with a T-rex, or an electric eel, losing their abilities.

My problem is also with the idea that Amberites can specifically search for things which are "universal." Other than with some very specific instances (like cars, or gun-powder), this issue really isn't dealt with very much in the books.

[warp9]

It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

In fact, in game terms, this comes down to a pretty simple question: can I get what I want in my character's private shadow? Or do I need to GM to go over every bit of it to make sure that it is stuff which can "exist in shadow" ?

For the Nth time: YES, because your shadow local laws are tailored to suit it, whatever it is. Go outside and, deprived of your shadow's support, somethings won't work.

I'd point out that the question was not actually addressed to you. And if somebody says, as weilide did that "certain things are simply not available in shadow" then it follows that those things would not be available in any shadow, even one's own personal shadows.

[warp9]

Why don't we try to build this dragon actually with the points?
Remember that the rules say that every quality/power that costs more than 4 points is NOT available to players.
Here is my take:
Immense Vitality - 4 points
Engine Speed - 4 points
Amber Stamina - 2 points
Combat Reflexes - 2 points
Resistant to Normal Weapons - 1 point
Double Damage - 2 points
no rules for fly or fire breath in the C&I section, but it's a fire dragon, so he can do it per default.
total: 15 points = 15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
So if you succeeded into befriend/dominate him (it's not granted) you've got your dragon, so powerful, and as much expensive...
It looks to me that in this case the rules are not that bad.

But did you actually follow the rules?

The rules say that the basic creature, and its abilities are free.

So if your basic creature is a fire dragon, then everything should be free.


But if your basic creature is not a fire dragon, then what is the base creature? Maybe we can be a bit un-specific about our base creature. . . .

Actually that reminds me of a line H.P. Lovecraft used to describe Byakhee:
   they were not altogether crows, nor moles, nor buzzards, nor ants, nor decomposed human beings, but something I cannot and must not recall.

That would be like an Amber creature where the player didn't know what to base it on.

[jibbajibba]

I appreciate your candor in terms of the admission of inconsistency. It just seems like too big a disparity between sometimes finding big things very easily, and sometimes going by the points and taking forever.

I can imagine having a GM decide to go by the points, and have one PC take forever to find an iron golem out in shadow. And then later have a different PC easily find a D&D type shadow, where the character then uses his vast wealth (pretty much a given for Amberites) to buy an iron golem from some powerful wizard. That would not make any sense, and be unfair to the guy who spent forever looking for the iron golem.



I'm not sure I follow this perspective. Sure, a small amount of time and attention during the game to do the hell-riding is great. But we are talking about larger amounts of time.

I'd like to take more time to focus on role-playing out the interesting things. Days upon days upon days of hell riding gets boring pretty fast.

I guess I am allowing a look behind the curtain here. To the players my ruling would appear consistent. In the case of a Golem I would get a cost say 8 points then base time on that (although as noted above i might well use a different method than that given to work out how long a hellride.
I agree a long hellride is dull.

[jibbajibba]

But did you actually follow the rules?

The rules say that the basic creature, and its abilities are free.

So if your basic creature is a fire dragon, then everything should be free.


But if your basic creature is not a fire dragon, then what is the base creature? Maybe we can be a bit un-specific about our base creature. . . .

Actually that reminds me of a line H.P. Lovecraft used to describe Byakhee:
   they were not altogether crows, nor moles, nor buzzards, nor ants, nor decomposed human beings, but something I cannot and must not recall.

That would be like an Amber creature where the player didn't know what to base it on.

This is where I came in earlier. The issue is what is for free and what governs the ability to traverse shadow.

If a base red dragon is free then all items are free. You want to find a doppleganger, free, a Hydra, free, an army of angels, free, superman , free.
Then you get does free stuff loose its power travelling through shadow? If yes then what powers? all of them? If I get a free red dragon (who might come to 15 points if stated) then I pay for an additional point of armour does that mean this one point creature is now real as opposed to a free dragon or are all dragons just as real as each other?

This is the inherent inconsistancy that I would try to counter with my case by case (possibly inconsistent) judgement.

Now I note that you throw up obstacles but you aren't really laying down many solutions. How you you cost that red dragon? An army of Angels?

Is there space here for us to produce a workable house rule we coudl all take a way and playtest?

If we did that mine would rely on judgement and look like ...

The inherent natural abilities of a creature are free. Natural abilities include -

• Intelligence
• Strength due to size - so a horse is as strong as a horse and a T-Rex is as strong as a 50 feet giant lizard, but superman's strength is not natural as it goes beyond the strength for a mansized creature
• Movement - as based on a natural thing, so a hawk can fly at engine speed becuase they can, a dragon can fly , a horse can gallop etc

Powers above these need to be paid for even where mythology tells us that they are inherent. So a basilisk's stony gaze needs to be priced (GM call on how much special attacks cost but a petrifying gaze ought to go for 4 points) as does a dragon's breath weapon, etc. This prevents a PC finding an army of black bolts for free becuase Black bolts powers are inherent to him.
Technology doe not work in Amber, so a robot will not function. Magic does work in amber but may need to be tweaked so a golem (effectively a robot powered by magic) can me made to work if a player with Sorcery works on it.
Time taken to locate creatures in shadow is exponenetial pbased on the point cost. A 1 point power takes 2 hours a 2 point power 4 hours a 4 point power 16 hours (the GM can modify the base value to temper the speed of shadow walking in their game a 2 hour base means power creatures will be fast to find a 4 hour base means they will be far slower.)
[/I]

Now that is a bit wooly and I haven't thought through all the exceptions or given examples but is that where we are heading ? or do you have a more radical proposal?

[warp9]

or do you have a more radical proposal?

Yes and no.

I don't have any proposal which is solves all the problems and is totally consistent with all the books. However, I have my doubts that the books themselves are totally consistent with all the books.


One option is to go with the following premise:    
All creatures and items are free.

A Prince of Amber is kind of like an iceberg, in that he has a shadow part of him (analogous to the part of the iceberg which is above water), and the greater part, (which is the real part that is like the part of the iceberg hidden below the water)

Princes of Amber, and Lords of Chaos, are real, but all their shadow toys are irrelevant, except as expressions of personal style (basically window dressing).

A shadow person only sees the shadow part of a Prince of Amber's body, not the Prince's true essence. And his description of a battle between two princes of Amber would mistakenly focus on the reflections/shadows of the battle, along with their shadow toys. But the shadow person would not see the real/actual conflict, which takes place on a deeper level of reality.

A prince's toys will often be reflections of his true nature. For example, Gerard might ride into a battle mounted on a HUGE war elephant, or commanding a HUGE star-ship. Even his shadow body is very large. But his true power doesn't come from these things, they are merely reflections of the principle of strength which is Gerard.

That is one option I've been considering. It is not all that consistent with the books. But it would solve a number of problems.

[jibbajibba]

Yes and no.

I don't have any proposal which is solves all the problems and is totally consistent with all the books. However, I have my doubts that the books themselves are totally consistent with all the books.


One option is to go with the following premise:    
All creatures and items are free.

A Prince of Amber is kind of like an iceberg, in that he has a shadow part of him (analogous to the part of the iceberg which is above water), and the greater part, (which is the real part that is like the part of the iceberg hidden below the water)

Princes of Amber, and Lords of Chaos, are real, but all their shadow toys are irrelevant, except as expressions of personal style (basically window dressing).

A shadow person only sees the shadow part of a Prince of Amber's body, not the Prince's true essence. And his description of a battle between two princes of Amber would mistakenly focus on the reflections/shadows of the battle, along with their shadow toys. But the shadow person would not see the real/actual conflict, which takes place on a deeper level of reality.

A prince's toys will often be reflections of his true nature. For example, Gerard might ride into a battle mounted on a HUGE war elephant, or commanding a HUGE star-ship. Even his shadow body is very large. But his true power doesn't come from these things, they are merely reflections of the principle of strength which is Gerard.

That is one option I've been considering. It is not all that consistent with the books. But it would solve a number of problems.

It's an interesting idea but I don't think it fits the setting. I think its a little too metaphysical.

If we translate your position into actual usable game rules You are saying that no matter what resources a PC can bring to bear the only important thing is his inner essence his true nature if you will? So I can go and find a magic sword but it doesn't have any features per se it is just a war of me deploying my Warfare in a combat. I can find a ring that can store many spells but it s not important as the ability to cast spells is inherent to me in any case?

I just don't see how that works in reality. Corwin gets an army of angels and attacks amber which is defended by Benedict on his own. Who wins? What if Benedict could train some local shopkeepers and arm them with pitchforks?
What is a PC wants an item that he doesn't have powers for. A ring with limited shadow walking capability for someone with no Pattern?

I can't really see how this idea works in an RPG. I can see how it might work in a board or card game where an Amberite has pools of resources of different aspects and deploys things that cost points from those pools, and those things have specific effects. But how do you work out how long it takes Bleys to find that elusive army of Black Bolts?

[warp9]

It's an interesting idea but I don't think it fits the setting. I think its a little too metaphysical.

Quite possibly.

If we translate your position into actual usable game rules You are saying that no matter what resources a PC can bring to bear the only important thing is his inner essence his true nature if you will? So I can go and find a magic sword but it doesn't have any features per se it is just a war of me deploying my Warfare in a combat.

Yes, that is basically what I'm suggesting.

I can find a ring that can store many spells but it s not important as the ability to cast spells is inherent to me in any case?

The spells themselves have to be taken in the proper context. I would tend to place both spells and sorcery in the realm of "window-dressing."

I just don't see how that works in reality. Corwin gets an army of angels and attacks amber which is defended by Benedict on his own. Who wins?

Going with this view of things, those shadow-beings have no real power, and can't have an impact on a real battle. Corwin might as well attack with an army of imaginary friends.

What is a PC wants an item that he doesn't have powers for. A ring with limited shadow walking capability for someone with no Pattern?

I would assume that such a game would almost require a that the PCs be "real" meaning they would all either be Princes of Amber, or Lords of Chaos.

I can't really see how this idea works in an RPG.

The best analogy I can think of to another RPG is the way character function in the virtual reality of the matrix in Shadowrun (at least in earlier editions of the game). The matrix persona and weapons the character carries are symbolic of deeper abilities. A character with a rating 6 attack program loaded up may be symbolized by an avatar with a sword, or a gun, or an axe. But that is only a reflection (or shadow) of the real power of the attack algorithm. An elaborate looking weapon is only window dressing, and no matter how impressive it looks, it actually means nothing.


In many ways, this set-up comes fairly close to what I'm describing for the Amber game.

But how do you work out how long it takes Bleys to find that elusive army of Black Bolts?

In the situation I'm suggesting, finding an army of Black Bolts is no harder than finding an army of purple chihuahuas.