A few questions

[jibbajibba]

I agree with you. The Amberites use swords instead of machineguns because the swords work everywhere (or nearly so). For the same reason they look for an oustanding and unique (or nearly so) exemplar of horse like Morgenstern (and pay points for it).

Maybe we could say that something evaluated zero points has many of its special features working only in the shadow of origin. For this reason I think is necessary to think about the features enough: why an angel fly? If you answer to this question maybe you can say in which shadows they will continue to fly.

Something evalutated at least one point works everywhere, but it must be build taking a normal item and adding the qualities/powers.

A bulldozer of shadow earth could not work in another place, because the fuel won't explode in that shadow. But if you take a shadow earth bulldozer and add at least Mobility (1 point) it will move everywhere (or nearly so). If you pay that point, no one will be able to manipulate the bulldozer to turn against you.

I think this is a little too gamist though. If I say I am goignt o hunt through shadows to find a horse like Morganstern then you do exactly that. From a charater perspective you don;t say but I want this horse to be real and be able to have those skill across shadow because usually natural abilities like the horses just work.

[Evermasterx]

I think this is a little too gamist though. If I say I am goignt o hunt through shadows to find a horse like Morganstern then you do exactly that. From a charater perspective you don;t say but I want this horse to be real and be able to have those skill across shadow because usually natural abilities like the horses just work.

Imagine Julian wants a horse like Morgenstern. He thinks that the horse has to be big, strong, fast and loyal, he wants a horse unique in his genre.
So he hellrides until he finds a shadow where the horses are pretty normal, but where a magnificent stallion roams the earth, wild and free.
"This is it!" - Julian said to himself after 21 weeks of search.
Now he has to befriend the beast, somehow (roleplaying opportunity), maybe living there for more weeks...
As you see, Julian did a lot of work to get this powerful ally, which will be part of him in the future.

But he could have simply hellridden to a shadow where all the horses are like that, and go back home with a horse with all that feature. Little work, little profit. Maybe the horse in Amber starts to decay after some week, because it was the atmosphere of its original place to make it strong. In every case a horse obtained in this way is not part of Julian, it's just like a dress.

So I think that the points, either if you spend them or simply use to calculate the time needed to find the item, they mean how important and reliable is that item. If then you actually spend the points, the item is not only important and reliable, but you are sure that nobody else could use it without your consensus.

This is how I see it, but surely your argumets are something to consider to not be too much gamist.

[jibbajibba]

Imagine Julian wants a horse like Morgenstern. He thinks that the horse has to be big, strong, fast and loyal, he wants a horse unique in his genre.
So he hellrides until he finds a shadow where the horses are pretty normal, but where a magnificent stallion roams the earth, wild and free.
"This is it!" - Julian said to himself after 21 weeks of search.
Now he has to befriend the beast, somehow (roleplaying opportunity), maybe living there for more weeks...
As you see, Julian did a lot of work to get this powerful ally, which will be part of him in the future.

But he could have simply hellridden to a shadow where all the horses are like that, and go back home with a horse with all that feature. Little work, little profit. Maybe the horse in Amber starts to decay after some week, because it was the atmosphere of its original place to make it strong. In every case a horse obtained in this way is not part of Julian, it's just like a dress.

So I think that the points, either if you spend them or simply use to calculate the time needed to find the item, they mean how important and reliable is that item. If then you actually spend the points, the item is not only important and reliable, but you are sure that nobody else could use it without your consensus.

This is how I see it, but surely your argumets are something to consider to not be too much gamist.

Well I was thinking we were tlaking about point here as in 'points to find' not as is items that are part of the legend stuff. The later I have no issue with .

But if Julian goes riding for a horse and finds a place where all the horses are like Morgenstern, then he has found a place where all horses are like morganstern. Whilst the game might have a justifciation for making this horse weaker, it was free and took no time to find, the world has no difference. In Amber terms the two horses are the same all that differes is the ammount of effort taken to locate them. That is where the problem lies for me. You are saying one is more real because you spent points/effort on it and not through any intrinsic property it posesses itself.

[Evermasterx]

Well I was thinking we were tlaking about point here as in 'points to find' not as is items that are part of the legend stuff. The later I have no issue with .

But if Julian goes riding for a horse and finds a place where all the horses are like Morgenstern, then he has found a place where all horses are like morganstern. Whilst the game might have a justifciation for making this horse weaker, it was free and took no time to find, the world has no difference. In Amber terms the two horses are the same all that differes is the ammount of effort taken to locate them. That is where the problem lies for me. You are saying one is more real because you spent points/effort on it and not through any intrinsic property it posesses itself.

Yes, I am saying that one is more real because Julian spent a lot of time and energy to have it. And in game terms this will translate in points.
I do not agree with you because, even in Amber terms, the presence of the blood of Amber makes a shadow more strong and real, and so it is for a creature: the attentions of a Prince of Amber make it more real.

I start from the theory that the shadows come to existance as an amberite starts to interact with them: the more he care, the more the shadow stuff becomes solid. Of course there can be other point of start and other point of view equally justified.

[jibbajibba]

Yes, I am saying that one is more real because Julian spent a lot of time and energy to have it. And in game terms this will translate in points.
I do not agree with you because, even in Amber terms, the presence of the blood of Amber makes a shadow more strong and real, and so it is for a creature: the attentions of a Prince of Amber make it more real.

I start from the theory that the shadows come to existance as an amberite starts to interact with them: the more he care, the more the shadow stuff becomes solid. Of course there can be other point of start and other point of view equally justified.

I just can't trranlate that into the novels.

Imagine a proto-scene from a future novel. Julian taking his son James to find a mount. They travel through shadow to a plain of red grass where a heard of Morgenstern type horses exist and James has to do some sort of test whereby he captures and breaks one.

That is a very Amberesque scene. Its the sort of thing players come up with in amber fiction and I am a Gm use for flashback threads. Now there would be no element of this horse if not real or is real it just is. Effectively if you find a horse liek that it is real from the off.
Now its my opinion that to find any horse like Morganstern you need to pay the points in terms of effort otherwise you find only mundane horses. This clarifies things for me.
Now if you wnet looking for beings that are beyond morgenstern being with more that a 4 in anything I think they will fade outside their shadows.

I have been thinking about this from the earleir post where I realised I have no consistentcy and have decided that henceforth if a creature has greater than 4 in anything it needs to be linked to a Real Power source, (pattern , logrus, abyss, ygg, something else) or it will be limited to a small range of shadows. This clarifies my position clearly I think.

You can find the 1000 point character who exceeds all amberites at everything but his scope is limited unless he is imbued with Power. It might be that this superman is still a 4 strenght, 4 combat, 4 endurance, 4 psyche guy once you pull him out of the shadow (so he becomes a 16 point creature ) but the excess he had in his own shadow are specific to that shadow.

This also ties into some of my own ideas round Conjuration and other stuff and i think fits the rules reasonably well.

So I woudl say ....

i) if you want to find an exotic creature you will need to pay points beyond the 'earth standard' for that sort of thing.
ii) You can find things that are as tough as you like if you pay the points
iii) When you move tough stuff out of its shadow if weakens if it does not have a link to a real power

I think that is reasonably consistent (if a little earth centric - although that is becuase earth is a reflection of Amber and not he other way round) and fits the novels and the spirit of the ADRPG rules.

[Evermasterx]

I just can't trranlate that into the novels.

Imagine a proto-scene from a future novel. Julian taking his son James to find a mount. They travel through shadow to a plain of red grass where a heard of Morgenstern type horses exist and James has to do some sort of test whereby he captures and breaks one.

That is a very Amberesque scene. Its the sort of thing players come up with in amber fiction and I am a Gm use for flashback threads. Now there would be no element of this horse if not real or is real it just is. Effectively if you find a horse liek that it is real from the off.
Now its my opinion that to find any horse like Morganstern you need to pay the points in terms of effort otherwise you find only mundane horses. This clarifies things for me.
Now if you wnet looking for beings that are beyond morgenstern being with more that a 4 in anything I think they will fade outside their shadows.

I have been thinking about this from the earleir post where I realised I have no consistentcy and have decided that henceforth if a creature has greater than 4 in anything it needs to be linked to a Real Power source, (pattern , logrus, abyss, ygg, something else) or it will be limited to a small range of shadows. This clarifies my position clearly I think.

You can find the 1000 point character who exceeds all amberites at everything but his scope is limited unless he is imbued with Power. It might be that this superman is still a 4 strenght, 4 combat, 4 endurance, 4 psyche guy once you pull him out of the shadow (so he becomes a 16 point creature ) but the excess he had in his own shadow are specific to that shadow.

This also ties into some of my own ideas round Conjuration and other stuff and i think fits the rules reasonably well.

So I woudl say ....

i) if you want to find an exotic creature you will need to pay points beyond the 'earth standard' for that sort of thing.
ii) You can find things that are as tough as you like if you pay the points
iii) When you move tough stuff out of its shadow if weakens if it does not have a link to a real power

I think that is reasonably consistent (if a little earth centric - although that is becuase earth is a reflection of Amber and not he other way round) and fits the novels and the spirit of the ADRPG rules.

I understand your position and find that is clear and reasonable.
I prefer instead an emotional approach to the topic, if we can say so.
Surely Conjuration (for me the part of the rules difficult to use without thinking a lot about it) is linked to what we are discussing.

[Croaker]

Let us say that you are the GM. And I am a player who comes to you with my character's 1 point personal shadow. In this Shadow, my character is the king/emperor/god, and there are all sorts of loyal creatures which have great powers and skills (or at least they have great powers in that Shadow). Do I get this personal Shadow for 1 point?

Yes.

I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Default is: They don't.

To have them keep their powers (or at least some of it) outside means they're important enough so that, in fact, you searched not a fantastic shadow, but an army of angels that can work in shadow. THAT is rare. So, you determine their point cost "everywhere", and use normal guidelines to know how much time it takes to find them.
Pretty simple, actually

Again, I basically agree with the above but a part of this line of questioning relates to the following statement :
 (my emphasis with the bold text)
(...)
Here we have the philosophy that Superman would cost major points AND his powers would only work in a very limited setting. That is something which I do not agree with.

I have no problem with the concept that Superman's powers cost no points and that those powers are also very restricted concerning where they work.

However, I think that, if something does cost points, it should work in a fairly wide range of areas. IMO that "only works in its local area" business is for stuff that costs no points.

Well, I mostly agree with you :lol:

To me, a shadow with superman will be difficult to find, because it'll be so different from the "default" shadow and Amber.
But if you find it? It's just a shadow, and costs 1 point.

Now, if you want a flying, superstrong human that works everywhere in shadow, that's gonna cost you a lot, if at all possible, and that'll be much, much more difficult to find.

In short:
- If it only works in a given shadow: Time depends on the difference from that shadow to Amber. Use the rulebook, this is searching for a Shadow of Desire, although some shadows (like hi-tech shadows, or very high magic shadows) will be more difficult to find than others (basic medieval/renaissance shadow), because of the aforementioned difference to the original (amber).
- If it works in a lot of shadows: Time depends on the creature's powers outside of its home shadow(s). Use the rulebook, this is searching for a creature/item in shadow. The base being Amber for what items/animals are normal, only worse (ie human rank instead of more)

Nothing exceptionnal, nothing that isn't covered by core ADRPG. At least, that's the way I view it.
Also, note that, unless you paid points for it, nothing ensures that it'll obey you, work as expected, or that it doesn't already obeys or belongs to someone else.

[warp9]

So I woudl say ....

i) if you want to find an exotic creature you will need to pay points beyond the 'earth standard' for that sort of thing.
ii) You can find things that are as tough as you like if you pay the points
iii) When you move tough stuff out of its shadow if weakens if it does not have a link to a real power

I think that is reasonably consistent (if a little earth centric - although that is becuase earth is a reflection of Amber and not he other way round) and fits the novels and the spirit of the ADRPG rules.

But that brings us back to the issue of finding a D&D like Shadow, with Ancient Dragons, Deities, and Demi-Gods, etc.

Many fantasy worlds have a lot of stuff which is "beyond Earth standard," yet such universes tend to be more similar to Amber than the world with where Brand was held captive (a place with a crazy sky, dead-bodies that float upward, and huge rocks that zip around in strange orbits).

Imagine that you stat out some of the things in the D&D world into the Creature and Artifact rules, some of those things would have very high point value. If you went out to find them using the 1 day of hell-riding per point of creature/artifact concept, it could take months to find the sort of world with those kind of "non-Earth standard" creatures in it.

[jibbajibba]

But that brings us back to the issue of finding a D&D like Shadow, with Ancient Dragons, Deities, and Demi-Gods, etc.

Many fantasy worlds have a lot of stuff which is "beyond Earth standard," yet such universes tend to be more similar to Amber than the world with where Brand was held captive (a place with a crazy sky, dead-bodies that float upward, and huge rocks that zip around in strange orbits).

Imagine that you stat out some of the things in the D&D world into the Creature and Artifact rules, some of those things would have very high point value. If you went out to find them using the 1 day of hell-riding per point of creature/artifact concept, it could take months to find the sort of world with those kind of "non-Earth standard" creatures in it.

Yes and no. First the shadow wherew Brand was held captive should be rare and hard to get to. It was out on the edge 'where the shadows go mad' and selected as a prison. If you look at the other locations from Lorraine,  to Avernus to Shadow Earth, Kashfa, etc etc they are all pretty normal. You don't see a lot of high fantasy or Space opera.
And again shadow walking to a D&D fantasy world is probably easier than finding a certain dragon. I know that isn't entirely conistent but I think that is what I would do.

Now the time to hellride to a place is perhaps something I would tinker with based on advanced pattern powers or even psyche (afterall it takes Corwin what 4 days to hellride from Amber to the point he draws his new pattern and he had time to make a few stops on the way) but part of what I would aim to do here is to use the game mechanic to promote the Amber we see in the books (This is different from my previous comment on players searching for permanent powered items as opposed to temporary powers as being gamist) . Just saying

[warp9]

Yes and no. First the shadow wherew Brand was held captive should be rare and hard to get to. It was out on the edge 'where the shadows go mad' and selected as a prison. If you look at the other locations from Lorraine,  to Avernus to Shadow Earth, Kashfa, etc etc they are all pretty normal. You don't see a lot of high fantasy or Space opera.

One of the reasons that I mentioned the place where Brand was held is specifically because it was "on the edge." But at the same time, it didn't take Random weeks of hell-riding to get there. By Random's account, it took less than a day to get to that highly exotic place.

Random says that he ate a big meal, packed his polarized glasses (to deal with the dazzlingly bright creature), jumped in his glider, and goes up in the air. First, he shifts to get rid of the city, so there is just swamp back at the river mouth where Texorami was before. Then he went over the land until it turned to desert, then "the sun shrank and strands of cloud whipped past its face, erasing it bit by bit." Pretty soon the sun is totally gone, and he is getting near to his goal: "No sun then but the light remained." Then he shifted shadow to pick up the drifting motion of the rocks, and was almost there.

That was pretty clearly a single ride out in the glider, rather than a long trip of many days or weeks. To make it even more clear that it was a single day, there is an observation he makes after losing 2 swords. Random states that it was clearly his day for losing swords. And he makes a remark wondering whether, if he'd checked his horoscope before setting out on the day's adventure, it would have indicated that he should watch out for losing his weapons.

This idea clearly conflicts with the concept that it takes weeks, or even months, of hell-riding to get to something extremely exotic.


You mention places like Lorraine, Amber, and Kashfa. Yes, those do seem pretty "Earth-normal," but I'd suggest that the nature of those places had  more to do with what the characters wanted to find than what was easy to find: there are also plenty examples of places they pass through which are pretty strange. . . .

For example, on the initial trip that Random and Corwin took from Shadow Earth to Amber, they went through places where the atmosphere and gravity were different, and even a place where all the people and buildings were transparent (Corwin mentions being able to see their internal organs, and the remains of their last meals). And it wasn't like Random's goal was to hell-ride as fast as possible to the most bizarre shadows he could find.

And we can see other examples of exotic features of various worlds which a apparently very close to the normal seeming ones.

When Corwin first meets Dara, he takes her on a little walk, and finds a huge waterfall with a titanic water wheel.  I don't know how big the wheel was, but it was pretty clear that it was absurdly HUGE. The wheel is one which he describes later in recounting the story in Sign of the Unicorn, as a wheel which was "fit for the granary of the gods." It seems strange that it would be so easy to find something like that, with a pleasant little walk, while, according to the process you advocate, it might take months of hard-core hell riding to find an absurdly HUGE ape like King Kong.

There is also the example of the walk that Merlin took with Julia. . . .
   
We followed it to a gallery, open to our left and looking out upon night and stars, stars, stars. . . . It was an enormous prospect, blazing with new constellations, their light sufficient to cast our shadows onto the wall behind us. She leaned over the low parapet, her skin some rare polished marble, and she looked downward.

They're down there too," she said. "And to both sides! There is nothing below but more stars, And to the sides. . . ."

That doesn't seem very "Earth-normal" to me, and again, that was just a short walk, not a hard-core hell-ride lasting for days.  

All these examples indicate that it isn't really that hard to find pretty bizarre things out in Shadow. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the longest trip through shadow I can think of is Corwin's trip from Amber to the Courts. And that trip was probably made much harder because Oberon was re-working the pattern, and all of shadow was going through drastic changes.

And again shadow walking to a D&D fantasy world is probably easier than finding a certain dragon. I know that isn't entirely conistent but I think that is what I would do.

I guess a part of that issue is exactly how much difference in time we are talking about.

Up to a point, I'd agree that it does take longer if you are being more specific. But so far, your arguments have been about the time it takes to find something being based on power and toughness, not specificity.

As I've indicated above, in the books, it just doesn't seem to take characters weeks of hell-riding to find things. Even very exotic places, like Brand's prison, can be found in a relatively short time.

And if you are going to say that it takes an afternoon of hell-riding to find a D&D clone shadow, yet it takes months of hell-riding to find an ancient red dragon, that sounds like a pretty big inconsistency to me.

That is especially true considering the basis for the argument that it takes weeks or months to find an ancient red dragon is because it is more exotic (powerful) than earth-standard, when there are things which are even more exotic/powerful than dragons in a D&D type fantasy world (like the gods, for example).

[jibbajibba]

I agree with every thign you say about moving to distant shadows note my comments in my second paragraph

"Now the time to hellride to a place is perhaps something I would tinker with based on advanced pattern powers or even psyche (afterall it takes Corwin what 4 days to hellride from Amber to the point he draws his new pattern and he had time to make a few stops on the way) but part of what I would aim to do here is to use the game mechanic to promote the Amber we see in the books (This is different from my previous comment on players searching for permanent powered items as opposed to temporary powers as being gamist) . Just saying"

So I agree that hellriding is too slow.
I also admit to my inconsistancies. I would allow a character to hellride to a D&D shadow quite quickly a day or two out of Amber maybe. But if they wanted to find a red dragon that would obey their will and they could ride about I would impose the points. Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'. So I woudl impose a restriction on the top end stuff as I outlined and make the point cost restrict the excesses.

In theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

if I am playing Amber I want it to feel like the novels. I can apply some logic to reinforce that based on the rules but I can be flexible if using those same rules limits the game from feeling like the novels. If you see what I mean. But I accept its inconsistant.

[warp9]

I agree with every thign you say about moving to distant shadows note my comments in my second paragraph

"Now the time to hellride to a place is perhaps something I would tinker with based on advanced pattern powers or even psyche (afterall it takes Corwin what 4 days to hellride from Amber to the point he draws his new pattern and he had time to make a few stops on the way) but part of what I would aim to do here is to use the game mechanic to promote the Amber we see in the books (This is different from my previous comment on players searching for permanent powered items as opposed to temporary powers as being gamist) . Just saying"

So I agree that hellriding is too slow.

Fair enough.

I also admit to my inconsistancies. I would allow a character to hellride to a D&D shadow quite quickly a day or two out of Amber maybe. But if they wanted to find a red dragon that would obey their will and they could ride about I would impose the points.

I would think that most Amberites could find some way to dominate many types of creatures whether they were naturally inclined to cooperate, or not.

An ancient red dragon might be fairly crafty, and present a bit more of a problem, but there are lots of big dumb powerful creatures that just ripe for psychic domination.  So, in many cases, finding a creature, and finding a creature that can be made to obey, is not all that much different

Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'.

That seems like it might be a misunderstanding of my argument. I'm not suggesting that there are two versions of most things. The way I tend to see it is that most powerful creatures/objects are in the same class as nukes. There is one version of a nuke, and one version of a kryptonian. And you'll never get either a nuke or a kryptonian to function in Amber.

Regarding the creature/artifact rules in the book: I see the "special enhancements" listed in the book as a very limited (note: meaning very limited as compared to all the infinite possibilities of shadow items/creatures) class of qualities and powers that can be applied universally.

I would even compare it to the difference between the magic practiced by various types of local magicians (D&D wizards, for example), vs magic like sorcery or power words listed in the Amber book.

How much to be a 20th level D&D Wizard? 0 points. But that is a different thing from having the Sorcery, Conjuration, and/or Power Words, listed in the Amber DRPG book.

That is where IMO the difference between finding a creature as strong or stronger than Gerard, vs the special enhancement "Exalted Vitality" comes in. Any Amberite can find a big strong creature out in shadow, a creature which is stronger than Gerard. But the special enhancement "Exalted Vitality" is off limits to the PCs.

So I woudl impose a restriction on the top end stuff as I outlined and make the point cost restrict the excesses.

In theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

One of my general issues with this whole point about bringing exotic/powerful creatures to Amber is that it is never really discussed in the books. We know that Amberies can find bazookas or bulldozers very easily. We know that despite the powerful qualities these items have, they will not function in Amber.

But here is the thing, living creatures are essentially extremely complex biological machines, and if the chemical laws are different enough in Amber that gunpowder doesn't function, why are people and animals able to do so well? If electricity doesn't work in Amber, then how do the impulses get carried along the nerves?

Do living things simply adapt, and change, so that they can keep functioning in Amber? If so, could other, more bizarre lifeforms also adapt to Amber?

Could Marvel Inhumans, like Black Bolt, exist and be fully functional in Amber?

If it is possible to bring exotic and powerful creatures to Amber, why hasn't it already been done? You'd think that Oberon would long since have brought in some of the most powerful creatures imaginable as Amber guardians.

If there are specific limits on what creatures can come to Amber, then what are those limits?

if I am playing Amber I want it to feel like the novels. I can apply some logic to reinforce that based on the rules but I can be flexible if using those same rules limits the game from feeling like the novels. If you see what I mean. But I accept its inconsistant.

One of the problems here is that the novels are a bit inconsistent.

We see very little magic in the original series, people did their fighting in a fairly mundane fashion; even Brand uses a crossbow for his attacks.

In the Merlin series, things are quite a bit different. Especially if you get to situations like the battle between Spikard enhanced Merlin and Living-Trump Jurt. They throw force bolts at each other, Jurt creates a vacuum around Merlin, all sorts of wild stuff, and very different from the feel of the Corwin series.  

All that being said, I'm not totally happy with my own explanation of the workings of artifacts and creatures. But I think that there are some other ways to deal with these problems, if one is willing to make some deeper assumptions about how things "really work in Amber."

[Croaker]

Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'. So I woudl impose a restriction on the top end stuff as I outlined and make the point cost restrict the excesses.

Hum... I'd say you could find 2 types of dragons, basically:
- Normal shadow dragons, that depends a lot of local shadow laws, and will lose their powers / wither and die if they change shadows. Note that this can be escaped somewhat by changing appearance: A shadow that might not support a dragon might support a human.
- Dragons real enough to have power out there, just like if they had been brought by points. They are rare, not because they're powerful (there are a lot of powerful things out there), but because they're real enough, at least to some degree. Thus, finding a shadow god might be easier than finding an army of Chaos-level shadowlings.

Anyway, most things might just not work in Amber, like gunpowder (Ok, corwin found some, but it was unprecedented, and they all had searched for ages before) or superpowers/shadow magic/shadow science.

[Klaus]

Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'.

That's exactly what I'd do, and it seems entirely consistent with the novels. What I don't understand is why you seem to think that there is only one kind of red dragon in the universe. There are an infinite number of shadows with infinite variations of red dragons. Of course there are differences.

A dragon whose powers work further outside it's own shadow is going to be rarer, however, and therefore take more time to find. Hellriding 'the journey' doesn't somehow modify the same dragon that you would find if you rode to an ordinary D&D shadow, it takes you to an entirely different dragon. It's only natural that different journeys lead to different destinations.

Hellriding to an item of desires isn't simply a matter of distance. Remember, Corwin passed Yig in about 3 days of hellriding, yet finding even a 4 point sword would take 4 days but you'd still probably be on the near side of Yig. If it was a matter of distance, an 8 or 12 point item would put you past the Abyss.

In my games, hellriding to an item isn't primarily about distance, it's about searching for a sufficiently Real version of the item, needle-in-a-haystack style. Real things are, by definition, rarer than their shadow counterparts and therefore harder to find.



 

In theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

Under my interpretation of the rules this is impossible, so I see no inconsistency between the rules and the tone of the books. The Black Bolt's powers don't work in Amber so a shadow full of him is useless.

[Croaker]

Exactly!