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Author Topic: A few questions  (Read 9589 times)

jibbajibba

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A few questions
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2010, 11:48:53 AM »
Quote from: warp9;366037
If points represent how rare and exotic stuff is. . . . How many points would it cost to find a typical D&D type world? (If you actually stated it out that would be a lot of exotic stuff: angles, and demons, and dragons, and djinni, and gods, and magic items of all sorts)


Tricky one. I probably wouldn't do shadows in that way I would use somethgin akin to my Shadow profiler. of course my model is that if you find a shadow the GM controls all teh stuff in that shadow to alter stuff there you need to manipulate it or move to adjacent shadows were things are different.  And angel speaking you would be better off finding a shadow of heaven than trying to find and anglic horde in a D&D world (which is where thye found that army of Angles ...obviously :) )
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Croaker

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A few questions
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 12:08:58 PM »
Quote from: warp9;366037
If points represent how rare and exotic stuff is. . . . How many points would it cost to find a typical D&D type world? (If you actually stated it out that would be a lot of exotic stuff: angles, and demons, and dragons, and djinni, and gods, and magic items of all sorts)
It'd take time, but not nescessarily much, as these are not cross shadow and not tha different from Amber.

How to put it?

Say, there's this universe where angels have supernatural hearing, because of some shadow law. Outside from it? They lose this, and have just "normal" hearing. This is the "reality" of your angel, and is what matters most. Rules-wise, he's just a normal human that benefits from local shadow rules granting it awesome powers.
If your angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow, then they're more real, and thus a lot more rare.
Likewise, taken out of his earth, Superman is just a normal human, just like when exposed to kryptonite. So a DC Comics earth is difficult to find (because it's very different from Amber), but not impossible

Things work the same for magical and technological items.

A D&D shadow were everything was real enough to be taken out there and work everywhere would "cost" a lot of points in C&A and items, shadow-wide, and be also a lot more rare than a normal D&D shadow
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 12:12:27 PM by Croaker »
 

warp9

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A few questions
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 01:14:57 PM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;366053
Tricky one. I probably wouldn't do shadows in that way I would use somethgin akin to my Shadow profiler. of course my model is that if you find a shadow the GM controls all teh stuff in that shadow to alter stuff there you need to manipulate it or move to adjacent shadows were things are different.  And angel speaking you would be better off finding a shadow of heaven than trying to find and anglic horde in a D&D world (which is where thye found that army of Angles ...obviously :) )

added on edit: I apologize if I come off as too intense with the persistent questions, but the Amber DRPG item rules have always been of interest to me. . . .

Let me ask my question another way. . . .

Let us say that you are the GM. And I am a player who comes to you with my character's 1 point personal shadow. In this Shadow, my character is the king/emperor/god, and there are all sorts of loyal creatures which have great powers and skills (or at least they have great powers in that Shadow). Do I get this personal Shadow for 1 point?




Quote from: Croaker;366063
It'd take time, but not nescessarily much, as these are not cross shadow and not tha different from Amber.

How to put it?

Say, there's this universe where angels have supernatural hearing, because of some shadow law. Outside from it? They lose this, and have just "normal" hearing. This is the "reality" of your angel, and is what matters most. Rules-wise, he's just a normal human that benefits from local shadow rules granting it awesome powers.
If your angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow, then they're more real, and thus a lot more rare.
I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."





Quote from: Croaker;366063
Likewise, taken out of his earth, Superman is just a normal human, just like when exposed to kryptonite. So a DC Comics earth is difficult to find (because it's very different from Amber), but not impossible

Things work the same for magical and technological items.

A D&D shadow were everything was real enough to be taken out there and work everywhere would "cost" a lot of points in C&A and items, shadow-wide, and be also a lot more rare than a normal D&D shadow

Again, I basically agree with the above but a part of this line of questioning relates to the following statement :
Quote from: jibbajibba;352911
There will be things that are much tougher than Amberites but they will be limited to a shadow or range of shadows. I generally say that the more 'points' a thing costs (ie the tougher it is) the more limited the shadows it can work in. Now the game uses a points system that doubles for each rank. so a thing with human strength might be 1 point, Chaos rank is 2, amber 4. To get as good as corwin at Strength might be 8 points to be as good as Gerard, the epitome of Strength might be as many as 32 points. to get something with 10,000 points of strength would probably come in at 256 points or something daft like that that would be for each stat so .... maybe a 1024 point creature to max out all the stats. Now this would 1024 days to shadow walk to on top of all that as I said the chances are that this creature would only have these stats in a very very narrow range of shadows.
(my emphasis with the bold text)

Here we have the philosophy that Superman would cost major points AND his powers would only work in a very limited setting. That is something which I do not agree with.


I have no problem with the concept that Superman's powers cost no points and that those powers are also very restricted concerning where they work.

However, I think that, if something does cost points, it should work in a fairly wide range of areas. IMO that "only works in its local area" business is for stuff that costs no points.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 01:29:24 PM by warp9 »

jibbajibba

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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2010, 04:43:39 PM »
Quote from: warp9;366082
added on edit: I apologize if I come off as too intense with the persistent questions, but the Amber DRPG item rules have always been of interest to me. . . .

Let me ask my question another way. . . .

Let us say that you are the GM. And I am a player who comes to you with my character's 1 point personal shadow. In this Shadow, my character is the king/emperor/god, and there are all sorts of loyal creatures which have great powers and skills (or at least they have great powers in that Shadow). Do I get this personal Shadow for 1 point?

I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Again, I basically agree with the above but a part of this line of questioning relates to the following statement :
 (my emphasis with the bold text)

Here we have the philosophy that Superman would cost major points AND his powers would only work in a very limited setting. That is something which I do not agree with.


I have no problem with the concept that Superman's powers cost no points and that those powers are also very restricted concerning where they work.

However, I think that, if something does cost points, it should work in a fairly wide range of areas. IMO that "only works in its local area" business is for stuff that costs no points.


Yes you can have the shadow for 1 point but the creatures powers will be limited in shadow range.

The points stuff round the uber being stuff was about looking for the item in shadow not for buying with points. If you bought superman with points then his powers work cross shadow. If you search for a superman being I would generally limit his powers to a range of shadows. But I guess that isn't very consistent I suppose I will have a think about it
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warp9

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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2010, 07:25:23 PM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;366169
The points stuff round the uber being stuff was about looking for the item in shadow not for buying with points.
I did understand that you were simply assigning the points for purposes of finding such objects.

My problem is with assigning huge amounts of points to powerful objects, and then stating that it would take a character weeks, months, or even years, of hell-riding to find them. It states in ShadowKnight that a bulldozer could easily be stronger than Gerard. My problem comes with rating the bulldozer as having the 16 point "exalted vitality" and deciding that it should take a character 16 days of hell-riding to find such an item.

I'd say that a bulldozer is pretty easy to find, and that its strength is just a natural part of that object, and thus comes free. I'd tend to say the same thing about many of the other powerful objects you can find in Shadow.

Can an Amber PC find a nuke? Yes, IMO fairly easily. How many points is a nuke: I'd say "zero." The Amber artifact system doesn't cover that sort of object, so it wouldn't really cost points, it's just that you'd never get your nuke to work in Amber.

As I said above, my problem is with the idea of assigning some HUGE number of points to something like a nuke (or a Kryptonian, or a god), and stating that it would take a character years of hell-riding to find such an object.

Or even worse, to state that: "exalted vitality" is off limits to PCs, and thus it is impossible for a PC to find a bulldozer out in Shadow (from my view point, that would be a bizarre conclusion to reach. But if you insisted on rating all objects by the point system in the book, and also followed what the book said about PCs not having access to "exalted vitality" then you might end up at that conclusion).

IMO the Artifact creation rules are for things like Merlin's item, frakir. Meaning items you actually intend on taking to various places, including Amber. I'd don't believe that the item creation rules in the book were intended to cover the special abilities of bazookas, or kryptonians, or demi-gods.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 07:30:39 PM by warp9 »

jibbajibba

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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2010, 03:41:30 AM »
Quote from: warp9;366196
I did understand that you were simply assigning the points for purposes of finding such objects.

My problem is with assigning huge amounts of points to powerful objects, and then stating that it would take a character weeks, months, or even years, of hell-riding to find them. It states in ShadowKnight that a bulldozer could easily be stronger than Gerard. My problem comes with rating the bulldozer as having the 16 point "exalted vitality" and deciding that it should take a character 16 days of hell-riding to find such an item.

I'd say that a bulldozer is pretty easy to find, and that its strength is just a natural part of that object, and thus comes free. I'd tend to say the same thing about many of the other powerful objects you can find in Shadow.

Can an Amber PC find a nuke? Yes, IMO fairly easily. How many points is a nuke: I'd say "zero." The Amber artifact system doesn't cover that sort of object, so it wouldn't really cost points, it's just that you'd never get your nuke to work in Amber.

As I said above, my problem is with the idea of assigning some HUGE number of points to something like a nuke (or a Kryptonian, or a god), and stating that it would take a character years of hell-riding to find such an object.

Or even worse, to state that: "exalted vitality" is off limits to PCs, and thus it is impossible for a PC to find a bulldozer out in Shadow (from my view point, that would be a bizarre conclusion to reach. But if you insisted on rating all objects by the point system in the book, and also followed what the book said about PCs not having access to "exalted vitality" then you might end up at that conclusion).

IMO the Artifact creation rules are for things like Merlin's item, frakir. Meaning items you actually intend on taking to various places, including Amber. I'd don't believe that the item creation rules in the book were intended to cover the special abilities of bazookas, or kryptonians, or demi-gods.


there is certainly a logic to that and if the playered wanted to go to a space shadow they could find an exoskeleton or whatever. MY issue I guess is with the flavour of the books. Basically if I don;t think its got good flavour then it will be expensive (GM Fiat at work) :)
But I do totlaly take your arguement that a superman is just a bulldozer in a red cape.
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Evermasterx

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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2010, 08:14:03 AM »
Indeed an interesting debate.
 Let's quote the rules as a starting point:
 Step One - Start with a normal item
 and
 The basic artifact or creature is free, no matter how weird or exotic.
 

 I would use these guidelines, as as start point for a discussion (feel free absolutely to criticize, I am proposing this exactly for this purpose):
 
  • obtaining an item or a creature it    is not as going to the shop and buy what you need. It's a great    role-playing opportunity, possibly with danger and difficulties if    the item is really important.
  • a PC can reach only what he knows    or can imagine.
  • the more a PC has to imagine, the    more the GM will use this vagueness against the PC because, you    know, things aren't exactly as you imagine...
  • an item or a creature that belong    to a known class, costs zero points: it's a normal    item and it's free.
  • An item or a creature that are a    special variation of their class may cost points as in the C&I    table. These points represent the time needed to find them.
  • A zero point item or creature will    take only the minimum time requested for the type of approach used    to find them (pattern, logrus, ecc.)
So if I were the GM, I would do this way:
 1) so you want a bulldozer?
 For me a bulldozer costs zero points. It will costs points only if it has some special feature, like "a bulldozer able to speak" so you can command it to start or stop the engine vocally.
 If your PC knows what a bulldozer is, this means he knows where to find a shadow where there are bulldozers. So the time to find one is the time to reach that shadow and locate a bulldozer somewhere. The key is that you can have what you can imagine, or what you know already. So if you don't know what a bulldozer is, but someone told you about it or you have seen it in a picture, you will find only what you have imagined and it's probable that it is the wrong thing in some aspect...
 2) so you want to find an army of angels?
 Angels are a class of beings. Again, does your PC knows angels? Has he seen an angel before? What powers have these angels? What are their limits? Who they serve and why? For the bulldozer we didn't need these information, because we all know (approximately!) how it works.  Once you find them, why these powerful beings should come with you to fight? The PC must present arguments because this has to happen, possibly via role-playing.
 If we have defined what a normal angel is, it costs zero point for me. Only if you take a normal angel and make him special you have to spend the points.
 3) so you want to find Superman?
 He is not a class, he is a person. Does your PC knows him? Does he only imagine him, perhaps reading some comic? So, define his powers and points. If I remember well, only under a yellow sun superman has his powers, but under a red sun... Maybe he's not that great resource in the end... And may be that he will kill you under his sun because he is stronger than you. This suggest me that the stronger the creature, the harder is to control it, and the more powerful the item, the more probable someone else is trying to get it.
 

 And of course you have to spend the point only to make that special item as your somehow.
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warp9

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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2010, 09:32:35 AM »
Quote from: Evermasterx;366281
  • the more a PC has to imagine, the    more the GM will use this vagueness against the PC because, you    know, things aren't exactly as you imagine...
In terms of "vagueness," you can actually get pretty specific, including things like drawing up blueprints, or painting pictures of  your target (I used to have a set of blue-prints for the TOS Enterprise). Then it just becomes a question of honing in on the target.

And there is a difference between having details that you never thought about, and having features that actually contradict what you imagined.

Also, in game terms, vagueness of spoken description can lead to a difference between what somebody visualized, and what the GM understood that they were after. This vagueness is more of an issue of communication. And, while it highlights how important it is to be clear about what you want when talking to the GM, but I think that the PC deserves some benefit of the doubt in those situations, because it is about what they were actually visualizing.


Quote from: Evermasterx;366281
For me a bulldozer costs zero points. It will costs points only if it has some special feature, like "a bulldozer able to speak" so you can command it to start or stop the engine vocally.
Bulldozers on Shadow Earth don't speak, and there aren't bulldozers in Amber, but assuming that my character has been out in Shadow, who is to say that he doesn't already have a great deal of personal experience about many, many, strange things?

The book makes it pretty clear that my character can be pretty much assumed to have whatever skills I want him to have, why can't that include a great deal of personal knowledge of all sorts of strange Shadows?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 10:01:19 AM by warp9 »

Evermasterx

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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2010, 10:09:23 AM »
Quote from: warp9;366293
In terms of "vagueness," you can actually get pretty specific, including things like drawing up blueprints, or painting pictures of  your target (I used to have a set of blue-prints for the TOS Enterprise). Then it just becomes a question of honing in on the target.
This means that you have to sit down and think about the item a lot. You are nearly designing it. It takes time. It's ok for me and define a lot what you are looking for in the shadows.

Quote from: warp9;366293
And there is a difference between having details that you never thought about, and actually having features that actually contradict what you imagined.
Absolutely. I don't want to create diffulties for the PC to be evil, but because the player should have obstacles to overcome to really enjoy the game, particularly in ADRPG. It is my opinion of course.

Quote from: warp9;366293
Also, in game terms, vagueness of spoken description can lead to a difference between what somebody visualized, and what the GM understood that they were after. This vagueness is more of an issue of communication. And, while it highlights how important it is to be clear about what you want when talking to the GM, but I think that the PC deserves some benefit of the doubt in those situations, because it is about what they were actually visualizing.
Yes, if the PC has good stuff, no if he has bad stuff.

Quote from: warp9;366293
Bulldozers on Shadow Earth don't speak, and there aren't bulldozers in Amber, but assuming that my character has been out in Shadow, who is to say that he doesn't already have a great deal of personal experience about many, many, strange things?
Sure. If he knows a shadow where bulldozers can speak, he can go there and pick up one.

Quote from: warp9;366293
The book makes it pretty clear that my character can be pretty much assumed to have whatever skills I want him to have, why can't that include a great deal of personal knowledge of all sorts of strange Shadows?
I don't see such a knowledge as a skill. The PC must be more specific about his past, and can't just say "Oh I know that, because I know all sort of strange things": this doesn't seems fair to me.
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warp9

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« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2010, 10:47:38 AM »
Starting with the last part of the quote first. . . .

Quote from: Evermasterx;366298

I don't see such a knowledge as a skill. The PC must be more specific about his past, and can't just say "Oh I know that, because I know all sort of strange things": this doesn't seems fair to me.

I believe that background knowledge can be a skill.

However I can agree with your general point about requesting that the PC have a fairly specific past documented. IMO it is a good idea for the PCs to give quite a bit of detail concerning their backgrounds. Although, if the characters are hundreds of years old, that might require a lot of work to get too specific.



Quote from: Evermasterx;366298

Sure. If he knows a shadow where bulldozers can speak, he can go there and pick up one.

Any sort of ultra-high tech universe with speech recognition, and artificial intelligence should have lots of machines which can talk to you, including bulldozers. I don't think it is a big stretch to assume that most Amber PCs will have been to a few ultra-high tech universes.

Or, to take it in a different direction. Many D&D type universes have some sort of talking constructs, some large version of one of those might also do the trick, especially with a few minutes of "fine-tuning." The Juggernaut construct in the D&D monster listings looks kind of like a bulldozer to me. ;)



Quote from: Evermasterx;366298

This means that you have to sit down and think about the item a lot. You are nearly designing it. It takes time. It's ok for me and define a lot what you are looking for in the shadows.

I try to push for that as GM, and I do a lot of detail work as a player, so I can agree with the above statement.


Quote from: Evermasterx;366298

Absolutely. I don't want to create diffulties for the PC to be evil, but because the player should have obstacles to overcome to really enjoy the game, particularly in ADRPG. It is my opinion of course.

I think that is an important point. Some GMs do try to twist things around just to make problems.

And I've even known some GMs who tried to use vagueness against me, and then, when I got very super-specific, complained that they didn't have time to read all my over obsessive documentation.



Quote from: Evermasterx;366298

Quote
Also, in game terms, vagueness of spoken description can lead to a difference between what somebody visualized, and what the GM understood that they were after. This vagueness is more of an issue of communication. And, while it highlights how important it is to be clear about what you want when talking to the GM, but I think that the PC deserves some benefit of the doubt in those situations, because it is about what they were actually visualizing.

Yes, if the PC has good stuff, no if he has bad stuff.

My problem with the above is that it isn't a matter of "luck" but is instead a matter of communication. However, if my character has a lot of bad stuff, I would probably try to be extra-careful, and detailed about exactly what I wanted.

Evermasterx

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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2010, 11:29:58 AM »
I am glad that we reached some common view.

Some more considerations:
1) as a GM in ADRPG I don't like too much the idea of high technology shadows, and think that are difficult to reach just because you have to imagine their features, so the PC has to be Verne, or Wells, or in general a Sci-Fi writer to imagine something like that, so good to make it real. My players for now never have express the desire to visit such a shadow, but if they will try, I won't stop them, because Amber is a game of possibilities and I have to try to see it as an opportunity for fun, instead than a difficulty.
2) you talk about D&D, but I don't have direct experience in that game. I've only heard that some GM take for them the role of PC killers. I don't know if it is right or wrong for that specifical game. For ADRPG it is wrong for sure. Before Amber, I've been mastering Rolemaster, then a custom game and then Everway.
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The souls of dusk rising from the ashes
So the book of shadows tell
The weak will always obey the master"

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warp9

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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2010, 11:46:21 AM »
Quote from: Evermasterx;366316

I am glad that we reached some common view.

That is always good. :)

Quote from: Evermasterx;366316

Some more considerations:
1) as a GM in ADRPG I don't like too much the idea of high technology shadows, and think that are difficult to reach just because you have to imagine their features, so the PC has to be Verne, or Wells, or in general a Sci-Fi writer to imagine something like that, so good to make it real.

You don't have to be a sci-fi writer; you only have to be a sci-fi reader. ;)


Quote from: Evermasterx;366316

2) you talk about D&D, but I don't have direct experience in that game.

I just mentioned it as a example of a fantasy world that I figured a lot of people would have experience with.

However, I personally am not all that big a fan of the game, and IMHO, you're not missing that much.

jibbajibba

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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2010, 07:25:02 PM »
I use a skill system to resolcve the backgrounbd knowledge and it also fills in gaps for the PC history without making them all write a 4 page life history.

My problem with the 'base creature is free' argument is that in an infinite universe there must be shadows where all things are mundane so a world where Invulnerable armour grows on trees or where Enchanted swords grow out of the ground. Becuase of that I line. Its my opinion that the spirit of the rules is that the base creature is free really means if you want a horse you don't need to buy it movement and improved stamina and strength cos its a mundane creature. It shouldn't mean that I can find a shadow where all the Horses are like Morgenstern engine speed, bullet-proof etc. and so they are all free because in that world its a normal thing. I mean a logically a horse like that probably does come from a place where there are horses like that.... so ...

If you are saying an Angel should be free or Superman should be free what you are actually saying is that all items should be free as in an infinite universe there is some place where they are common and mundane.
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warp9

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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2010, 08:56:09 PM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;366440
I use a skill system to resolcve the backgrounbd knowledge and it also fills in gaps for the PC history without making them all write a 4 page life history.

My problem with the 'base creature is free' argument is that in an infinite universe there must be shadows where all things are mundane so a world where Invulnerable armour grows on trees or where Enchanted swords grow out of the ground. Becuase of that I line. Its my opinion that the spirit of the rules is that the base creature is free really means if you want a horse you don't need to buy it movement and improved stamina and strength cos its a mundane creature. It shouldn't mean that I can find a shadow where all the Horses are like Morgenstern engine speed, bullet-proof etc. and so they are all free because in that world its a normal thing. I mean a logically a horse like that probably does come from a place where there are horses like that.... so ...

If you are saying an Angel should be free or Superman should be free what you are actually saying is that all items should be free as in an infinite universe there is some place where they are common and mundane.

Yes, I am suggesting that you could have a Horse like Morgenstern, for free; but there is a catch.

The catch is that this horse probably wouldn't have its special qualities if you took it outside its home Shadow. On the other hand, the high point Morgenstern would keep his abilities in most places (that high point Morgenstern could be built by actually paying points, or by hell-riding for about 3 weeks).. If you paid your own points, it would probably be a bit more reliable, which might come in handy if you wanted to take the creature to some extremely bizarre places, like the underside of Shadow. And you'd be sure that there were no unwanted outside influences (so you'd know that you wouldn't actually be getting a "Trojan Horse" ;) ).

Of course, that raises the question: how does my character actually know the difference between the free Morgenstern, and the 21 point Morgenstern? It might make it easier if we were looking at a high-tech mechanical horse that did what Morgenstern could do, but that doesn't have to be the case. So I don't have a good answer for that question.

All I can say is this: if you want it to work in Amber, pay points for it, or spend days/weeks looking for it. But you'll never get your Kryptonian to function in Amber, so points are irrelevant in a case like that, and anything else which is pretty much limited to a particular Shadow is free.

added on edit: this is all my own personal opinion of course, but that is how I'd do things.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 09:00:35 PM by warp9 »

Evermasterx

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A few questions
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2010, 06:07:37 AM »
Quote from: warp9;366458
Yes, I am suggesting that you could have a Horse like Morgenstern, for free; but there is a catch.

The catch is that this horse probably wouldn't have its special qualities if you took it outside its home Shadow. On the other hand, the high point Morgenstern would keep his abilities in most places (that high point Morgenstern could be built by actually paying points, or by hell-riding for about 3 weeks).. If you paid your own points, it would probably be a bit more reliable, which might come in handy if you wanted to take the creature to some extremely bizarre places, like the underside of Shadow. And you'd be sure that there were no unwanted outside influences (so you'd know that you wouldn't actually be getting a "Trojan Horse" ;) ).

Of course, that raises the question: how does my character actually know the difference between the free Morgenstern, and the 21 point Morgenstern? It might make it easier if we were looking at a high-tech mechanical horse that did what Morgenstern could do, but that doesn't have to be the case. So I don't have a good answer for that question.

All I can say is this: if you want it to work in Amber, pay points for it, or spend days/weeks looking for it. But you'll never get your Kryptonian to function in Amber, so points are irrelevant in a case like that, and anything else which is pretty much limited to a particular Shadow is free.

added on edit: this is all my own personal opinion of course, but that is how I'd do things.

I agree with you. The Amberites use swords instead of machineguns because the swords work everywhere (or nearly so). For the same reason they look for an oustanding and unique (or nearly so) exemplar of horse like Morgenstern (and pay points for it).

Maybe we could say that something evaluated zero points has many of its special features working only in the shadow of origin. For this reason I think is necessary to think about the features enough: why an angel fly? If you answer to this question maybe you can say in which shadows they will continue to fly.

Something evalutated at least one point works everywhere, but it must be build taking a normal item and adding the qualities/powers.

A bulldozer of shadow earth could not work in another place, because the fuel won't explode in that shadow. But if you take a shadow earth bulldozer and add at least Mobility (1 point) it will move everywhere (or nearly so). If you pay that point, no one will be able to manipulate the bulldozer to turn against you.
"All my demons cast a spell
The souls of dusk rising from the ashes
So the book of shadows tell
The weak will always obey the master"

Kamelot, The Spell
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http://evermasterx.altervista.org/blog/tag/lords-of-olympus/