But equally saying okay a world with dragons is fine , dragons are inherrent so are free however free dragons can't travel to Amber and keep their powers, doesn't feel right either as asking for 'meta' stuff like gunpowder that works in Amber or a dragon that works in Amber doesn't fit the books and why does a dragon from shadow loose its power when a horse from shadow is fine.
I don't see why.
A gun's abilities are a function of local shadow laws. So is a dragon's breath. Take these away, and both gun and dragon lose their powers.
So you'll say, what about the flight? Yeah, what about it. Do you really think a creature as massive could fly? This is supported by magic (and thus, local shadow laws). Take that away, it won't fly.
You've also got the question of a dragon's life. If it requires local magic to live, it will sicken and die outside of its home shadow.
If you want a dragon that don't conform to these (like, he's his own magical generator), this already becomes far more improbable, and then, you use the points to determine the time it takes, just as wujcik said.
Thing is, again, Amber defines the standard, what you'll find in most shadows. But there'll be shadows where local laws just don't allow oxygen to be breathable, for exemple, but people will be able to "breathe" magic. A horse would die there, while a dragon could be fine.
I really, really, don't see the problem here, at least so long as no one is trying to be a jerk and munchkinny about it (but you can have these players, with similar effects, in any system, this is not a flaw of Amber)
15 days to find him and to convince him to be your dragon via roleplaying of course. I don't think it's too much time, if you include the time to interact with him.
This is really, really important.
The more powerfull something will be, the more rare it'll be, the more difficult it'll be to find one that's naturally well-disposed towards you.
I mean, if 1/1000 human finds you naturally great, no problem. There are lots of these in shadow, so, statistically, you're sure there are some. But exceptionnal humans? Say, how many Bruce Lee did we see? And he was just a 1-point creature. Let's be generous and say 2. You get the idea.
I totlaly beleive that in the books Corwin could have got to a Pern like shadow from Amber in far less than 2 weeks. I suspect once outside the limits of Arden he would have been there in a day and that isn't one dragon that is a horde (or maybe even shadow wide) of Dragon ( for a x3/4 multiplier = 6 - 8 weeks ) .
I can cross my town very center in about 15 minutes.
There's a guy I know which lives in it. I don't know where. If I look at each house, I'll find him. But it'll take me far more time than to simply cross the town center.
On the other hand, if I just want someone, anyone, I only have to ring the next door.
In Amber? This is like finding an exceptionnal army (which no one does) vs finding an army (which corwin does). You'll notice he just seeks out men loyal to him, he doesn't even specify their appearance (which could have been a problem if he wanted them to become spies).
Even admitting he went to Pern, this'd have been useless if:
- They didn't want to follow him. He'd need a Pern with people loyal to him. This already becomes less probable
- Their dragons just fell outside their own shadow, deprived of the local laws that allowed their unconscious psychic power/magic/unobtainium bones to support them.
I can imagine having a GM decide to go by the points, and have one PC take forever to find an iron golem out in shadow. And then later have a different PC easily find a D&D type shadow, where the character then uses his vast wealth (pretty much a given for Amberites) to buy an iron golem from some powerful wizard. That would not make any sense, and be unfair to the guy who spent forever looking for the iron golem.
Absolutely not.
That first golem would be, say, directly powered by his home shadow (like a construct's manifestation), or whatever, allowing him to work a long time.
That second would rely on D&D-specific spells and enchantments that'd soon fail him.
But there is a difference between explanations which actually make a fair amount of sense, and techno-babble.
Throwing out scientific sounding explanations, which only make sense if you don't think about them, is in the realm of tech-babble.
Then, you're denying one of Zelazny's basic tenets of Amber, which is that shadows have different physical laws and may vary widely in this.
Fine by you, but then, it is no longer Amber.
And if I may? I'm not knowledgeable enough about the universe and Physics to say this isn't possible. Are you? Really? I remind you again, the existence of Ether was scientific knowledge, saying anything else was "wrong". Even if you're knowledgeable enough, why would this be different with shadow laws and you couldn't be wrong?
And even if, really, sure, it's impossble, what's to say this isn't imposed by the Pattern/logrus? This is "magic-babble", of course
Sigh... I'm sorry, but it seems to me you're the only one creating your problems here, by searching a kind of scientific caution for Amber. I don't think you'll find it. Even Azimov, who was a real scientist, happened to be proven wrong at times by reality.
If I may, when playing Star Wars RPG, do you deny FTL travel and space dogfight as tech-babble and impossible? This is similar. You'd be ruining your game and fun there, and you are now.
Here the difference is between accepting the existence of unknown forces, powers (trumps and magic), vs dealing with things which seem to contradict what I know (guns are dependent on physical laws, where as horses are not).
There are definitely some other possible explanations for why horses work in Amber but guns do not, but there is some baggage which goes along with those explanations.
Well, you know that this'd require these unknown forces to locally modify physics around each gun that fired?
How difficult is that to believed compared to something like "in this universe, sulfur atoms gain 1 more electron, which changes them enough so that gunpowder don't explode"?
And I'm asking you AGAIN.
Are you absolutely, positively, 100% sure (at least, as far as today's science can be) that it is impossible for any physical constant whatsoever (be it atomic mass, electric charge, gravity, planck constant, conductivity, those unseen dimensions, the cords too, quantum physics, whatever... There are an awful lot of these) to be different enough so that horses will be fine while gunpowder won't explode?
I'll go to a place where I have cosmic genie powers, and create archangels.
Sure, although you're already exanding the bounds of what is possible for you to do.
But just as your cosmic genie powers, these won't be real. And thus won't exist outside that shadow.
What bugger me, though is, I was trying to explain to you, not give a perfect exemple, but knew I'd have that kind of reply instead
Since everything exists, I'll find a magic potion, which gives anybody who drinks it the power of flight, and fly that way.
lol funny.
You do realize, of course, that this is casuistics? You're in fact searching for a magic power, the potion is just a special effect. In both cases, you're trying to "screw the DM".
I'm not trying to provide perfect exemple, just to explain to you the difference between being able to do anything you wanna do and to find any thing you wanna find.
Even IRL, you have this difference. But, well, I'm talking to the wind.
My problem is more with a T-rex, or an electric eel, losing their abilities.
My problem is also with the idea that Amberites can specifically search for things which are "universal." Other than with some very specific instances (like cars, or gun-powder), this issue really isn't dealt with very much in the books.
Oh, that?
Of the 2, the eel is probably the most tricky, because of it's electric abilities. A T-Rex could probably live in Amber. I don't have any problem with it. The eel, I'm not sure, IIRC, there's a problem in Amber with electricty, so it might lose its powers at least somewhat.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean (In fact, I don't thing I understand it at all), but if it's such a problem, disallow it! I've told you before: In your game, you're not constrained to follow any of amber rules and tropes. Even if it has nothing to do with Amber in the end, this is your game, and what's important is for you and your players to have fun.
Now I note that you throw up obstacles but you aren't really laying down many solutions. How you you cost that red dragon? An army of Angels?
Yes, I've noticed that too, which has induced me to become angry and unnerved in my replies, even if I'm trying not to be
.
Warp, you may not have realized it, but this attitude sounds very antagonistic.
The inherent natural abilities of a creature are free. Natural abilities include -
* Intelligence
* Strength due to size - so a horse is as strong as a horse and a T-Rex is as strong as a 50 feet giant lizard, but superman's strength is not natural as it goes beyond the strength for a mansized creature
* Movement - as based on a natural thing, so a hawk can fly at engine speed becuase they can, a dragon can fly , a horse can gallop etc
Sounds fine by me, although I base their "natural abilities" under what they'd get in Amber, the real world.
All creatures and items are free.
A Prince of Amber is kind of like an iceberg, in that he has a shadow part of him (analogous to the part of the iceberg which is above water), and the greater part, (which is the real part that is like the part of the iceberg hidden below the water)
Princes of Amber, and Lords of Chaos, are real, but all their shadow toys are irrelevant, except as expressions of personal style (basically window dressing).
A shadow person only sees the shadow part of a Prince of Amber's body, not the Prince's true essence. And his description of a battle between two princes of Amber would mistakenly focus on the reflections/shadows of the battle, along with their shadow toys. But the shadow person would not see the real/actual conflict, which takes place on a deeper level of reality.
A prince's toys will often be reflections of his true nature. For example, Gerard might ride into a battle mounted on a HUGE war elephant, or commanding a HUGE star-ship. Even his shadow body is very large. But his true power doesn't come from these things, they are merely reflections of the principle of strength which is Gerard.
That is one option I've been considering. It is not all that consistent with the books. But it would solve a number of problems.
I like this a lot, and think this might make a great, probably very memorable and epic game.
In fact, this'd be a great idea for that "amber-like game" in the other thread. I'll quote you there.
But, well, what if one player wanted a Huge creature? or any other huge toy? What would you do if, say, a a high-strenght player has a very big gun, and another search for a laser bazooka?
If the players went along, this's be fine, but an antagonist/munchkin one could really bother you
The only solution I'd see to this would be to say this is just special effects, appearance, so that laser bazooka would do less damage than the big gun. But then, he'd get antagonistic again and search for a laser gatling. You get the idea. So you'd need to base damage purely on a character. Like a "weapons" attribute which determine the damage of any weapon he might use, from a slingshot to a deathstar, the appearance being just fluff. You'd still have problem with that player, but, frankly, at a stage, if he didn't accept the base premise, I don't think he'd be worth it.
Of course, as you said, it wouldn't be Amber: In such a game, corwin and bleys wouldn't need an army to attack Amber, save from the "cool" factor. Similarly, guns would give them no edge.