Combat

[Croaker]

I was wondering, and pondering, about combat, wounds, and combat length.

If we follow the corebook, we have 2 extremes:
- One strike, one kill, taking seconds to be delivered
- Long, inconclusive fights that can stretch on for days.

Setting fatigue aside, that's quite a difference, IMO: we are to assume that 2 similar ranked people (human, chaos, amber, better, whatever) can fight on for days without wounds accumulating and slowing them down enough for a kill? And I'm not talking about a defensive attitude here, which makes things conceivable to me, but of an "opportunistic" one, which is more or less the default. Ok, I'm not a fencer, but it seems to me that even minor wounds will accumulate and cause errors way before that.

This seems to me to have its origin in Corwin and Random sparring for a day being stretched to actual combat. Yet, in a way, all of wujcik exemples are waaay faster than this. Even his exemple of a fight between similarly ranked characters have one taking a long cut only minutes into the fight.

=> IMO, the time frame between "days of fighting" and "instand kill", while mythic, makes little sense. If we swallow it, we make amberites even more larger-than-life characters.


Another thing is that Amber rank seems to convey a kind of "invulnerability", in that a completely outclassed human will just die whereas a completely outclassed amberite will "just" suffer a serious wound. I'm not sure I like this, although it gives some mesure of protection to foolhardy players

[jibbajibba]

I was wondering, and pondering, about combat, wounds, and combat length.

If we follow the corebook, we have 2 extremes:
- One strike, one kill, taking seconds to be delivered
- Long, inconclusive fights that can stretch on for days.

Setting fatigue aside, that's quite a difference, IMO: we are to assume that 2 similar ranked people (human, chaos, amber, better, whatever) can fight on for days without wounds accumulating and slowing them down enough for a kill? And I'm not talking about a defensive attitude here, which makes things conceivable to me, but of an "opportunistic" one, which is more or less the default. Ok, I'm not a fencer, but it seems to me that even minor wounds will accumulate and cause errors way before that.

This seems to me to have its origin in Corwin and Random sparring for a day being stretched to actual combat. Yet, in a way, all of wujcik exemples are waaay faster than this. Even his exemple of a fight between similarly ranked characters have one taking a long cut only minutes into the fight.

=> IMO, the time frame between "days of fighting" and "instand kill", while mythic, makes little sense. If we swallow it, we make amberites even more larger-than-life characters.


Another thing is that Amber rank seems to convey a kind of "invulnerability", in that a completely outclassed human will just die whereas a completely outclassed amberite will "just" suffer a serious wound. I'm not sure I like this, although it gives some mesure of protection to foolhardy players

Gong back to the source material Bleys and then Corwin fought their way up Kolvir. They were fighting Ambers guard who maybe are Chaos rank? they both fought for hours taking mutliple wounds and we assume killing dozens of opponents.

I used to fence, I have done martial arts for years and when you say forget fatigue you really are invalidatign the argument. A punch, kick, cut or fall, doesn't really do much damage unless it does, by which I mean I can punch you in the face a dozen times but if none of the punches really hurt then the net result is really is just fatigue. Each punch takes more fatigue out of you drains you just a little bit more and after a while you can't keep your hands or sword up any more. If you had a huge stamina battery then you woudl be pretty hard to beat unless someone hurt you.

Now hurting people is both hard and easy. its easy to hit someone 10 times and not hurt them much at all but its also easy with a single punch through skill or luck to take some one out in one blow. With swords its even more true.

Muashi would typically try to make just one cut I can't see Benedict having any more problem (although in the book he is a real mug).

[Panjumanju]

I'm not quite sure what the point is you're trying to make with the post, so please excuse me if I'm misinterpreted entirely.

I was wondering, and pondering, about combat, wounds, and combat length.

If we follow the corebook, we have 2 extremes:
- One strike, one kill, taking seconds to be delivered
- Long, inconclusive fights that can stretch on for days.

The thing about combat is, most of the situations of combat in which a player or NPCs could ever find themselves fall in a gradient between these two extremes. Also, I think you're underestimating how much trickery and scenery impact fights.

I think Corwin and Eric's fight in the side-room of Castle Amber is a good example. They are well matched in their warfare with the advantage going to Eric, but Corwin starts hurling random objects at Eric and through the process of it makes an opening whereby Eric is cut. All Corwin has to do is not get hit and ware Eric down until the injury catches up with him.

I suppose what I'm saying is - where there is time, there is opportunity. The more a fight takes the greater chance fighters have of changing the situation.

In this, I feel the rules as written work very well in regards to combat length.

//Panjumanju

[Artifacts of Amber]

The Corwin versus Random fight they mention lasting endless hours was the difference between a fight for fun/entertainment/oneupmenship compared to a fight to the death. Most duels/fights were to the death in the books. That one fight is an extreme as I think the two were most likely toying with each other looking for the "Death" I win blow that would show who is better. It was also a fight from sometime ago and I credit Corwin with having gotten better.

Long fights only rage on when neither opponent has much  to gain for the risk. You don't offer an opening without some serious gain as the shorter fights would show. Were neither one is willing to Lose.

Just my thoughts

[RPGPundit]

I think that any Amber gamer who underestimates the role of Endurance is not paying close attention to the source material.

Anyways, I'll take advantage of the thread to mention that Lords of Olympus goes into more details and creates more a framework for handling combat.

RPGPundit

[Jason D]

Setting fatigue aside, that's quite a difference, IMO: we are to assume that 2 similar ranked people (human, chaos, amber, better, whatever) can fight on for days without wounds accumulating and slowing them down enough for a kill?

Why assume that?

Human rank is exactly that. Average human. An average human couldn't in all likelihood fight nonstop for days, and I'd imagine even someone with Chaos rank wouldn't be able to, either.

As for Corwin's and Random's fencing duel, I suspect it was a combination of:

a) nonlethal weapons like fencing foils or unsharpened sabers
b) breaks for drinking
c) breaks for toilet use
d) a more idle tone... they were fencing for sport, not to the death

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, the mistake Croaker is making there is in thinking that the ranks only exist as relative comparisons and not in any way as universal measurements.

RPGpundit

[finarvyn]

I think that any Amber gamer who underestimates the role of Endurance is not paying close attention to the source material.

I agree with you, sir! I've long advocated that Endurance is actually the most important of the four attributes because it can come into play for any of the other three!

[RPGPundit]

I agree with you, sir! I've long advocated that Endurance is actually the most important of the four attributes because it can come into play for any of the other three!

Lords of Olympus takes steps to quantify that.

[Artifacts of Amber]

Yeah Endurance in Fighting and the use of powers comes up in my game a good deal. Unfortunately (or fortunately for the players) Almost everyone bid into Endurance as a Stat in my current game. So they seldom get all that tired. Though I do have to keep impressing on them the "Amber" level of functioning, they are always wanting to rest and sleep when I point out they aren't really tired, their Damn Amberites!

[Taewakan]

I think they have it right. Endurance is the ultimate tie-breaker. I let it adjust damage down by two ranks at Base Amber Level of Endurance i.e. no one-shot death blows or Mortal Wounds from anyone regardless of Rank. This gives the Base Amber Warfare the potential for a Mortal Wound vs. A Lord of Chaos (modified by weapon damage type) and the potential for a one-shot kill vs. A Human (modified by weapon damage type.)

I think Corwin makes the distinction between combat for fun and combat in earnest when you look at the difference between his twenty-four hour fencing competition with Random and his attitude toward Borel. This isn't the Olympics, after all.
Now add the weapon damage from a Primal Damage Weapon like Grayswandir and Borel is screwed. Just landing a near miss is enough to kill Borel outright, albeit slowly and painfully since the hit itself actually appeared to be minor. (16 points of Weapon Damage Type divided by 2 gives a plus 8 Damage Ranks (in my game, once upon a when) to any hit vs. a LoC.)
Oops.

Borel might have had a significant Endurance, slowing his death throes long enough for him to whine about Corwin cheating to anyone within Trump range, but that's just my 2 cents. I think Corwin's one-shot kill of Borel was an example of dramatic license... and, well-written.