2 player auction...

[yrtalien]

I may be a bit confused on how the auction system works ... so I come to you...

I have convinced my 2 best friends to give Amber a try and I'm wondering how to run an auction that just involves 2 people.  They are going to end up being 1st and 2nd in their generation and neither (I've heard them making plans) intends to bid very much for their stats.  One of the players is planning on at max bidding 10 in every stat....  If player 2 isnt interested in getting higher than a 10 psyche I'm not certain I want 10 to be the highest Psyche of their generation... that just seems lame....

I don't want to cheat my players out of being first or second of their gen in a stat but I also don't want to define their generation according to their cheap purchase prices....   Is it hokey for me to have a young'un of their gen beat them out ....

First time Amber GM looking for advice.... thank you.
Oscar

[scottishstorm]

One option is to include NPCs and make bids for those NPCs.  You might even say that NPCs will have less initial points, but are still ranked in their generation for stats (ie: suppose you have three or four NPCs, each built with 80 points while the player-characters have 100).

Next, set limits on Good & Bad Stuff.  Typically, this is -10/+10 (with leftover points beyond 10 just thought to be in reserved, but not associated with the Stuff attribute).  Also, consider using partial powers.  There are many excellent breakdowns of the DRPG powers on the net.  A character only recently walked the Pattern is probably not likely to have all the abilities of Basic Pattern, which frees up more points for other powers or stats.

Finally, before the auction, decide how you want to shape your NPCs.  Understandably, you don't want to 'cheat' your players out of the potential of a #1, but neither do you want to sell stats short in your game.  It might be fair to cap an NPC's maximum "bid" on any attribute to 35 points, regardless of how they spend their other points.

Hypothetically, you may end up with a chart similar to this, reflecting their initial and max bids:

NPC1: (Psyche 5-15, Strength: N/B, Endurance: 5-10, Warfare: 15-20)
NPC2: (Psyche: N/B, Strength 12-25, Endurance: 10-15, Warfare: 5)
NPC3: (Psyche: 15-30, Strength: N/B, Endurance: 2-10, Warfare: N/B)
NPC4: (Psyche: N/B, Strength: N/B, Endurance: N/B, Warfare: 35)

This way, you have four NPCs that can be competetive with  your player-characters.  Your players can determine for themselves if they wish to try for a #1 rank.  The operative word is "try".  It's not as fun if it's a guarantee.   You may tell them that your NPCs have a bidding cap, but don't mention the number).

Another benefit of doing to this way is to establish ranks for your progressive campaign.

[scottishstorm]

Another option could be to bypass the auction altogether and ignore ranks.  If your players want to max out stats at 10 or so, it's their choice.  They should know that their character -while better than the majority of in-shadow threats- do not hold much of a candle to the elders (and, again, possibly not to any NPCs you also make from this generation of Amberites... even enemy Chaosians).

Drop subtle hints that the powers can be complex and unwieldy.  Sure, they can be terrific advantages but only in select situations while attributes are constant and far more reliable.  No power can effectively diminish an attribute (*).  But, powers can do this to other powers.  What good is trump if trump is restricted (or altogether doesn't work) in a given shadow?  Pattern, in an around Amber, is of very limited use.  Strength is strength everywhere! Advanced uses of Pattern or Logrus can "smell" practitioners of the counterpoint power.  It could be very hard to disguise a Logrus Master in Amber or a Pattern initiate in Chaos.  But, no one has a "Detect warfare" power to quickly see your strength in that (or any) attribute.

Another idea (one I've admittedly never tried) may be to engage your players in mock situations, even battles, using the templates for DRPG elders.  Have a "Julian vs Bleys" throwdown just for kicks and encourage your players to start finding creative ways around their opponents' strengths, exploiting their weaknesses.  Also consider having one character build an Amberite(with Pattern) and the other build a Chaosian (with Logrus), then have them face off in a mock battle (a great way to learn to respect even a base 0/Amber rank in an attribute).

New players tend to see glitter, and glitter often equals powers in the DRPG.  Especially to a new player.  The more the player sees (and experiences) of the nuance inherent in the DRPG, the more respect they'll likely have for all different variations of characters.

(*) I lied.  There are powers that can decrease attributes.  Sorcery comes to mind ("Ray of enfeeblement" anyone?).  But, generally, powers leave attributes untouched.

[Croaker]

Well, you've got 2 players.
Play one versus the other.

That guy wanna put 10 points into all of his attributes? If his buddy puts 11, he's second, and that's all. Whatever he does, he's screwed.

But in the end, I'd say remember Erick's words: The things they put their points into are the things they're interested in, the things they expect to see in the campain. If they don't spend points on attributes, it means attributes aren't interesting to them. So, take this into account: if everything goes into items, have a game where items matters and everyone uses them. If they spend everything in powers, you've got your typical Merlin campain, where powers rule the game. Doing otherwise would be similar to have people go see an action movie, only to discover they're in for a family comedy

This doesn't mean that attributes can't be powerful and used, but they shouldn't be the focus of the game: Just as, if your players put everything in Strength, you won't have them face swordmen and sorcerers, if they put everything into Pattern, don't drop them in an endless series of tavern brawl fights, but pit them against similar power users.

Anyway, if they want to put all their points into powers, you've still got 2 things going for attributes:
- Powers are tiring, thus Endurance is precious
- Your psyche determines your strenght and raw skill with powers.

[gabriel_ss4u]

One option is to include NPCs and make bids for those NPCs.  You might even say that NPCs will have less initial points, but are still ranked in their generation for stats (ie: suppose you have three or four NPCs, each built with 80 points while the player-characters have 100).

Next, set limits on Good & Bad Stuff.  Typically, this is -10/+10 (with leftover points beyond 10 just thought to be in reserved, but not associated with the Stuff attribute).  Also, consider using partial powers.  There are many excellent breakdowns of the DRPG powers on the net.  A character only recently walked the Pattern is probably not likely to have all the abilities of Basic Pattern, which frees up more points for other powers or stats.

Finally, before the auction, decide how you want to shape your NPCs.  Understandably, you don't want to 'cheat' your players out of the potential of a #1, but neither do you want to sell stats short in your game.  It might be fair to cap an NPC's maximum "bid" on any attribute to 35 points, regardless of how they spend their other points.

Hypothetically, you may end up with a chart similar to this, reflecting their initial and max bids:

NPC1: (Psyche 5-15, Strength: N/B, Endurance: 5-10, Warfare: 15-20)
NPC2: (Psyche: N/B, Strength 12-25, Endurance: 10-15, Warfare: 5)
NPC3: (Psyche: 15-30, Strength: N/B, Endurance: 2-10, Warfare: N/B)
NPC4: (Psyche: N/B, Strength: N/B, Endurance: N/B, Warfare: 35)

This way, you have four NPCs that can be competetive with  your player-characters.  Your players can determine for themselves if they wish to try for a #1 rank.  The operative word is "try".  It's not as fun if it's a guarantee.   You may tell them that your NPCs have a bidding cap, but don't mention the number).

Another benefit of doing to this way is to establish ranks for your progressive campaign.

exactly! excellently stated.
I've done this and it works well.
it lends for some great NPC creations.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Well, you've got 2 players.
Play one versus the other.

That guy wanna put 10 points into all of his attributes? If his buddy puts 11, he's second, and that's all. Whatever he does, he's screwed.

But in the end, I'd say remember Erick's words: The things they put their points into are the things they're interested in, the things they expect to see in the campain. If they don't spend points on attributes, it means attributes aren't interesting to them. So, take this into account: if everything goes into items, have a game where items matters and everyone uses them. If they spend everything in powers, you've got your typical Merlin campaign, where powers rule the game. Doing otherwise would be similar to have people go see an action movie, only to discover they're in for a family comedy

This doesn't mean that attributes can't be powerful and used, but they shouldn't be the focus of the game: Just as, if your players put everything in Strength, you won't have them face swordsmen and sorcerers, if they put everything into Pattern, don't drop them in an endless series of tavern brawl fights, but pit them against similar power users.

Anyway, if they want to put all their points into powers, you've still got 2 things going for attributes:
- Powers are tiring, thus Endurance is precious
- Your psyche determines your strength and raw skill with powers.

and another sound piece of advice on any game.
my GM campaign book will have these incorporated.
thanks for putting it so well.

[Croaker]

My pleasure. Thanks for the compliments

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, its very very difficult to do an auction for just two players.

The obvious "patch" to this is to think up a bunch of NPCs, and have them participate in the auction. This requires a GREAT deal of GM objectivity, and getting into the mind of these imaginary players creating NPCs, as to how much they'd bid and where they'd stop.

Another idea that might work for you would be if you had other friends who either couldn't play or weren't really interested in playing in your campaign but would be willing to take up an evening in creating the other PCs for you. This would let you as GM be out of the equation and would add more to that sense of spontaneity that is so important in the process. The danger here is that they'd have to be trustworthy people who wouldn't go apeshit on the bids for a character they knew they'd never end up playing.

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

Funny, that's exactly what jibba and I did for Eoghann

[gabriel_ss4u]

I can create NPCs and take myself out of the equation. It takes a great many years of gming (IMO) to have no GM ego, to merely be the tool and not the man behind it. To create and populate with NPCs you love but are not attached to, and it is possible. I do it, my GM does it, I learned it from him, he from his...

But Pundit is right in that it IS difficult to have an auction for just 2.
If you have experience in NPC creation, family plot creation, and can story spin them into a good adventure, you have a chance.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Yeah, its very very difficult to do an auction for just two players.

The obvious "patch" to this is to think up a bunch of NPCs, and have them participate in the auction. This requires a GREAT deal of GM objectivity, and getting into the mind of these imaginary players creating NPCs, as to how much they'd bid and where they'd stop.
RPGPundit

I can do this. I know others can.
I wrote about it in some thread,... long ago...

[scottishstorm]

I think it's a point of partly hamstringing your npcs so they're competitive with the PCs, but only to a point.  Frankly, it would likely be disastrous if the npcs held all four #1 attribute ranks (at least potentially disastrous).  When it comes down to things the PCs -not the npcs- should be the "stars" of the campaign.

Yep, I just wrote the above as subjective to all kinds of exceptions and rebuttals.  You can post them or just take it in the spirit it's intended.  I see nothing wrong with certain npcs being very significant and/or holding #1 ranks.  I'm just suggesting that the player-character should have ample opportunity to get these ranks for themselves... perhaps a little more opportunity than the NPCs (ie: npcs may have less overall points).

[gabriel_ss4u]

Yes, players lead the way, the fun is for them, if they have fun, I'm havin' fun.
I'll usually bid up an NPC to rival the PC, depends on how many NPCs you're creating.
That close rivalry between a player & NPC makes for good storylines.

Are they full sibling or half blood?
there are many factors to determine, have fun and a general idea of where you're going, to include the pts. for powers just as if it were your char.
Your players will determine the type of char. they want to be so let them have their sphere/specialty.

are they friends/allies/enemies?
even go through the char. quiz for the NPC to help understand their thinking.

Lemme know how it goes...

[yrtalien]

Thank you all for your replies and helpful advice.  I like the idea of trying to bid for NPCs so I'm going to create 4 or so and bid for them.  Hopefully I can do this so it doesn't look cheesey : )

Again thanks for all your help!  I'll be planning this game over the course of the next couple of months and will probably come back here with even more questions... I hope I don't drive you all buggy with them

THANKS

[scottishstorm]

Quite welcome, yrtalien.  Happy to help.

Another piece of advice re "not being cheesy".  You could (honestly) explain to your players that every generation is, in effect, a dynasty of characters.  Even with 4 (NPCs) + 2 (PCs), this is still less than half of the original novel characters.  By this, I mean each of the characters in Chronicles were or became icons.  No two of them were alike.  Each were distinct and loved or hated for their distinctiveness.  Each also had their own claims at power and notability.  Frankly, there is not enough room in only two characters to be 'reflected' from the previous generation.  Even with six, there really isn't.

That isn't to say that there MUST be a 2nd generation "Benedict" or "Brand" or "Corwin," etc.  Your PCs and NPCs are open to new concepts and to create their own legends.  However, having four npc types to measure themselves against will ultimately be something your players will THANK you for.  Ideally, these npcs will help define their own characters, and vice-versa.