Spawning off from another thread.  Doc Sammy suggests

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092201It's high time we take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk.

It's worth exploring.

What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

Quote from: Aglondir;1092388What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

The punk aspect of "cyberpunk" I believe is the whole "stick it to the man" vibe that it has, where corporations are all greedy jerks keeping the people down and getting rich off of their suffering etc.

Basically any setting with a bunch of cybernetic enhancements could fit, especially when they're a new-ish technology and still not solid in how it fits in morally to the world. Probably keep it in the near-ish future.

I'm actually not sure how "punk" the Deus Ex setting really is. Somewhat - but not all corporations are exploitative etc. At the very least the Deus Ex games are rather lite on the "punk" half of the cyberpunk genre.

While the first movie was borderline, I don't think that the Ghost in the Shell show really qualifies for the "punk" aspect at all since the main characters are actually working for a government agency, albeit one which often uncovers various corruption in corporations and other government agencies.

There are other sci-fi I can think of with cyborgs which have zero punk, but they're further future with space travel etc., and that probably pushes it into an entirely different genre.

"Punk is nothing but death … and crime … and the RAGE of a beast."--Batman

That is about all I have to contribute to this discussion.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092397"Punk is nothing but death … and crime … and the RAGE of a beast."--Batman

That is about all I have to contribute to this discussion.

Batman was right on the money with that observation

The main issue with the Cyberpunk 2077 controversy is that SJW's are convinced they own Cyberpunk as a genre since they also dominate the Punk subculture.

I think if we remove the punk subculture elements in the Cyberpunk genre, the SJW's won't have a leg to stand on at all in their ridiculous claims.

I'm all for "sticking it to The Man" but in this day and age, the leftist punks are "The Man"

Interestingly, it sounds like when Bruce Bethke coined the word, he was actually trying to invent a term for hacker kids rather than punk rockers (I suppose "hacker" wasn't widely known in 1980):

QuoteThe kids who trashed my computer; their kids were going to be Holy Terrors, combining the ethical vacuity of teenagers with a technical fluency we adults could only guess at....

How did I actually create the word? The way any new word comes into being, I guess: through synthesis. I took a handful of roots--cyber, techno, et al--mixed them up with a bunch of terms for socially misdirected youth, and tried out the various combinations until one just plain sounded right.

You know what you get when you take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk?

Transhumanism and all the stupid wankery that lawncrappers like SJWs turn it into.

It's a reaction to commercialization on a cultural level. Which is why it has an extremely strong DIY aesthetic. It's about taking what "the Man" has given us - and doing our own thing with it.

Punk doesn't necessarily about "crime" in some overt way - it's creative destruction against the status-quo. Taking the "punk" out of cyberpunk has some pretty massive implications to the setting. Cyberpunk *is* a direct reaction to assumptions of the world. If you remove it...

1) Then it means either the populace just is going along with whatever the situation is as handed down by the oligarchical corporate powers. So 1984, Brazil, Zero Theorem, etc. an authoritarian/totalitarian dystopia.
2) Or everything is right as rain. And technology flourishes. Everyone is generally happy. You have proto-Star Trek. The issue here becomes - you have low-level sci-fi and need a conflict. Which could be interesting.
3) Or... sci-fi superheroes?

Quote from: jeff37923;1092407You know what you get when you take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk?

Transhumanism and all the stupid wankery that lawncrappers like SJWs turn it into.

Nowadays, the Punks are the transhumanists and SJW's.

That's why the SJW's and transtrenders are throwing bitch fits about Cyberpunk 2077 and how Cyberpunk culture is somehow "theirs" because the punk subculture actually does belong to them.

Even if the "punk" in cyberpunk was not related to the subculture at all, the lefty punks still see the genre as "theirs" because of the worst thing to ever come out of the culture of the 1970's.

I'm all for defying authority and tyranny, but in this day and age, the punk subculture (or more accurately, Punk's bastard daughter subcultures such as hipsters and dangerhairs) are the authoritarian tyrants that need to be rebelled against and opposed.

In a perfect world, the 70's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving instead of the other way around.

Quote from: tenbones;1092408It's a reaction to commercialization on a cultural level. Which is why it has an extremely strong DIY aesthetic. It's about taking what "the Man" has given us - and doing our own thing with it.

Punk doesn't necessarily about "crime" in some overt way - it's creative destruction against the status-quo. Taking the "punk" out of cyberpunk has some pretty massive implications to the setting. Cyberpunk *is* a direct reaction to assumptions of the world. If you remove it...

1) Then it means either the populace just is going along with whatever the situation is as handed down by the oligarchical corporate powers. So 1984, Brazil, Zero Theorem, etc. an authoritarian/totalitarian dystopia.
2) Or everything is right as rain. And technology flourishes. Everyone is generally happy. You have proto-Star Trek. The issue here becomes - you have low-level sci-fi and need a conflict. Which could be interesting.
3) Or... sci-fi superheroes?

When I say we should take the Punk out of Cyberpunk, I am not referring to the theme of rebellious defiance against the status quo.

I am specifically referring to the trappings and aesthetics of the Punk subculture and its Millennial descendants instead.

Given that the Punk subculture is rooted in far-left orthodoxy and ideological purity spirals, both of which are the dominant creative authorities today, I'd say the most "punk" thing to do is to attack and rebel against the punk subculture and its leftist and transhumanist trappings.

While there were noted exceptions such as Johnny Ramone (conservative libertarian), Skrewdriver (Neo-Nazi scumbags), and GG Allin (shock-jock edgelord) it would be a lie to say that Punk wasn't always a far-left subculture.

In its heyday, it was mostly left-wing while nowadays punk is exclusively left-wing as are most of its bastard children (excluding the Goths, who were founded as explicitly apolitical and individualist in nature)

Basically, my idea for the perfect Cyberpunk setting is one where the Transhumanists, SJW's, Punks, and Neo-Communists are "The Man" that needs to be rebelled against

In essence, the perfect 2010's Cyberpunk story is one where the "punks" are the dystopian status quo and the real rebels oppose the punks and their trappings.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092397"Punk is nothing but death ... and crime ... and the RAGE of a beast."--Batman

That is about all I have to contribute to this discussion.

To me, punk was always a rather childish "I hate you mommy and daddy!"

Quote from: Trond;1092417To me, punk was always a rather childish "I hate you mommy and daddy!"

This guy gets it.

Punk ideology and subculture can best be summed up as "Fuck you, Mommy and Daddy!"

Quote from: jeff37923;1092407You know what you get when you take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk?

Transhumanism and all the stupid wankery that lawncrappers like SJWs turn it into.

Lawncrappers = Tipper Gore

Cyberpunk fans = Biafra Jello

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092422Lawncrappers = Tipper Gore

Cyberpunk fans = Ronnie James Dio

Fixed that for you.

Metalheads are the true rebels in my book, especially in this day and age where the Punks have become "The Man" for all intents and purposes.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092423Fixed that for you.

Metalheads are the true rebels in my book, especially in this day and age where the Punks have become "The Man" for all intents and purposes.

The punks can't become the man, anymore than you can make liberalism into authoritarianism. The Punks is short hand for those raging against the machine and refusing to go quiet into the night.

You can of course stop being a Punk and become "The Man". Some other Punks will come to rebel against you, from every walk of life if you're shitty enough (as we see with the baizuo)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092405I think if we remove the punk subculture elements in the Cyberpunk genre, the SJW's won't have a leg to stand on at all in their ridiculous claims.

I'm all for "sticking it to The Man" but in this day and age, the leftist punks are "The Man"

Dumping the Punk just turns the genre into vanilla sci-fi.

Putting leftists as the authoritarians is certainly fitting for a modern take on Cyberpunk. I'm sure it could be done with themes like eco-terrorism, and corporations that use progressive ideas to sell their bullshit, and control their employees. (Have you been to sensitivity training this month?) Heh, a woke battle between Arasaka and Militech would be amusing. Accusing each other of discrimination and paying their women employees less than the men.

Doc Sammy, if you can track down a copy of Main lines, blood feasts, and bad taste by Lester Bangs, you might appreciate his writing on the roots of punk:

QuoteThe roots of punk was the first time a kid ended up living with his parents till he was 40...Punk is stupid proud consumerism. Punk is oblivion when it isn't even fun and unlike winos you do have a choice in fact: you're young. Punk is ten thousand tattered skin magazines under your bed but never getting any satisfaction from masturbation...

He goes on and on like that. the guy knew how to rant.