I don't much like the Fighter ability to get his level in attacks/round vs 1 hd (or 0-level in 1e) foes, since it requires the GM to tell the player how many hd the enemy have, or the player has to constantly ask. It's also a bit silly at higher level IMO. But without some kind of multi attack Fighters can be seriously underpowered at higher level. I'm also not a fan of weapon specialisation bonuses to hit & damage, they change the balance of weapons and make two-handed high damage weapons underpowered; it also favours missile weapons with a high attack rate.

Somewhat influenced by 5e's insight that you can give staggered attacks/round bonuses to fighters without breaking the game (in 5e at 5th, 11th & 20th) matching where other classes like wizard/MU get big spell boosts, and wanting to restore the importance of Hero (4th) & Supehero (8th) levels, I came up with the following, specifically for my Swords & Wizardry game but it should work in all pre-3e D&D, especially if 18%-strength is not in play - so ideal for OD&D and BX-BECMI.

Fighters get +1 attack to the weapon normal attack rate at the following levels: 2nd, 4th & 8th. For melee weapons this gives an attack rate as follows:

Fighter
Level    #Attacks
1              1
2-3           2
4-7           3
8              4

Fighter subclasses such as Paladin & Ranger (& Cavalier, Barbarian etc) get bonus attacks at 4th & 8th only, giving the following attack rates for melee weapons

Paladin & Ranger
Level    #Attacks
1-3            1
4-7            2
8+             3

So far this seems to work really well. I've tweaked Ranger bonus damage vs giant class creatures to take account of the increased number of attacks:
Ranger Level 1-5 Bonus damage +1/level
Ranger Level 6-15 Bonus damage +1/2 levels:
Level Bonus
7         +6
9         +7
11       +8
13       +9
15       +10 (max)

Quote from: S'mon;1050736I don't much like the Fighter ability to get his level in attacks/round vs 1 hd (or 0-level in 1e) foes, since it requires the GM to tell the player how many hd the enemy have, or the player has to constantly ask. It's also a bit silly at higher level IMO. But without some kind of multi attack Fighters can be seriously underpowered at higher level. I'm also not a fan of weapon specialisation bonuses to hit & damage, they change the balance of weapons and make two-handed high damage weapons underpowered; it also favours missile weapons with a high attack rate.

Somewhat influenced by 5e's insight that you can give staggered attacks/round bonuses to fighters without breaking the game (in 5e at 5th, 11th & 20th) matching where other classes like wizard/MU get big spell boosts, and wanting to restore the importance of Hero (4th) & Supehero (8th) levels, I came up with the following, specifically for my Swords & Wizardry game but it should work in all pre-3e D&D, especially if 18%-strength is not in play - so ideal for OD&D and BX-BECMI.

Fighters get +1 attack to the weapon normal attack rate at the following levels: 2nd, 4th & 8th. For melee weapons this gives an attack rate as follows:

Fighter
Level    #Attacks
1              1
2-3           2
4-7           3
8              4

Fighter subclasses such as Paladin & Ranger (& Cavalier, Barbarian etc) get bonus attacks at 4th & 8th only, giving the following attack rates for melee weapons

Paladin & Ranger
Level    #Attacks
1-3            1
4-7            2
8+             3

So far this seems to work really well. I've tweaked Ranger bonus damage vs giant class creatures to take account of the increased number of attacks:
Ranger Level 1-5 Bonus damage +1/level
Ranger Level 6-15 Bonus damage +1/2 levels:
Level Bonus
7         +6
9         +7
11       +8
13       +9
15       +10 (max)

So, like in Chainmail, Crimson Blades and the likes, but with d20:)?
I like that, it's almost as good as the attack table of EPT;)! And it also reminds me of WFRP, which is always a bonus.

Quote from: AsenRG;1050775So, like in Chainmail, Crimson Blades and the likes, but with d20:)?
I like that, it's almost as good as the attack table of EPT;)! And it also reminds me of WFRP, which is always a bonus.

Thanks! Yes Chainmail was a big inspiration - more for knowing how it inspired OD&D since I don't play it myself. Also thinking how Chainmail inspired the legion-slaughtering Hero & Superhero chits in White Bear Red Moon/Dragon Pass boardgame.

BTW I also give Thief & MU types +1 attack at 8th, Cleric types +1 attack at 7th, so they can have a go meleeing hill giants if they really want. But I definitely wanted something to keep Fighters impressive all through the single digit levels, and more attacks works a lot better IME than piling on bonuses.

Um... news flash... But AD&D allready gave fighters multiple attacks per round based on level and BX D&D suggested it as well for levels 15 up.

As is an O or A/2e D&D fighter can dole out alot of damage as is depending on what they have to bring to bear on the target.

Quick example: An O or BX Black Dragon averages around 31 HP. An AD&D or 2e one has 40.
An O/BX fighter averages 3.5 damage a round if using the base d6 of all weapons. Or up to 5.5 damage for BX and 6.6 in A/2. Not counting any stat or magic weapon bonus.

A single O/BX fighter can take down a black dragon in on average 8 rounds. 6 rounds with a +1 weapon. 5 rounds with a +2.
A single AD&D fighter can take down a black dragon in about 5 rounds with no magic or stat bonuses. At level 14 they can kill it in on average 3. And it just gets faster with every stat or magic weapon bonus.

Using 5e as a measuring stick is a major mistake as its balanced to dealing with much higher HP totals for monsters.
The same adult black dragon in 5e averages 195 hp and is a high end threat at CR 14.
At level 14 a fighter has 3 attacks a round and possibly as much as a STR 20 if they have been putting those points into stats. Even without stat or magic bonuses a single fighter can take the dragon down in on average 11 rounds. Assuming a totally pumped 21 STR then the dragon is down in around 6. +1 to 3 weapon? Down in around 5 rounds.

All of this is just based on potential damage output and averages. It could take longer, or shorter to get the job done in any edition.

This is why fighters in D&D are so awesome. They can dole out a whole lot of hurtin with just the basics. Adding MORE attacks per round than they have allready is going to make them potentially absurdly overpowered. It is not so much a problem in O/BX where there is no, or little bonus from STR. But in A/2 or combined with magic weapons it can start to get notable.

I tried this with BX D&D by using the rules in X and just applying them at level 1 instead of level 15 so a fighter gained an extra attack every 5 levels. Once they hit that 2 attack threshold they can massacre otherwise tough foes. It work and does not too severely overbalance things. But you really need to stay aware that this is going to make some encounters alot easier now.

Very YMMV.

Biggest mistake D+D design ever made was not meaningfully increasing the offensive firepower of fighters, more or less in step with their rise in HP. This is a pretty good approximation of what they should have done.

Quote from: Omega;1050797Um... news flash... But AD&D allready gave fighters multiple attacks per round based on level and BX D&D suggested it as well for levels 15 up.

As is an O or A/2e D&D fighter can dole out alot of damage as is depending on what they have to bring to bear on the target.

....

I'm not totally clear on your basis for this calculations but they don't look right to me. The example you present, evaluated for 1E AD+D: A fighter attacking an 8 HD black dragon; a fighter of equal level (8th) gets 3 attacks per 2 rounds, each of which hits on an 11 and does an expected damage based on weapon type; let's say 1d12 for a longsword on a large creature. That means the expected value for damage done over 2 turns is just under 10 points, or 5 per turn. The dragon will have HP depending on age and size, but an 8 HD creature averages 36. So, 7 turns gets you close and 8 seals the deal. This is within a factor of 2 of your calculation, but I don't see how you got it to be lower.

For what it's worth, that fighter has little chance of surviving that long; a black dragon in 1E AD+D attacking someone in plate and shield doles out an average of 8-9 points of damage per turn, on average (again, an expected value based on to-hit and mean damage per attack). Not counting breath attacks or spells, naturally. An 8th level fighter has an average of 44 HP, so he's done after 5 turns (likely more like 2-3 when you consider breath attacks). Of course you can give him magical items and ST 18 and so forth, but that is not a good way to understand the basic dynamics of how a game system works.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050804Biggest mistake D+D design ever made was not meaningfully increasing the offensive firepower of fighters, more or less in step with their rise in HP. This is a pretty good approximation of what they should have done.

Except they do increase in firepower. It is just that the Fighter, and Thief for that matter, increases mostly based on equipment. The main issue can be that it can end up being very random or arbitrary depending on the DM or adventure. But as noted. Even with basic equipment and no stat bonuses a fighter is still darn potent.

Dave Arneson (at least in the one game I played with him) used a Cleave-like ability for fighters. If you kill something, you get a free attack. Rinse and repeat until you miss, hit something you don't kill, or run out of enemies in melee range.

As for increased firepower, I've used in OD&D the concept that Fighters get +1/2 Level (round down) as damage and +Level as attack bonus. AKA, 5th level fighter gets +5 attack and +2 damage. With D6 base damage for weapons, the Fighter swiftly becomes a killing machine ala Conan which is my goal. By comparisons, Clerics get +1/2 Level as attack bonus and no damage bonus while Mages get +1/3 Level attack bonus and also no damage bonus. I didn't want to uber nerf mages in melee, and my wizards can use swords because Elric. As for armor, Fighter get armor & shield, Clerics get armor only (need free hand for holy symbol) and Mages get naked.

Quote from: Omega;1050797Um... news flash... But AD&D allready gave fighters multiple attacks per round based on level and BX D&D suggested it as well for levels 15 up.

LOL. No shit Sherlock! :rolleyes:

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050804Biggest mistake D+D design ever made was not meaningfully increasing the offensive firepower of fighters, more or less in step with their rise in HP. This is a pretty good approximation of what they should have done.

Thanks - yes I'm not sure why their offensive power in Chainmail was lost by the time of BX. AD&D compensated by adding on the potential for enormous to hit and damage bonuses with d% STR, giant strength gauntlets, and weapon spec - an Unearthed Arcana Ftr-1 with x2 spec is attacking 3/2 per round at +3 to hit for +3 damage, or 5/2 with two hand axes (my UA Ranger-1 is a fearsome sight!) - but I don't think that is the right way to go. I've messed around with attack bonuses a lot over the years, but my conclusion is that multiple attacks with minimal bonuses work a lot better.  They also make magic '+' weapons a lot more significant.

Re when to put the extra attacks, well I've played 1e which gives them at 7th & 13th, and BECMI which sort-of gives them at 12th 24th & 36th (along with a convoluted weapon mastery system). My conclusion is that for OD&D type play Fighters should be getting all their multi-attack *before* Lord level (9th), since that is when they begin to transition from Superhero to Ruler status. Mentzer's approach really gets in the way of that I think.

But I appreciate he was designing for 1-36 play, I'm focusing on the single digit levels where I think D&D works best.

Part of the problem is the revisionist history of the OSR that seems to think even a +1 weapon is munchkinism, when magic swords were one of the ways fighters (and to a lesser extent, thieves) gained combat power. Oh and that and strength over 15 is also munchkinism. Damage bonus? Powergaming. And again, high ability scores and magic armor were meant to be part of the fighter's natural progression while adventuring.  They are the equivalent of MUs finding new scrolls with high level spells on them (how most MUs learn spells), but no one ever seems to question that.

But in my game, I have a  7th level fighter with +2 full plate, +2 shield, and 16 dex, for an ac of -6. So a 8 HD monster would hit them on a 18 or better.

 For damage, they use a +3 battle axe, with combined with strength and double weapon specialization, does 1-8+10 damage and get two attacks per round.  So an average of 29 per round (and with +8 to hit, they usually do)

BECMI makes fighters even tougher with weapon mastery.

This is why 2e and BECMI had to massively beef up dragons.

Re dragons, IME OD&D- BX - 1e dragons are NOT a good generic basis for working calculations from. They have very low hit dice for their threat level; a 6 hd  white dragon is about as tough as a 6 hd winter wolf and weaker than a 7 hd griffin, never mind a 10+ hd frost giant. Their fragility may make good sense for flying creatures, and it keeps the breath damage = hp just about survivable for higher level PCs, but it also means a dragon typically dies in 1 round to a party of appropriate level (for me that's one that can probably survive being breathed on once). If I were doing calculations I'd more likely use Steading of the Hill Giant Chief for 8th level PCs.

My rule is actually intended that a 4th level Hero might have a small chance to challenge a small dragon solo and win. I'm thinking that against massed units dragons just fly over them and breathe, killing everyone, but that they can be challenged to a duel by those brave enough to face them one on one.

Quote from: Omega;1050797Quick example: An O or BX Black Dragon averages around 31 HP. An AD&D or 2e one has 40.

Just spotted this.

If you think a 2e black dragon averages 40 hp you should probably shut the fuck up while the adults are talking. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Spinachcat;1050812As for increased firepower, I've used in OD&D the concept that Fighters get +1/2 Level (round down) as damage and +Level as attack bonus.

I ran a 1e campaign with a damage bonus rule like that, it worked ok but I'm finding that multi attacks works better - but 1/level vs 1 hd is overpowered vs 1 hd and underpowered vs everyone else. So after a lot of careful tweaking I have the OP.

Quote from: JeremyR;1050817But in my game, I have a  7th level fighter with +2 full plate, +2 shield, and 16 dex, for an ac of -6. So a 8 HD monster would hit them on a 18 or better.
 For damage, they use a +3 battle axe, with combined with strength and double weapon specialization, does 1-8+10 damage and get two attacks per round.  So an average of 29 per round (and with +8 to hit, they usually do)

That certainly matches my experience of running 1e BiTD. I definitely would not recommend using my suggestion with 1e style weapon spec & d% STR, or even with the 1e rules for generating NPC magic items (looting of whom is what gives 1e PCs all those items by 6th level IME). I wrote it for my S&W campaign, so it works best with OD&D or (I think) BX and clones - should work with Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy et al, not 1e clones like OSRIC.

For my S&W game I've been using mostly Basic Fantasy adventures set in the Wilderlands, the PCs are still low level and so far they've not even got plate armour yet. King Anoethin of Modron rewarded them for the rescue of his daughter Princess Philomena with half the gold in his personal treasury, which (using the official Modron book from Judges Guild) worked out as a whopping 293 gp per PC!!