Rant: Dungeon "Turd" & Indie games

elfandghost · January 18, 2015, 01:40:24 PM

For the past few Saturdays someone new to the group has been "DMing" Dungeonworld, or to be more precise - Dungeon Turd. I have never played such an awful fucking game. We will not be playing such a game again; I've vetoed the game due to grumblings from everyone else. I know this has been deemed an RPG, I'm not sure if that! :mad:

Is it wrong to suggest that any game played within the 'Indie RPG' scene is also just as shit or is it the people?

snooggums · January 18, 2015, 01:43:34 PM

You didn't like a game and you are asking if people who like the game are shit because they do like the game?

Seems like quite a leap.

Just Another Snake Cult · January 18, 2015, 01:45:54 PM

What exactly turns you off about it? Tone or rules? What rules?

Not trying to troll, nobody around here plays it, so I'm only aware of it from it's vague reputation as a sort of D&D for people who hate D&D.

elfandghost · January 18, 2015, 01:46:59 PM

Quote from: snooggums;810442You didn't like a game and you are asking if people who like the game are shit because they do like the game?

Seems like quite a leap.

Hence a rant.

elfandghost · January 18, 2015, 01:49:17 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;810443What exactly turns you off about it? Tone or rules? What rules?

Not trying to troll, nobody around here plays it, so I'm only aware of it from it's vague reputation as a sort of D&D for people who hate D&D.

Perhaps it is aimed at people have never played before. I found it insulting. I found it boring, against roleplaying, gamey. Mostly it is every action having to belong to predefined aspects, 'story' created as you go along.

Future Villain Band · January 18, 2015, 01:51:16 PM

I really enjoyed Dungeon World, and didn't find anything objectionable about it. We played for about a year, and had a great time in a Thieves' World setting. I think the integrated rules as moves on the character sheet is probably this decade's big innovation, and I can't wait for other games to pick it up.

I'm also not sure how it's "not" an RPG. I'd put Firefly and the other Margaret Weis games as a little further into "wild new theory" territory than I'd put Dungeon World.

rawma · January 18, 2015, 01:58:26 PM

Quote from: elfandghost;810441For the past few Saturdays someone new to the group has been "DMing" Dungeonworld, or to be more precise - Dungeon Turd. I have never played such an awful fucking game. We will not be playing such a game again; I've vetoed the game due to grumblings from everyone else. I know this has been deemed an RPG, I'm not sure if that! :mad:

Hmm. New guy is bad at GMing; existing group has different preferences; existing group has different expectations; new games is just new; new guy is just new.

Nope, no other explanation is possible. The game itself must be bad.

QuoteIs it wrong to suggest that any game played within the 'Indie RPG' scene is also just as shit or is it the people?

By the same reasoning, the games and the people and the scene are each the singular thing that is bad.

elfandghost · January 18, 2015, 02:03:51 PM

Quote from: rawma;810451Hmm. New guy is bad at GMing; existing group has different preferences; existing group has different expectations; new games is just new; new guy is just new.

Nope, no other explanation is possible. The game itself must be bad.

By the same reasoning, the games and the people and the scene are each the singular thing that is bad.

Except we've never had a problem before and we are ready to forgive new GMs. All of us have never disliked a game so much before. Nonetheless I do take some of your points; we like gritty games, realistic games and play more often than not established games with support.

robiswrong · January 18, 2015, 02:06:39 PM

With conversations like this, I'd *really* like to sit down and watch how the game is played by groups that like it, and groups that hate it.

I know a lot of the Fate criticisms I've seen do not reflect anything that I've ever seen in my time playing the game. When we have a bad experience playing a game, there's so much room for interpretation of the game rules, etc., that I'd really like to get a better understanding of what the people complaining actually experienced.

Necrozius · January 18, 2015, 02:37:25 PM

Dungeon World actually got me back into D&D and OSR games. Not in a bad way, just as an interesting change of how I think of GMing. I doubt that I'll ever play Apocalypse World or any of its spawn again, but they did open my eyes to some things I hadn't considered before.

All of my peers love it too, and they come from wildly different gaming backgrounds (none of them are hipsters or whatever). So to each their own, I suppose.

rawma · January 18, 2015, 02:43:16 PM

Quote from: elfandghost;810454Except we've never had a problem before and we are ready to forgive new GMs. All of us have never disliked a game so much before. Nonetheless I do take some of your points; we like gritty games, realistic games and play more often than not established games with support.

Dungeon World does sound like a very bad match for your group. I've only played Monster World (and ran it once because the GM wanted to play), and it was OK; but I can see why other people would hate it.

So, does the new guy fit in otherwise? How long was he in the group before asking to run Dungeon World? Did he quit when the rest of you decided not to play it ever again?

3rik · January 18, 2015, 02:54:32 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;810443Not trying to troll, nobody around here plays it, so I'm only aware of it from its vague reputation as a sort of D&D for people who hate D&D.

To me it comes across more as a game aimed at emulating "old school fantasy", allowing the "indie"/Forgy crowd to play "old school" without losing their "indie"/Forge cred. However, the authors may well not have intended it like that and I get that there's also "non-indie" people playing and enjoying the game.

3rik · January 18, 2015, 03:05:22 PM

Quote from: Future Villain Band;810448I think the integrated rules as moves on the character sheet is probably this decade's big innovation.

To me the Moves are similar enough to the list of prescribed - or suggested? - stats+modifiers to roll for certain combat manoeuvres or specific tasks you find in many other RPG books, that I don't consider them particularly innovative.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;810448I'm also not sure how it's "not" an RPG.

Yeah, I agree it *is* an RPG. Not one I find particularly appealing, but an RPG nonetheless. Even Pundit thought so!

elfandghost · January 18, 2015, 03:21:53 PM

Quote from: 3rik;810468To me the Moves are similar enough to the list of prescribed - or suggested? - stats+modifiers to roll for certain combat manoeuvres or specific tasks you find in many other RPG books, that I don't consider them particularly innovative.

Yeah, I agree it *is* an RPG. Not one I find particularly appealing, but an RPG nonetheless. Even Pundit thought so!

My main gripe with DW, FATE et al. is there attempt to fix something that isn't broken and making it far worse. I just don't get them.

Ladybird · January 18, 2015, 03:29:05 PM

Quote from: 3rik;810468To me the Moves are similar enough to the list of prescribed - or suggested? - stats+modifiers to roll for certain combat manoeuvres or specific tasks you find in many other RPG books, that I don't consider them particularly innovative.

They're not trying to be innovative in and of themselves, though. They're just rules being presented in a different way to other RPG's.

Really, there's very little in DW that's trying to be innovative; it's simply trying to be clear about when to use it's component parts and when not to.