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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Reviews => Topic started by: jeff37923 on July 13, 2013, 10:55:50 PM

Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on July 13, 2013, 10:55:50 PM
This is a review of Traveller5, which was funded through this Traveller5 kickstarter. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/traveller5/traveller-5th-edition) I participated in this kickstarter and have been involved in the playtest for this RPG, hence my own review may be considered biased by the reader.

Traveller5 is not the RPG that it could have been.

Actually, Traveller5 is not the RPG it should be, yet.

Ronald Reagan used to tell the parable of two little boys - one an optimist, the other a pessimist. The pessimist was placed in a room full of toys and he whined and cried continually saying that there was nothing to play with. In contrast, the optimist was placed in a room full of horse crap. The optimist was happily digging away in the manure. When asked why he was so happy, he said: "There's got to be a pony in here somewhere!"

I'm an optimist about Traveller5. We'll get to the pony later on.

Physically, Traveller5 is a large hardbound tome of 658 pages. It is larger than my Pathfinder Core Rules, of equal size as my copy of Ptolus, and has slightly better bullet stopping capabilities than my last phone book. The interior is mostly black-and-white priting on white paper with several pages of color prints in the back. The binding is exceptional, better than my Pathfinder Core Rules in fact.

In keeping with the tradition of Classic Traveller, the illustrations are spartan. Most of the book is taken up by rules, very densely written rules. The scope and breadth of the rules are astounding, an incredibly daring attempt at covering everything the author felt was important.

Unfortunately, one of those things was not proofreading or editing. There are spelling errors throughout the book, simple ones which could have been solved by running the documant through spell check. Then there are the proofing errors, sometimes it is misplacing the example armor's defense against certain types of attacks thus causing anarchy in the blogosphere (for example cloth armor has an armor value of 1 against bullets and 14 against EMP) and sometimes it is confusing the V0 system for V1 or V2 (there is no V0 system, and the V1 system is for NPCs only and optional). This makes some of the most important rules a hash and damn near unuseable.

And those rules themselves are what makes Traveller5 potentially great. Well, there are the Makers. GunMaker makes guns and just about any other kind of ranged weapon. BladeMaker makes melee weapons. ArmorMaker makes all kinds of armor and shields. ThingMaker makes the rest of the equipment that a Player could possibly want. Tech level goes up into the TL=33 range (the technological singularity), so super high technology can be extrapolated. BeastMaker creates critters of all shapes and sizes and ecological niches. VehicleMaker creates everything from horse-drawn carriages to ship's boats. Characters can be created as natural (with a system for determining characteristics of offspring from parents), robots, clones, or bioilogical constructs. Sophonts (Traveller for alien races) allows you to create almost any possible alien race that is biologically imagineable. Starships are given eight possible drive systems in two categories and use the same Maker-like system which allows each component (maneuver, jump, power, sensors, weapons, defenses) to be specifically designed. Stars and worlds allows you to craft star systems, subsectors, sectors, and include systemic mapping for those places. Computers and consoles and the accompanying personalities and brains chapter cover everything cyberpunk and transhuman you could possibly desire. Robots shows you how to build your own robots. Trade and Commerce allows you to play the classic mode of ethically challenged merchant. To top it all off, each Maker has a section allowing you to randomly roll outcomes from it instead of picking and choosing.

The downside being that the Makers have editing problems, as mentioned above. However, most of their output is compatable with the rules.

In all good conscience, with a cover price of $75, I cannot recommend this book for purchase. It has been poorly produced and is not worth the money for the average gamer. Your $75 can be better spent elsewhere.

With that said, I can now show you the pony.

Having invested their time, effort, and money into this game - the community of Traveller gamers at the Citizens of the Imperium forum are working with Marc Miller and the playtesters to compile Errata  (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/forumdisplay.php?f=23)for Traveller5 to ensure that the game works.

I have never seen that before. Usually if a bad version of a popular game comes out, people will be rushing to trash it in private and in public, typically because of some past real or imagined slight. But to try and fix what is considered broken? To band together and make a bad product better? I will and have gladly joined with a group of fans dedicated to doing just that.

Traveller5 is currently not worth its cover price.

Traveller5 will be worth more once we get done with it.

This is a link to the latest Errata File. (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/misc.php?do=showattachments&t=29549)
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Zachary The First on July 14, 2013, 04:31:35 AM
Seems like a fair review, Jeff. Thanks for posting it. It sounds like the game wasn't quite ready for primetime, but the Maker systems and tech levels sound neat. How in-depth do they go into the tech levels.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on July 14, 2013, 08:09:03 AM
Quote from: Zachary The First;670740
Seems like a fair review, Jeff. Thanks for posting it. It sounds like the game wasn't quite ready for primetime, but the Maker systems and tech levels sound neat. How in-depth do they go into the tech levels.


Tech levels are treated with a fair amount of depth, they have their own chapter on Technology, but it is done with a depth of slightly greater than Classic Traveller but with greater depth for the new tech levels and what they mean.

There are a tremendous amount of Good Ideas in Traveller5, but many of them need a bit of work before they can be fully realised.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Spinachcat on July 14, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
So the Kickstarter patrons paid $75 for a playtest document and after the fan base (what's left of them) does all the playtesting, editing and reworking of the rules, then everyone in the KS is going to get a free copy to replace their "ashcan edition"?

Or will they be paying an additional $75?

There isn't any justification for spelling mistakes. There is no real justification for proofreading or editing errors because I am quite sure all these fans who are proofing the game now would have done so quite happily before T5 was sent to the printer.  

And as for selling an un-playtested game? That's idiotic, but somehow acceptable in RPGland whereas that shit don't fly in other game genres.

Shame. The Maker rules sounded interesting.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on July 14, 2013, 06:13:03 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;670849
So the Kickstarter patrons paid $75 for a playtest document and after the fan base (what's left of them) does all the playtesting, editing and reworking of the rules, then everyone in the KS is going to get a free copy to replace their "ashcan edition"?

Or will they be paying an additional $75?


Probably not in answer to both of your ascerbic trolling questions. However, you weren't looking for an honest answer, were you?

Quote from: Spinachcat;670849
There isn't any justification for spelling mistakes. There is no real justification for proofreading or editing errors because I am quite sure all these fans who are proofing the game now would have done so quite happily before T5 was sent to the printer.  

And as for selling an un-playtested game? That's idiotic, but somehow acceptable in RPGland whereas that shit don't fly in other game genres.

Shame. The Maker rules sounded interesting.


The playtest lasted about 10 years for this, actually.

Oh, they are interesting. So much so that I am helping with the Errata files.

Now, since you have gotten your digs in to bolster your ego, why don't you come and join in our effort to fix things? I'm pretty sure that you didn't bother to be a part of the Kickstarter, because you really aren't that interested in Traveller, so you do not have a stake in this. But it would be something to do with your gaming life that wasn't just a petty sneer on a forum.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on July 14, 2013, 06:23:58 PM
Something I was not going to add to the Review was that the one thing which encapsulates the problems with this project is in a chapter of Traveller5 itself.

The chapter on dice roll mechanics used to justify the roll under system preferred by Marc Miller is brilliant as a proof in probability mathematics and how they effect die rolls in gaming. However, the premise is flawed not in its approach to math, but in its approach to people. Most people find a roll under system like in Traveller4 or Traveller5 to be counter-intuitive, and thus find roll over systems more familiar and easy to learn.

Problems with Traveller5 have more to do with people and execution than with the actual rules.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Spinachcat on July 16, 2013, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;670878
pretty sure that you didn't bother to be a part of the Kickstarter, because you really aren't that interested in Traveller, so you do not have a stake in this.


As one of the only GMs in California who runs Traveller at conventions, as I have for the past 30 years, I suspect I'm plenty interested in Traveller.  The lack of Traveller at cons has always surprised me since CT especially is perfect for one shots with new players. But sadly, I don't think there is a handful of active GMs in the state who play Trav outside their house.

I did not join the KS because I wasted money on T4. That game was a half-assed disappointment (with lots of bright points) and nothing in the T5 KS promo lead me to believe that things were going to be better this time around.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on July 16, 2013, 04:32:17 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;671126
As one of the only GMs in California who runs Traveller at conventions, as I have for the past 30 years, I suspect I'm plenty interested in Traveller.  The lack of Traveller at cons has always surprised me since CT especially is perfect for one shots with new players. But sadly, I don't think there is a handful of active GMs in the state who play Trav outside their house

I did not join the KS because I wasted money on T4. That game was a half-assed disappointment (with lots of bright points) and nothing in the T5 KS promo lead me to believe that things were going to be better this time around.


So you come in and gloat over the percieved misfortune of people who were involved in the Traveller5 Kickstarter, but you get really sensitive when called on it. Why? Were you expecting to be congratulated for being an asshole? While getting the pony, I'll be sure to send you some horseapples in thanks.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: danbuter on July 16, 2013, 09:25:00 AM
Jeff, you're way too defensive about this. It was a great review, though.

My biggest thing is the makers. Could you post how they work, exactly? Your review is very opaque about them, other than they make stuff.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on July 16, 2013, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: danbuter;671167
Jeff, you're way too defensive about this.


Maybe so, but I will treat assholes like they are acting.

Quote from: danbuter;671167
It was a great review, though.


Thank you.

Quote from: danbuter;671167
My biggest thing is the makers. Could you post how they work, exactly? Your review is very opaque about them, other than they make stuff.


The approach is slightly different for each Maker. Most of them are designed so that every added descriptor you place on a base form changes the characteristics of that item. The closest thing I can relate it to is the advanced design system from Mekton Zeta. So that a Pistol-1 fires a bullet that does 1D of damage at pistol ranges while an Advanced Pistol-1 fires a bullet that does 2D damage at pistol ranges and a Silenced Advanced Pistol-1 fires a sound supressed bullet that does 2D damage at pistol ranges.

The sector/subsector/star system/world generator allows either choosing characteristics or random rolling to create worlds, so it is closer to the original system from Classic Traveller. The system allows for creation of larger worlds (up to size 15 or 20) and uses flux (1D-1D) instead of 2D-7 for the random modifier which creates fewer outliers. I personally like the more prevalent outliers because they make more interesting worlds.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dungeon crawler on August 04, 2013, 08:20:15 PM
Thank you for a honest review. I intend to pick up a copy in September because I love the Traveller line. Right now I just can't swing it.
Title: Too bad for me
Post by: rafaelsmoreno on August 05, 2013, 02:40:45 PM
Well, I am a long time role player, being in the game since 1994 (mostly GURPS, AD&D and Shadowrun). I love sci-fi, cyberpunk, space opera, and I thought getting the new Traveller5 to start with the system a good idea. Apparently, I was wrong. What would be the easiest path to get a campaign on the run? Getting rid of Traveller 5 and jumping in Gurps 3rd edition Traveller? Gurps 4th? I find the scenario amazing, but learning the new system seem to be a cumbersome task for veterans, and I am a newbie on that. Any hints?
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on August 06, 2013, 03:03:42 PM
Quote from: rafaelsmoreno;677518
Well, I am a long time role player, being in the game since 1994 (mostly GURPS, AD&D and Shadowrun). I love sci-fi, cyberpunk, space opera, and I thought getting the new Traveller5 to start with the system a good idea. Apparently, I was wrong. What would be the easiest path to get a campaign on the run? Getting rid of Traveller 5 and jumping in Gurps 3rd edition Traveller? Gurps 4th? I find the scenario amazing, but learning the new system seem to be a cumbersome task for veterans, and I am a newbie on that. Any hints?


Sorry, I haven't been paying close attention to this thread so ther was a delay.

If you are just getting started there are a few options available. The approaches I recommend the highest are using DriveThruRPG and downloading Starter Traveller  (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/80190/CT-ST-Starter-Traveller)( a free basic version of the original Classic Traveller), on the same website download the free Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/58279/Book-Zero-Introduction-to-Traveller?term=book+0+) for Mongoose Traveller (a backwards compatable in print version of Traveller currently available). Those two will give you a good overview of the roots of the Traveller system. When you are comfortable with spending money, I would suggest either the Mongoose Traveller Core Rules or the Classic Traveller CD-ROM from Far Future Enterprises.

GURPS 3rd Traveller is available primarily as a PDF from SJGs and I consider it to be better than GURPS 4th Traveller which is intimately tied to the Interstellar Wars era of the OTU. These will also cost some money.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: rafaelsmoreno on August 07, 2013, 10:37:55 AM
Thanks for the hints! Just downloaded the Starter Traveller :)

Quote from: jeff37923;677991
Sorry, I haven't been paying close attention to this thread so ther was a delay.

If you are just getting started there are a few options available. The approaches I recommend the highest are using DriveThruRPG and downloading Starter Traveller  (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/80190/CT-ST-Starter-Traveller)( a free basic version of the original Classic Traveller), on the same website download the free Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/58279/Book-Zero-Introduction-to-Traveller?term=book+0+) for Mongoose Traveller (a backwards compatable in print version of Traveller currently available). Those two will give you a good overview of the roots of the Traveller system. When you are comfortable with spending money, I would suggest either the Mongoose Traveller Core Rules or the Classic Traveller CD-ROM from Far Future Enterprises.

GURPS 3rd Traveller is available primarily as a PDF from SJGs and I consider it to be better than GURPS 4th Traveller which is intimately tied to the Interstellar Wars era of the OTU. These will also cost some money.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: David Johansen on August 07, 2013, 08:29:12 PM
Really the Kickstarter proved to be a problem and is probably responsible for the erratta levels.

Marc Miller has a long history of underestimating how long things are going to take.  The kickstarter put pressure on to get the book out the door and even though it was late, it simply wasn't late enough.

The other source of complaints is the very nature of the book.  It's a tool box for building universes not a complete roleplaying game with a detailed setting.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Imperator on August 08, 2013, 03:13:47 AM
Great review. Very honest.

I feel that the result is that many efforts have been missplaced (for example, the lack of an editor) and some results are brilliant (the Makers, which intrigue me to no end. I'd love to see an example of the process of making something).

I'll stick to MongTrav for now and wait for the errata.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Warthur on August 08, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
Will there be a revised printing that incorporates the errata? Navigating a document the size of T5 already sounds like a challenge, navigating that plus an errata document which could well by the end of the process be pretty damn chunky in its own right pushes this firmly into "thanks, but no thanks" territory.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on August 08, 2013, 01:16:12 PM
Quote from: Imperator;678769
I'll stick to MongTrav for now and wait for the errata.


This is the most logical route to me on Traveller5. The errata document has gotten another revision and it is already 11 pages with more to come.

Quote from: Warthur;678816
Will there be a revised printing that incorporates the errata?


I do not know. That will depend on Marc Miller himself. There may very well not be a second printing of this book.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Warthur on August 09, 2013, 07:00:27 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;678965
I do not know. That will depend on Marc Miller himself. There may very well not be a second printing of this book.

'fraid I'll probably have to wait and see then; as much as it'd be nice to get a functional version of T5 I'm past the stage where I have the patience to pencil in all the errata you guys come up with.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Brad on August 11, 2013, 09:01:19 PM
Finally read the whole book...I think the review is accurate. There's a lot to like with this version, but it needs work to become a viable game.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on October 20, 2013, 12:38:00 PM
After looking through the book the situation is that it isn't a game.  It is an unfinished, unedited manuscript of what, someday, might turn into a complete game.  However, the kickstarter probably made enough $ for Marc so that he can retire for good...
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 21, 2013, 11:16:01 AM
Marc is retired for good; he is a grandfather in his mid-60's. The KS wasn't that much money.

T5 has merely cemented the whole - "Q: what is the worst thing about Traveller? A: It's the players."

People argue too much about nothing: jump-torps, pirates and near c rocks, oh my.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on October 21, 2013, 11:55:24 AM
Quote from: dragoner;701642
Marc is retired for good; he is a grandfather in his mid-60's. The KS wasn't that much money.


It was a bout $300,000.  A fraction of that was used for merchandize.The remainder went into his retirement.

Better now?
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on October 21, 2013, 12:21:43 PM
Quote from: Arduin;701649
It was a bout $300,000.  A fraction of that was used for merchandize.The remainder went into his retirement.

Better now?


I love it when a clueless fuck drops in here. If most of the Kickstarter funds went into this imaginary retirement fund, then none of the T5 books would have been printed or shipped out.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on October 21, 2013, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;701659
I love it when a clueless fuck drops in here.

You really like yourself? Your vocabulary does not belie your intelligence....
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 21, 2013, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Arduin;701649
It was a bout $300,000.


Which isn't that much. So you have his tax records?
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Omega on October 21, 2013, 10:39:11 PM
Well figure the book costs anywhere from 10-20% of the cover price to print. Depends on the printer. Art adds a little more cost unless its retreads. Shipping might add 1-5%. Not sure what shipping would be for a book that big. I cant see the shipping as being 25$.

So 11-25% goes to production. KS takes their cut (5%?) So he could have pocketed 200k, possibly as low as a mere 100k depending on the factors. If retailers had been involved then it would drop to 1/2 that nearly.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on October 22, 2013, 05:39:13 AM
People, the T5 Kickstarter is not the Dwimmermount Kickstarter. While I cannot say that the end product is good (I gave it a rating of 3 out of 10 in this review), that is a fuck of a long way away from the slanderous and libelous accusation that Marc Miller used the Kickstarter to fund his retirement and has squirrelled away the money. Stop the character assassination, it is without grounds. All that is being done is spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about a man who has helped this hobby far more than it has been acknowledged.

Get a fucking grip already.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Omega on October 22, 2013, 09:04:55 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;701885
People, the T5 Kickstarter is not the Dwimmermount Kickstarter. While I cannot say that the end product is good (I gave it a rating of 3 out of 10 in this review), that is a fuck of a long way away from the slanderous and libelous accusation that Marc Miller used the Kickstarter to fund his retirement and has squirrelled away the money. Stop the character assassination, it is without grounds. All that is being done is spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about a man who has helped this hobby far more than it has been acknowledged.

Get a fucking grip already.

Im just pointing out the cost factors from when I was self publishing. Players all too often forget that the gaming biz is not cheap. But. The cost of the book is steep vs the likely printing cost plus shipping.

Also... Of course he pocketed some of the cash. Well duh! Thats the whole point of publishing a game.

But depending on factors. It may not have been as much as some wrongly assume.

I do though think he was possibly vastly overcharging by using retail price instead of something more reasonable. On that he does deserve to be called out on. But so do many many other KS games and products.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on October 22, 2013, 01:11:29 PM
Quote from: Omega;701842

So 11-25% goes to production. KS takes their cut (5%?) So he could have pocketed 200k,

It was a little over $200k
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 22, 2013, 01:11:34 PM
Don't forget the hookers and blow, that isn't cheap.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Omega on October 24, 2013, 12:02:36 AM
Quote from: Arduin;701962
It was a little over $200k

Actually it was 6k short of 300k. 294k as of close.

So KS took 5% so then that is I believe about 14k gone there.

And I just looked at the FLGS pack. Yes, he knew he was charging the KS retail prices since he offered the FLGS supporters about standard of 40% off the retail price.

That means the books at max cost 45$ and you can bet they didnt cost that much. Possibly as high as 35 all total though before shipping. Its a big book.

So Mark possibly pocketed about 164k minimum after KS by gouging the backers Retail 75$ instead of at least Gross 45$. Unless something is horribly wrong with his production costs then as a game designer and former publisher I am a bit disappointed in Mark. Were it not for the tell-tale of the FLGS I would just assumed it was standard designer not knowing the factors. That is fairly common actually.

Now to be fair. It is possible Mark totally screwed it on printing costs in which case the book could cost upwards of 60$ and he just took a hit to offer the game to retailers.

In the end though its done and more or less over aside from fixing the rules/formatting errors. Good game. Poor choices made in production.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on October 24, 2013, 12:34:42 PM
Quote from: Omega;702425
Actually it was 6k short of 300k.

I'm not talking about gross receipts on KS.  I'm also adding in orders he took after K.S. but before delivery of product.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on October 24, 2013, 01:52:21 PM
And you two are calculating all this without once pulling your heads out of your asses, an astonishing feat in the annuls of Gross Conceptual Error.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Omega on October 24, 2013, 09:39:02 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;702555
And you two are calculating all this without once pulling your heads out of your asses, an astonishing feat in the annuls of Gross Conceptual Error.


No. I'm talking from a small time publisher viewpoint and from working with others on publishing and the baser facts of assembling a book like that. Unless he got totally taken to the cleaners by a printer a 600page book should have cost less than half his retail fee. It has to cost less than half otherwise you are loosing money every sale to a retailer.

And he shows he is aware of the retailer factor.

From there there are a few possible interpretations.
He gouged the backers. "Hey! Other companies get away with it!" is not an acceptable answer.

He got gouged by the printer. If he has no experience with the publishing side of the production then this could be an acceptable answer.

He is willingly taking a hit at retailer level. Which is a perfectly acceptable answer as it appears to be a small group rather than a straight up one. Others have done that too.

He really did not know better. "Wait? You mean we could have printed the book at half the cost for the same quality?" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

With a simple 5 minute search I had two printers who should have been able to do a book that size and probably equal or better quality for about 48$. One that could have done it for 24$ but not sure on quality. And that after being out of the publishing biz since 2000.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 24, 2013, 11:22:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;702555
And you two are calculating all this without once pulling your heads out of your asses, an astonishing feat in the annuls of Gross Conceptual Error.


Pretty much, and not conversant at how business is done. Though Marc did pile on a bunch of extras in the Kickstarter. Next two books I have heard talked about is a players manual and an adventure called the Galaxiad set in the Far Far Future.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on October 25, 2013, 03:34:12 AM
Quote from: Omega;702687
No. I'm talking from a small time publisher viewpoint and from working with others on publishing and the baser facts of assembling a book like that. Unless he got totally taken to the cleaners by a printer a 600page book should have cost less than half his retail fee. It has to cost less than half otherwise you are loosing money every sale to a retailer.

And he shows he is aware of the retailer factor.

From there there are a few possible interpretations.
He gouged the backers. "Hey! Other companies get away with it!" is not an acceptable answer.

He got gouged by the printer. If he has no experience with the publishing side of the production then this could be an acceptable answer.

He is willingly taking a hit at retailer level. Which is a perfectly acceptable answer as it appears to be a small group rather than a straight up one. Others have done that too.

He really did not know better. "Wait? You mean we could have printed the book at half the cost for the same quality?" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

With a simple 5 minute search I had two printers who should have been able to do a book that size and probably equal or better quality for about 48$. One that could have done it for 24$ but not sure on quality. And that after being out of the publishing biz since 2000.


You forgot to factor in the cost of shipping and handling.

Regardless of which, it is still a Hell of a stretch to go from that to "Marc Miller swindled the Kickstarter to fund his retirement" as Arduin the Troll has claimed.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Omega on October 25, 2013, 07:16:09 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;702740
You forgot to factor in the cost of shipping and handling.

Regardless of which, it is still a Hell of a stretch to go from that to "Marc Miller swindled the Kickstarter to fund his retirement" as Arduin the Troll has claimed.


Actually I did mention shipping as an unknown quantity. It likely is not 25$ though.

I dont think he swindled the backers. But if the actual cost was at industry standards and he charged retail. Then he did gouge the backers.

For comparison the 3.5e DMG is over 300 pages and retails just short of 30$ for a high quality hardbound. After retailer cut WOTC gets 18$. The book probably cost 6$ to print and 4$ more to ship. (I'm guessing on the shipping)
Leaving 8$ profit Some of which went into production so figure 6$ left.
Now if WOTC sold the book direct and no retailer for 30$ they would be making 18$ a book after production costs. Possibly tripple the profit by making the backer cover retail fee when there is no retailer or fee. Akin to people charging hardback prices for PDFs.

You see it now and then on KS. Sometimes it slips by, sometimes backers just say no.

Honestly I'd rather believe he gouged the backers, intentionally or without thinking, and spun it back into extra product and bonuses. If he pocketed 100k then great.

This rather than the alternative being that he totally botched handling production and just lined the pockets of some printer.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 25, 2013, 11:03:11 AM
Nobody would think 15 dollars off the cover price as being gouged, that's stupid; esp so in that nobody has a clue how much anything actually did cost.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 25, 2013, 11:04:55 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;702740
You forgot to factor in the cost of shipping and handling.

Regardless of which, it is still a Hell of a stretch to go from that to "Marc Miller swindled the Kickstarter to fund his retirement" as Arduin the Troll has claimed.


Omega is trolling as well, jealous of Marc's success imo. Which is most of the criticism of T5.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on October 25, 2013, 12:21:21 PM
Quote from: dragoner;702816
Omega is trolling as well, jealous of Marc's success imo. Which is most of the criticism of T5.


I don't try to understand anymore. It just isn't lonely at the top, there are hundreds of griefers out there nibbling at a man's ankles like minnows.

I think there is some valid criticism for T5, most of it though has not been valid - it has been more along the lines of "Traveller touched me in a naughty place."
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 25, 2013, 12:56:16 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;702837
I don't try to understand anymore. It just isn't lonely at the top, there are hundreds of griefers out there nibbling at a man's ankles like minnows.

I think there is some valid criticism for T5, most of it though has not been valid - it has been more along the lines of "Traveller touched me in a naughty place."


Yes there are valid criticisms of T5, but that isn't what is being done, instead it's losers taking shots at Marc; so in fact it just makes everything worse by stopping any real conversation, such as say about the mechanics of the game.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Omega on October 25, 2013, 09:35:11 PM
Quote from: dragoner;702814
Nobody would think 15 dollars off the cover price as being gouged, that's stupid; esp so in that nobody has a clue how much anything actually did cost.


Sorry, no. We are talking about possibly more than 39$ off the cover price as gouging.
But it depends a-lot on the printing fee.
As said. A baser check with printers got me a few good quotes ranging from the aformentioned 48$ down to about 24$ with some effort or lower quality paper. And If I still had my connections from the 90s I could drop that a bit further without sacrificing too much quality. Shipping and handling of course adds back on.

Now to put this in perspective. A quick quote without any effort got me a 600 page book for the aformentioned 48$. Retail the book would have to cost 67$ just to break even. S&H bumps it up to say 80$ maybee 85$ even.
15-20$ cheaper at rank amature level effort. And since there is no actual retailer cut. That is a 34-39$ profit per book if I priced it at the same 100$ point as T5.

As said. That is just one scenario out of several and if you'd bothered to actually read the post you would have seen I mentioned being perfectly fine with the gouging since it rolls back into more backer bonuses and more product and Mark makes a little or a-lot of profit off it.

Yes it is speculation. But it is speculation based on research and past hands on experience with getting a book out and dealing with all the hassles and quirks entailed.

Am I jealous? No. I expect better from a designer with years of professional experience over me. A nothing like me should not be outperforming him. Mark should be making a big profit off this.

I simply do not agree with making the backers possibly cover retail fee when they should not. Assuming all guesses are close to the actuality. I have allready pointed out there is more than one possibility. I could just as easily be dead wrong.

And at the end of the day you payed your money and got your book. A huge book. Hopefully with some extras. If you are happy with what you got then wether or not you got overcharged is irrelevant for you. You might have even willingly payed that extra just to support a great game designer.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on October 25, 2013, 10:21:00 PM
Quote from: Omega;702986
Now to put this in perspective.

Yes it is speculation.


I should just leave it at this, but the key here is that your speculation is based on the trolling idea from Arduin that the T5 Kickstarter was done to line Marc Miller's pockets. There is no evidence of this.

Without solid numbers, the rest is just a math exercise.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on October 26, 2013, 02:43:08 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;702992
I should just leave it at this, but the key here is that your speculation is based on the trolling idea from Arduin that the T5 Kickstarter was done to line Marc Miller's pockets. There is no evidence of this.

Without solid numbers, the rest is just a math exercise.


It is just all a bunch of nothing.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on November 08, 2013, 12:27:26 PM
Looks like some kind of "players guide" is in the works.  It's going to have to actually be edited (unlike the T5 book backers received) and not be an unfinished manuscript if T5 is not to die within a year of its launch.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: atpollard on November 13, 2013, 11:32:32 AM
Greetings,

At the risk of derailing the discussion of 'profit margins and production costs' :)
I thought that I would share some opinions on T5.

First Opinion:
$75 is too darn expensive, but $35 for the T5 CD is much better.
This has nothing to do with 'fair market value' or any allegation of gouging - I am just cheap (err, I meant frugal).

Seriously, if you bundled every Mongoose Traveller Book in print and sold it as one giant tome for $75, it would be a great value compared to purchasing all those books separately, but $75 would still be too high an initial investment to try a new game and see if you like it. Perhaps the rumored 'T5 Player's Book' will address that issue.


Second Opinion:
Setting aside all of the criticism about layout and spelling and indexes and organization, I don't like the rules themselves. I play Classic Traveller (CT), MegaTraveller (MT), Mongoose Traveller (MgT) and dabble with Traveller The New Era (TNE). What I like about all of my favorite versions is the basic simplicity of the "Roll 8+ on 2D6" mechanic that is the core of all those versions. My criticism of the "Roll low on a fistful of dice" mechanic is not the counter-intuitive nature of rolling low, it is the quirks inherent in how the mechanics works ... the issues with critical success being more likely for harder tasks being a typical example of a variable dice issue.

In contrast, 2D6 generates an easy to understand probability curve that is relatively intuitive. The great 'weakness' of a 2D6 system is that it is easily broken by too many modifiers. A simple +/-1 is a big deal, +/-2 is huge and +/-3 is close to an automatic success or failure. This has traditionally been viewed as a weakness, since players love their splat books of new modifiers waiting to be min/maxed. I view it as the core strength of the 2D6 system. It makes 2D6 my system of choice for an "I don't want to get bogged down in long lists of sub-skills and circumstantial modifiers, I want to throw a quick dice and get on with the role playing" type of game.

So even if the T5 book cost $10 and was perfect in every way (from a publishing perspective), I would still pass on it.


Third Opinion:
There are two broad schools of thought for what a the rules used to design stuff should be like.

At one extreme in the Traveller world is Fire, Fusion and Steel (TNE) which begins the rules for designing a gun with creating a bullet and calculating its ideal muzzle energy. Let's call this the 'Simulation Approach' - when it comes to detail, too much is not enough. The down side is that the Simulation Approach takes lots of time and, unless you really like math, isn't much fun (an under appreciated down side is that as the number of steps and complexity increases, so does the chance of making an error). The advantage of the Simulation Approach is that you can create real world items and extrapolate an almost infinite number of variations.

I personally find the Simulation Approach useful when I want to design something that is fairly out of the box in nature. For example, I can use some of the Laser Design Rules to create a short range pulse laser that will fit into the handle of a knife, and the Blade Design Rules to create a Combat Knife with a slot down the center of the blade, and combine the two into a 'Space Marine Laser Combat Knife'. I find it a benefit to design stuff in real world units ... cm, kg, joules.

At the other extreme in the Traveller world is the revised Vehicles book for MgT and the T5 Makers, where the focus is on the final game mechanics and to heck with the extraneous details. For a gun, this would mean starting with a generic type (like a pistol) and adding adjectives that alter the final game mechanics (large, advanced) to create a Large, Advanced Pistol with X/Y/Z game stats. The advantage is that it is a fast system to use. The disadvantage is the loss of lots of chrome ... I no longer have a "44 magnum revolver, the most powerful handgun in the world" (Dirty Harry quote), I just have a Revolver, Large.

I suspect that the Maker's will appeal to many, but not to a gearhead like me.


Conclusion:
I wish T5 well, but like GURPS Traveller and T20 Traveller, it is not the rules set for me.
If you disagree with all of my opinions, then T5 may be the game of your dreams. ;)
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Brad on November 18, 2013, 08:39:37 AM
Probably not the place for this question, but posting it here anyway.

Are there any plans for a REAL 5th edition slated to be released anytime soon? I spent $80 on my copy after shipping costs and sort of feel like I got gyped. Given the print quality and content, this should have been a $40 book, if that. Not complaining anymore, just would like something that didn't feel like a half-assed effort.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on November 18, 2013, 01:57:18 PM
Quote from: Brad;709389
Probably not the place for this question, but posting it here anyway.

Are there any plans for a REAL 5th edition slated to be released anytime soon? I spent $80 on my copy after shipping costs and sort of feel like I got gyped. Given the print quality and content, this should have been a $40 book, if that. Not complaining anymore, just would like something that didn't feel like a half-assed effort.


AFAIK, no there aren't any plans.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: Arduin on November 20, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;709498
AFAIK, no there aren't any plans.

Correct.  "Take the money & run" seems to have been the modus operandi rather than let's make a nice product people will want.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on November 22, 2013, 02:41:55 AM
Quote from: Arduin;710179
Correct.  "Take the money & run" seems to have been the modus operandi rather than let's make a nice product people will want.


Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: dragoner on November 22, 2013, 02:58:21 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;710781
Shine on, you crazy diamond.


He's a special snowflake.
Title: Traveller 5
Post by: jeff37923 on June 08, 2015, 12:51:31 AM
A follow up to my review of Traveller 5, the first pass at corrections is out now. It is not perfect, but it is much much better than the initial offering. It is a free download to all of the Kickstarter backers as well.

Traveller 5.09. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150646/T5-Traveller5-Core-Rules-Book-759-pages?affiliate_id=35844)